Civ VFollow
When the other guys warn you not to **** with a certain city-state, they mean it. I ignored them and the entire planet tried to declare war on me at once. (Global map, max AI players) Unfortunately, one of the AI players must go straight for your computer because the game crashes when I **** that many people off simultaneously. 
Lol. Yeah. They kinda over did the "AI players are out to get you" aspect of the diplomacy. It's virtually impossible to play an actual diplomatic game. You basically always need to have sufficient military force that they wont mess with you, and if you have that, you may as well just conquer everyone anyway, right?
The diplomatic win is pretty retarded as well. I won that accidentally the first game I played without really meaning to. City states are pretty much key to the game, but as you discovered, you basically have to be so powerful that no one can or will mess with you. Once you get there, the game is won.
The diplomatic win is pretty retarded as well. I won that accidentally the first game I played without really meaning to. City states are pretty much key to the game, but as you discovered, you basically have to be so powerful that no one can or will mess with you. Once you get there, the game is won.
King Nobby wrote:
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My biggest pet peeve with the game is how much proximity with nations affects their aggression towards you. If I start a game within 25 tiles of another nation, then its pretty much a given that I'll have to wipe them out at some point. It wouldn't matter if I was showering them with gifts; first chance they get they'll stab me in the back. They're too inclined to hostility...there's almost no way to play the game that doesn't hinge on militarism.
What's worse, nearby nations will actually DELIBERATELY build towards your civ. It's freaky to watch their territories all converging at you simultaneously from all sides. And this is actually in spite of the resources near them. They bum rush you with cities, and then, like clockwork, they declare war the second that they get within 7-8 tiles. Very annoying and predictable in its absurdity.
Fun game, but the AI keeps me from playing often.
What's worse, nearby nations will actually DELIBERATELY build towards your civ. It's freaky to watch their territories all converging at you simultaneously from all sides. And this is actually in spite of the resources near them. They bum rush you with cities, and then, like clockwork, they declare war the second that they get within 7-8 tiles. Very annoying and predictable in its absurdity.
Fun game, but the AI keeps me from playing often.
Yeah. One of the deliberate design features of the game was to make the AI play more like a player. So they use rush tactics to take territory near you, and attack you whenever they think they have an advantage no matter what you've done for them historically. Which, if you think about it, is exactly how human players play.
I guess my issue is that they don't seem to so much be trying to win the game themselves, but to prevent you from winning the game. Which breaks the immersion factor quite a bit. If the AI did things like that because it benefited them, or even did so consistently, that would be fine. But they don't take the same actions towards each other that they take towards a human player. They'll happily sit there building their own stuff while another AI builds his space ship, but if the human player starts building one, every AI in the game will dog pile on him.
It basically makes the game X computer players versus one human player, when the AI really shouldn't make that distinction at all. I prefer the game to either have all the AIs trying to beat everyone else to win *or* have the AIs be impediments to the human player winning but then allow for the human player to use diplomacy to get them to help him (or at least not hinder him). Right now, it seems like they're kinda doing half of one and half of the other and it doesn't make much sense.
There are also some issues with distance perception by the AI that causes many of the mechanics to break badly. They tend to see anything within a certain range of any of their units as their territory. I've had a computer player tell me to stop massing troops near his borders when I've got an open borders treaty with them and they are roaming about in my territory with one of their units. Meanwhile his territory is across an ocean and I don't have a single unit within 10 hexes of it.
There's still a number of bugs in the game. I agree that it's fun. I like the one unit per hex stacking limit. I like that combat is more tactical. And I suppose this removes some of the annoyance that the AI inevitably is going to be a military obstacle for you. It would just be nice if there was *any* way to win the game that didn't require that you always have the biggest military. So far, I don't think it's possible. You can't "win" because you spent sufficient time making friends that they don't mind you building your spaceship first, or getting the social policies you need, or voting for you in the UN. Which is kinda unfortunate and limiting IMO.
I guess my issue is that they don't seem to so much be trying to win the game themselves, but to prevent you from winning the game. Which breaks the immersion factor quite a bit. If the AI did things like that because it benefited them, or even did so consistently, that would be fine. But they don't take the same actions towards each other that they take towards a human player. They'll happily sit there building their own stuff while another AI builds his space ship, but if the human player starts building one, every AI in the game will dog pile on him.
It basically makes the game X computer players versus one human player, when the AI really shouldn't make that distinction at all. I prefer the game to either have all the AIs trying to beat everyone else to win *or* have the AIs be impediments to the human player winning but then allow for the human player to use diplomacy to get them to help him (or at least not hinder him). Right now, it seems like they're kinda doing half of one and half of the other and it doesn't make much sense.
There are also some issues with distance perception by the AI that causes many of the mechanics to break badly. They tend to see anything within a certain range of any of their units as their territory. I've had a computer player tell me to stop massing troops near his borders when I've got an open borders treaty with them and they are roaming about in my territory with one of their units. Meanwhile his territory is across an ocean and I don't have a single unit within 10 hexes of it.
