Ok, to my relevant specs:
Home-built
Intel P4 3.0Ghz
Vantech CPU/fan combo
120mm intake fan - rear of case next to CPU (adjacent fan slot lower on case)
120mm exhaust fan - side panel, over nest of cables
Idle temps: low 30C with side panel off, 34C with panel on
Problem:
When gaming (mostly Battlefield 2) the overall/CPU temp will creep up to almost 60C with the side panel on. with the side panel off, it goes up to about 52-53C. Are there any recommendations, for airflow - removing a fan, reversing fans, etc.)?
Also, I'm using random generic/Rat Shack thermal paste for the CPU heatsink. does Arctic Silver thermal paste really make a huge difference? What is recommended for removing thermal paste from a setup - most people insist on rubbing alcohol or special cleaners, but will Windex work ok?
Any other simple advice, other than following Kaolian down the path of liquid cooling? Any tricks to be done with Speedfan?
Edited, Apr 28th 2007 6:34am by Debalic
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
NEVER USE WINDEX ON ANY ELECTRONIC. EVER!!! I wish I could lg tag that... >.< Seriously to clean off thermal grease just wipe it down with a dry rag.
I would say update the cooler. Clean it out. Yes Artic Silver is bomb. GET IT. Get a beefy cooler. and be happy :) Hopefully some of the info I posted helped.... and once again
NEVER USE WINDEX WITH ANY ELECTRONICS!!
Some random thing. wrote:
Any Attempt to make sense of CPU temp readouts without checking their accuracy can seriously damage your sanity.
The CPU temp sensors on motherboards are highly inaccurate. Readouts are commonly wrong by 20C. Errors as high as 50C have been reported.
AMD state the max operating temp for their XP CPUs is 85C. Some earlier CPUs were 90C, but only a few. Stick with 85C.
85C is the Internal Fry Temp. If the temperature inside the CPU goes above 85C your CPU is increasingly likely to die. Permanently.
Most motherboard CPU temp sensors report the Surface temp. The Surface Temp is typically around 10C lower than the Internal CPU Temp under Full Load conditions. So:
Internal Fry Temp = 85C
Surface Fry Temp = 75C
The Error Free Temp is not the same as the Fry Temp. It will vary from CPU to CPU, but typically it's 20C below the Fry Temp, i.e.
Internal Error Free Temp = 65C
Surface Error Free Temp = 55C
If you over-clock your machine the Error Free Temp falls, i.e. your CPU has to run cooler in order to remain stable.
The CPU temp sensors on motherboards are highly inaccurate. Readouts are commonly wrong by 20C. Errors as high as 50C have been reported.
AMD state the max operating temp for their XP CPUs is 85C. Some earlier CPUs were 90C, but only a few. Stick with 85C.
85C is the Internal Fry Temp. If the temperature inside the CPU goes above 85C your CPU is increasingly likely to die. Permanently.
Most motherboard CPU temp sensors report the Surface temp. The Surface Temp is typically around 10C lower than the Internal CPU Temp under Full Load conditions. So:
Internal Fry Temp = 85C
Surface Fry Temp = 75C
The Error Free Temp is not the same as the Fry Temp. It will vary from CPU to CPU, but typically it's 20C below the Fry Temp, i.e.
Internal Error Free Temp = 65C
Surface Error Free Temp = 55C
If you over-clock your machine the Error Free Temp falls, i.e. your CPU has to run cooler in order to remain stable.
I would say update the cooler. Clean it out. Yes Artic Silver is bomb. GET IT. Get a beefy cooler. and be happy :) Hopefully some of the info I posted helped.... and once again
NEVER USE WINDEX WITH ANY ELECTRONICS!!
Ok, thanks for that tip about the Windex. I'm hoping I'm still safe when I used it to clean all the fan blades.
I spent so much time researching cooling equipment last night I dreamt about re-seating my CPU cooler with the Rat Shack paste and the machine immediately stayed at 25C at high load.
I spent so much time researching cooling equipment last night I dreamt about re-seating my CPU cooler with the Rat Shack paste and the machine immediately stayed at 25C at high load.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
You can use Windex to clean the fan blades, but that's about it.
EDIT: I tried to do this earlier, but apparently replication was down. What types of cables are you using? Airflow might be your problem. Have you considered going to the smaller cables and thereby increasing the amount of air flowing through the case?
