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ITT: MTG rules nit-pickingFollow

#127 Jun 06 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
Mazra wrote:
I sense that I should get rid of mine before I get sucked into another time and money consuming addiction. Virtual games are more than enough.
It's not really any different, and I haven't actively played in at least five years.

MTG: Stop playing after a while, sell your cards for more than you spent.
MMO: Stop playing after a while, sell your account to some idiot, claim the account was stolen, repeat until you get arrested for wire fraud.
#128 Jun 06 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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CestinShaman wrote:
That's a very sweet setup TLW. o.o Thanks for the tip.

The red deck that I posted was really just to get some red cards/mana for future decks/splashes, though you did it much better than I did.

Ball Lightning is a very awesome card, pricey though. I'll probably look into picking some up in the future. For the moment though, I'm going to keep attending the bi-weekly Sealed deck tournaments here. ^-^ Maybe soon I'll build a deck and go play the Standard and Extended events as well.


Google says about a buck for ball lightning.

Also, swap the scrolls for final fortune. At .20 its a steal, I thought it was going for far more so I didn't include it.


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#129 Jun 06 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
CestinShaman wrote:
That's a very sweet setup TLW. o.o Thanks for the tip.

The red deck that I posted was really just to get some red cards/mana for future decks/splashes, though you did it much better than I did.

Ball Lightning is a very awesome card, pricey though. I'll probably look into picking some up in the future. For the moment though, I'm going to keep attending the bi-weekly Sealed deck tournaments here. ^-^ Maybe soon I'll build a deck and go play the Standard and Extended events as well.


Google says about a buck for ball lightning.

Also, swap the scrolls for final fortune. At .20 its a steal, I thought it was going for far more so I didn't include it.




Why is that an instant? It seems like it would only be used as a sorcery...
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#130 Jun 06 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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Vataro wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
CestinShaman wrote:
That's a very sweet setup TLW. o.o Thanks for the tip.

The red deck that I posted was really just to get some red cards/mana for future decks/splashes, though you did it much better than I did.

Ball Lightning is a very awesome card, pricey though. I'll probably look into picking some up in the future. For the moment though, I'm going to keep attending the bi-weekly Sealed deck tournaments here. ^-^ Maybe soon I'll build a deck and go play the Standard and Extended events as well.


Google says about a buck for ball lightning.

Also, swap the scrolls for final fortune. At .20 its a steal, I thought it was going for far more so I didn't include it.




Why is that an instant? It seems like it would only be used as a sorcery...


So I can use my hilarious deck.

Final Fortune, Isochron scepter, Platinum Angel.







...And a Prodigal sorceror.
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#131 Jun 07 2010 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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oh... hilarious.
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#132 Jun 07 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Thats no more annoying than Isochron Scepter + Orims Chant tbh...

especially when you can cast that and Voltaic Key on turn 1 without a great deal of difficulty.
#133 Jun 13 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Thats no more annoying than Isochron Scepter + Orims Chant tbh...

especially when you can cast that and Voltaic Key on turn 1 without a great deal of difficulty.


Being reminded of that scepter actually makes me give weight to what gbaji is saying. That damn card is broken. In addition, it actually makes many cards you put on it broken. Why do they put out stuff like this, but there is not a colorless mox (random card idea ive always liked)...


Pertaining to my first post, I am putting together 3 all common decks and selling the rest of my collection. The red and white i made already is meannnnn. cheap flyers, swirling sandstorm and forces opponent to sacrifice, all while using landfall mechanic for insane speed. I might make a green/black landfall deck.... my conceptual diagram for it has it pumping out 5-7 lands on 3rd turn. hehehe...
#134 Jun 14 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
MDenham wrote:
No rules lawyering here; this is how it works. You have the rest of your opponent's turn to respond, unless you have something that, say, causes you to skip your draw step, in which case you have until the next time you have to draw a card for any other reason.


Yeah. I get that that's how the rules are interpreted, I still think that's a poor interpretation and I'm not sure at what time the folks running/designing MTG stopped having a clue about game design. I'm talking about how the rule should have been interpreted.
That is why im glad i only play TCGs with a small group ,of friends, where we can just house rule anything we find to be gay, and that is the gayest thing ive ever seen in a card game, even compared to the DBZ CCG where the printings are just horrible.
#135 Jun 15 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Being reminded of that scepter actually makes me give weight to what gbaji is saying. That damn card is broken. In addition, it actually makes many cards you put on it broken. Why do they put out stuff like this, but there is not a colorless mox
Scepter and Chant where never in the same type II environment, ever, they didn't need to balance Scepter with broken 2 casting cost instants because in the environment it was played in there was no broken 2 casting cost instants.