There's still a number of bugs in the game. I agree that it's fun. I like the one unit per hex stacking limit. I like that combat is more tactical. And I suppose this removes some of the annoyance that the AI inevitably is going to be a military obstacle for you. It would just be nice if there was *any* way to win the game that didn't require that you always have the biggest military. So far, I don't think it's possible. You can't "win" because you spent sufficient time making friends that they don't mind you building your spaceship first, or getting the social policies you need, or voting for you in the UN. Which is kinda unfortunate and limiting IMO.
King Nobby wrote:
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Agreed on all points.
It makes sense that the AI is mimicking human playing techniques. It's just that its an immersion killer for me. I feel less like I'm playing a civilization/history-rooted game and more like I'm playing a very slow version of starcraft.
It makes sense that the AI is mimicking human playing techniques. It's just that its an immersion killer for me. I feel less like I'm playing a civilization/history-rooted game and more like I'm playing a very slow version of starcraft.
Giant Death Robots rock!
That is all. :)
That is all. :)
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
I've won the game with a cultural victory and about 7 units. So it *is* possible to win with a small military. It can get kind of boring though. Keeping city states funded and hitting next turn. Yay. I think there are going to be more tweaks to the AI eventually.
Nadenu wrote:
I've won the game with a cultural victory and about 7 units. So it *is* possible to win with a small military. It can get kind of boring though. Keeping city states funded and hitting next turn. Yay. I think there are going to be more tweaks to the AI eventually.
Cultural? Not diplomatic? How many cities did you have? I've been trying to see if I an work up a OCC strategy, but it hasn't gone so well. First time, I was kicking butt, right up until Arabia decided that he was jealous of my wonders and not concerned at all about my wimpy military. Second time, I didn't get wiped out (never got attacked at all, so it's possible it all depends on who you neighbor just happens to be), but didn't get the cultural stuff I really needed, and was about a half a policy tree short when someone launched their spaceship.
I've read some stuff which indicates you can do it, if you get the right techs at the right time, and build the correct wonders. I imagine it might be easier to do it with a few cities instead of one, especially if you get some puppets going to help keep the techs up to speed. I just find that as soon as I start doing any fighting at all, I inevitably end out having to wipe someone out (or mostly out), and then someone else attacks me for being a war monger, so I have to wipe them out. And next thing I know, I end out conquering 3/4ths of the map just to get the others to stop bugging me.
And that ultimately winds out with me obliterating things with Giant Death Robots! :)
King Nobby wrote:
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Completed a one city challenge this weekend for a cultural win. It was easier than I thought, but basically depends on not having certain AI leaders near you when you start. There are a couple of leaders (Ghengis and Alexander and I assume Arabia) who will always eventually attack you if they think you are weaker than they are. They're basically programmed to expand and conquer.
I finally got a pretty ideal start. Nice long river with flood plains, bounded by mountains, ocean, and a large lake, with city states conveniently placed to block off easy access. Had marble and enough resources to keep me happy. Never built a single military unit. I ended up with two because I accidentally did something that made a martial city state happy and they gave me a unit.
None of the AIs that were on my continent were of the conquer variety, so I never got attacked. It's pretty much pot luck. According to some of the stuff I've read, that's pretty much the determining factor. If certain AIs are near you, either restart or go with a different strategy. I just got unlucky and the first three times I tried it, I always had one of those AIs next to me.
I'm also starting to think that the diplomacy isn't as bad as I originally thought. It's less determinant, but at the same time, it's less easy to manipulate as a player. I think that a lot of us got so used to the CivIV AI in which specific actions granted you specific points for/against each leader that you could mathematically calculate everything and essentially control what happened. Can't do that in CivV. You can learn that certain leaders have certain behaviors though and work within that context. I still do think that the whole "domino effect" of warfare and denouncement gets silly at some point, and the inconsistency in terms of "AI as competing player" versus "AI as game element to be overcome" is still a problem, but you can still just work your way through.
I do absolutely love the combat system. Sucks that the AI can't figure it out, but to be honest, that's the only advantage the human player has. And to be honest, the AI sucked at warfare in every other version of Civ as well, so it's not like this is really new.
I finally got a pretty ideal start. Nice long river with flood plains, bounded by mountains, ocean, and a large lake, with city states conveniently placed to block off easy access. Had marble and enough resources to keep me happy. Never built a single military unit. I ended up with two because I accidentally did something that made a martial city state happy and they gave me a unit.
None of the AIs that were on my continent were of the conquer variety, so I never got attacked. It's pretty much pot luck. According to some of the stuff I've read, that's pretty much the determining factor. If certain AIs are near you, either restart or go with a different strategy. I just got unlucky and the first three times I tried it, I always had one of those AIs next to me.