Scepter is way down the line of broken cards in Vintage and as i said before Vintage is not supposed to be balanced.

The present Type II environment has conservitably 8 decks that can be competitive with probably 5-6 other viable decks yet to be tweaked into shape.

How much more balanced do you want?
#136 Jun 15 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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tarv wrote:
Quote:
Being reminded of that scepter actually makes me give weight to what gbaji is saying. That damn card is broken. In addition, it actually makes many cards you put on it broken. Why do they put out stuff like this, but there is not a colorless mox
Scepter and Chant where never in the same type II environment, ever, they didn't need to balance Scepter with broken 2 casting cost instants because in the environment it was played in there was no broken 2 casting cost instants.

Scepter is way down the line of broken cards in Vintage and as i said before Vintage is not supposed to be balanced.

The present Type II environment has conservitably 8 decks that can be competitive with probably 5-6 other viable decks yet to be tweaked into shape.

How much more balanced do you want?

Scepter and Chant were in the same Extended environment, though. IIRC, they didn't make a huge impact, ironically. As powerful a combo they are, they're still easy to stop. A spell cast through Isochron Scepter is still played; as such, it can be countered just like any other spell. Scepter-Chant's threat is repeatability. If an opponent can't get rid of the Scepter, or stop it from coming into play in the first place, eventually you'll get a successful Orim's Chant through, and then it's pretty much game over.

Even in Vintage, Scepter-Chant's rarely been more than an annoyance. In an environment containing the Power 9 and Tolarian Academy, a turn 3 soft lock isn't really that dangerous, not to mention there are far worse things to imprint on a Scepter...

And yes, M:TG's development teams worry far more about balance in Block Constructed, Block Draft, Type II Constructed and Extended than in Vintage, and the priority is definitely on Block and Type II. Anything with a more comprehensive card pool has exponentially more possible card interactions, and there's no feasible way to test every single possible one. Some of the most broken card combos I know about involve two otherwise junk cards that someone took and said, "Hey, that works really well together!" My favorite example is Donate and Illusions of Grandeur. Taken separately, neither card is really that good. Put 'em together, though, and they can be brutal. If anyone's curious, search for a decklist for "Trix" or "Necro-pebbles" from several years ago...
#137 Jun 15 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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tarv wrote:

Scepter is way down the line of broken cards in Vintage.


It's not number 1, but I would not call it 'way down the list'. As I said before, its not so much the card itself, its the ability to break other cards.


tarv wrote:
and as i said before Vintage is not supposed to be balanced.


I disagree. It is supposed to balanced, but to a much, much lesser degree than Type II.
#138 Jun 17 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I disagree. It is supposed to balanced, but to a much, much lesser degree than Type II.
You're wrong, utterly.

Period.

54 sets and 11 core sets, it's not remotely possible to check the balance of that volume of cards and mechanics.

Don't like it? Then play Type II, which like I keep saying is very very balanced.
#139 Jun 17 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Default
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Apparently, according to your level of rudeness, you get a kick out of being 'correct'. Regardless of what you seem to believe; no, its not without attempted balance.

IF this were the case, why would unglued/unhinged not be legal in vintage?

You seem to think WoTC doesnt even give a passing thought to balance in vintage. Surely, you cannot believe this. Release yourself from this delusion.

I didnt come to argue with you on sides that are both SPECULATION at best. Continue if you must, but I surely will not be here to participate.
#140 Jun 17 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Vintage, balanced? Lol, here's a little anecdote from personal experience of just how fair that format is:

My opponent's first turn: Bazaar of Baghdad (Land, Tap: Draw 2, Discard 3 - makes no mana.)

My first turn: Play Library of Alexandria, tap to draw a card, play mox jet, tap for sol ring, play mox sapphire, tap mox and sol ring for Time Walk to take another turn.
My second turn: Tap mox sapphire to play ancestral recall and draw 3 cards, play wasteland and sacrifice it to target my opponent's land. My opponent responds by using his land to draw 2 and discard 3, leaving him with 5 cards in hand and no permanents. I then play black lotus, sacrifice black lotus, tap sol ring, and tap mox jet to play mind twist for 5, making him discard his entire hand. At this point he has put his entire hand plus a few more cards into his discard pile, and has no permanents. I have 5 mana in play and I'm holding force of will and a blue spell. (Force of will can be played for free by discarding a blue spell and paying 1 life. It is a counter spell.)