I'm also starting to think that the diplomacy isn't as bad as I originally thought. It's less determinant, but at the same time, it's less easy to manipulate as a player. I think that a lot of us got so used to the CivIV AI in which specific actions granted you specific points for/against each leader that you could mathematically calculate everything and essentially control what happened. Can't do that in CivV. You can learn that certain leaders have certain behaviors though and work within that context. I still do think that the whole "domino effect" of warfare and denouncement gets silly at some point, and the inconsistency in terms of "AI as competing player" versus "AI as game element to be overcome" is still a problem, but you can still just work your way through.
I do absolutely love the combat system. Sucks that the AI can't figure it out, but to be honest, that's the only advantage the human player has. And to be honest, the AI sucked at warfare in every other version of Civ as well, so it's not like this is really new.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
I've won the game with a cultural victory and about 7 units. So it *is* possible to win with a small military. It can get kind of boring though. Keeping city states funded and hitting next turn. Yay. I think there are going to be more tweaks to the AI eventually.
Cultural? Not diplomatic? How many cities did you have? I've been trying to see if I an work up a OCC strategy, but it hasn't gone so well. First time, I was kicking butt, right up until Arabia decided that he was jealous of my wonders and not concerned at all about my wimpy military. Second time, I didn't get wiped out (never got attacked at all, so it's possible it all depends on who you neighbor just happens to be), but didn't get the cultural stuff I really needed, and was about a half a policy tree short when someone launched their spaceship.
I've read some stuff which indicates you can do it, if you get the right techs at the right time, and build the correct wonders. I imagine it might be easier to do it with a few cities instead of one, especially if you get some puppets going to help keep the techs up to speed. I just find that as soon as I start doing any fighting at all, I inevitably end out having to wipe someone out (or mostly out), and then someone else attacks me for being a war monger, so I have to wipe them out. And next thing I know, I end out conquering 3/4ths of the map just to get the others to stop bugging me.
And that ultimately winds out with me obliterating things with Giant Death Robots! :)
Cultural. You can't have more than 4 cities. Also, become ally with all the cultural city states. And the biggest wonders you need are Stonehenge, Oracle, Cristo Redentor (spelling?) and um... crap, there's one more, haha, can't think of it now though. And obviously when the tree opens up that focuses on culture, you start going down that one.
Yeah, you run the risk of someone picking on you because you don't have a huge army. But if you play it right, your tech can usually be higher than most of the other civs because you're not worried about a military, you're making buildings that add to culture and a lot of those also add to tech. I would make a few units, upgrade them every so often and it seems that as long as you have 2 tanks, the other guy that has 7,409 crossbows might think twice about attacking.
I could have just gotten lucky though, haha.
Sistine Chapel. And you want to take Tradition and get the policy there that adds to wonder construction right off the bat, then take Happiness. The "two free policies" policy doesn't affect future costs of new policies (they're actually free, not just sorta free), so it doesn't hurt you to take that when it's available. A good idea is to wait until the Liberty tree opens up, then immediately buy it and the one which adds to culture with the two free ones. Lots of strategies in terms of which trees to go with. In my last game, there were no cultural city states near me (almost all militaristic), so I didn't bother with city states at all.
Another key trick I learned about is how to manipulate the research agreements. When the agreement ends, you get a tech, picked randomly from any tech you have available and which you haven't spent any time researching. So by putting a turn or two into each of the cheaper ones without finishing them, you can ensure that you always get the newest and most expensive one when the agreement ends. This allows you to rapidly jump ahead in technology (or keep up on the higher levels). I found that instead of buying influence with city states, I just got into research agreements with everyone I could and it was a better use of my money in the long run. It also can create some "odd" conditions, like being able to build mechanized infantry before you can build riflemen.
Another key trick I learned about is how to manipulate the research agreements. When the agreement ends, you get a tech, picked randomly from any tech you have available and which you haven't spent any time researching. So by putting a turn or two into each of the cheaper ones without finishing them, you can ensure that you always get the newest and most expensive one when the agreement ends. This allows you to rapidly jump ahead in technology (or keep up on the higher levels). I found that instead of buying influence with city states, I just got into research agreements with everyone I could and it was a better use of my money in the long run. It also can create some "odd" conditions, like being able to build mechanized infantry before you can build riflemen.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Another key trick I learned about is how to manipulate the research agreements. When the agreement ends, you get a tech, picked randomly from any tech you have available and which you haven't spent any time researching. So by putting a turn or two into each of the cheaper ones without finishing them, you can ensure that you always get the newest and most expensive one when the agreement ends. This allows you to rapidly jump ahead in technology (or keep up on the higher levels). I found that instead of buying influence with city states, I just got into research agreements with everyone I could and it was a better use of my money in the long run. It also can create some "odd" conditions, like being able to build mechanized infantry before you can build riflemen.
Ooh, I didn't know that worked. Thanks for the hint.
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