Think that's not broken? I sure thought it was, but get this. ON MY OPPONENT'S NEXT TURN HE KILLED ME!! My opponent was playing the dredge mechanic, and dredged into the perfect cards, including one cabal therapy to take my Force of Will away, which he named because it was the only card that could stop him. By the end of things I was staring at no counterspell in hand, and he was attacking me for 21 with hasted zombies.

(This was the day I quit Type 1, after all of these things happened in about a 30 min period.)

Let's cover a few other scenarios:
First turn, swamp + dark ritual + entomb (b, instant, put a card from your deck into your discard pile) - put worldgorger dragon there (when he comes into play, removal all you control but him from the game; when he leaves play, get that stuff back). With the two remaining black, play animate dead (1b, enchantment: when this comes into play, put a creature card from the graveyard into play with 1 less power; when this leaves play, put the creature back). So, Animate Dead puts Dragon into play, who then removes your land and Animate Dead from the game, so then he dies, so then your land and Animate Dead come back, so then you have 1 untapped swamp and animate dead which come into play. Tap your swamp for B. Animate dead puts dragon into play, repeat, repeat, repeat - infinite black mana on first turn without using any moxes or lotus or anything, just swamp + dark ritual + two cards. Win with spell of choice.

First turn again. You play mishra's workshop, tap it for 3 colorless which can only be used on artifacts, and play Trinisphere. Trinisphere says all spells that would cost less than 3, now cost 3. Opponent's first turn: land, done. Literally, they can do nothing else because everything costs 3 and normal people's land only makes 1. Your 2nd turn: tap workshop for crucible of worlds (this says you may play lands in your graveyard), then put down a strip mine (a land; it taps for 1, and sacrifices to destroy target land), and you destroy their land and say done. At this point, if the opponent has land they can play it... but trinisphere says they can't cast anything. However, should they play land, you will return strip mine and kill it on your turn, so it's impossible for them to ever get the 3 mana to play anything. Game over, first turn kill again, no moxes/lotus involved, again.

It goes on and on.

This format used to be my favorite format, but now Turn 1 is early game, Turn 2 is midgame, Turn 3 is lategame, and so the format is dead to me; you might as well play a game called, "Flip a Coin" in which we use a quarter to determine who goes first, then skip the entire game and simply award that person the win in whatever combo they have fashioned.

The only thing that's really got me excited about using the old cards again is a format called, "100 card singleton". This format has games that play out in a highly interesting, interactive fashion, much like the Vintage of old, but minus the crazy mana acceleration. Here's the link to the banned/restricted list, if you are interested:
100 Card Singleton

The nice thing is that this is supported on the official online version for magic, so you can build a deck and then find opponents. All cards aren't yet released online, but they are working on it, and in the meantime you still get to use things like dual lands, mana drain, berserk, necropotence, thawing glaciers, chain lightning, and other old and cool cards.

Anyway, it's fun listening to people discussing something they may not totally grasp, but with the earlier assertions getting strong and possibly becoming an argument, I thought I'd step in and add some actual information. Chao. :)
#141 Jun 18 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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NatePrawdzik wrote:
[Bunch o' broken combos]

Yes, Vintage is insanely powerful. It's not really anything that will change, unfortunately, without banning a truck-load of cards. There's a reason there's other formats, such as what used to be called type 1.5 (basically what's now called Vintage, but with actual banned cards instead of just restricted). There are very good reasons why those legacy formats aren't used in major tournaments...

On the other hand, I totally geeked out and started giggling at those insane combos you talked about... :D
NatePrawdzik wrote:
This format used to be my favorite format, but now Turn 1 is early game, Turn 2 is midgame, Turn 3 is lategame, and so the format is dead to me; you might as well play a game called, "Flip a Coin" in which we use a quarter to determine who goes first, then skip the entire game and simply award that person the win in whatever combo they have fashioned.

Now, now, they banned Chaos Orb, remember? :)
#142 Jun 18 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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TWA wrote:
Apparently, according to your level of rudeness, you get a kick out of being 'correct'. Regardless of what you seem to believe; no, its not without attempted balance.

IF this were the case, why would unglued/unhinged not be legal in vintage?

You seem to think WoTC doesnt even give a passing thought to balance in vintage. Surely, you cannot believe this. Release yourself from this delusion.

I didnt come to argue with you on sides that are both SPECULATION at best. Continue if you must, but I surely will not be here to participate.


Did you REALLY just use unglued/unhinged as an example? Really? You are just plain silly.
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