Edited, Apr 28th 2007 4:53pm by Kastigir
EDIT: I tried to do this earlier, but apparently replication was down. What types of cables are you using? Airflow might be your problem. Have you considered going to the smaller cables and thereby increasing the amount of air flowing through the case?
Edited, Apr 28th 2007 4:53pm by Kastigir
People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. ~River Tam
Sedao
Sedao
The cooler you linked there really isn't one of the better ones out there. You would probably be better off with the stock unit for gaming compared to that one. Not that there aren't better coolers out there, that one just isn't one of them.
Also, Artic silver will make a Huge difference. The stuff you get from radio shack is generic aluminum shaving based and is NOT rated for a P4 CPU. Artic silver is $6.00, and you can get it from most computer stores that sell components. Well worth the money.
As far as cooling goes, You want a front to back airflow motion. Your case should have a front fan intake and a rear fan outflow. The side intake will help, but it shouldn't be your primary intake. A rear intake will just suck nthe heat generated from the Power supply back into the case and cook things. And a side exhaust is just in the wrong spot to get rid of any heat.
Are your fans oriented in the right direction? generally speaking the side of the fan that has the bracket is the rear, and the air exhausts out that direction.
Round IDE cables like Kastigir mentioned are also highly effective. Much less restrictive than the ribbon IDE cables
A cheap fix you can try is to cut an additonal top blowhole fan slot. Heat rises, so an exaust at the top will be very effective. You'll need to remove all your components, but all you'll need is a 116mm hole saw and a drill. You will want that fan set to exhaust air out of the case.
Specifically what case are you using?
Also, Artic silver will make a Huge difference. The stuff you get from radio shack is generic aluminum shaving based and is NOT rated for a P4 CPU. Artic silver is $6.00, and you can get it from most computer stores that sell components. Well worth the money.
As far as cooling goes, You want a front to back airflow motion. Your case should have a front fan intake and a rear fan outflow. The side intake will help, but it shouldn't be your primary intake. A rear intake will just suck nthe heat generated from the Power supply back into the case and cook things. And a side exhaust is just in the wrong spot to get rid of any heat.
Are your fans oriented in the right direction? generally speaking the side of the fan that has the bracket is the rear, and the air exhausts out that direction.
Round IDE cables like Kastigir mentioned are also highly effective. Much less restrictive than the ribbon IDE cables
A cheap fix you can try is to cut an additonal top blowhole fan slot. Heat rises, so an exaust at the top will be very effective. You'll need to remove all your components, but all you'll need is a 116mm hole saw and a drill. You will want that fan set to exhaust air out of the case.
Specifically what case are you using?
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Also, windex is unsafe because it contains ammonia. It will eat plastics, resins, and paint. verymuchso bad.
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Ok, as advised from another thread I reversed the fans so the side panel fan is intake and the rear fan exhaust. that made a bit of difference right off the bat. There currently isn't any front fan though that's easily enough remedied; I may just move the side fan there. If I can get the damn front panel off. I don't know what the case is; I had found a shipping box for one but it was for another case.
The Vantec heatsink/fan seems fine, as long as I keep the fins clear of dust; I don't have a stock heatsink since I bought them independently from Newegg.
As for Arctic Silver, I can't find that locally at the moment. Best Buy, CompUSA, Circuit City at the mall don't have any and Radio Shack is out. I might be able to find it at another Rat Shack but my mobility is a bit limited. It's about the same price if I order from Newegg; $5.99+4.99s+h and $9.99 in-store.
Edited, Apr 28th 2007 7:31pm by Debalic
The Vantec heatsink/fan seems fine, as long as I keep the fins clear of dust; I don't have a stock heatsink since I bought them independently from Newegg.
As for Arctic Silver, I can't find that locally at the moment. Best Buy, CompUSA, Circuit City at the mall don't have any and Radio Shack is out. I might be able to find it at another Rat Shack but my mobility is a bit limited. It's about the same price if I order from Newegg; $5.99+4.99s+h and $9.99 in-store.
Edited, Apr 28th 2007 7:31pm by Debalic
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Also, what power supply are you using? I recently purchased a Thermaltake and I only had to insert the cables that I use. Removed all the extra cables that come with the PS. That would also help alleviate some of the cooling issues.
People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. ~River Tam
Sedao
Sedao
Power is a new Antec Earthwatts 500W. Yeah it does have a lot of cables, for both PATA and SATA devices. I do have both in my system - 2 PATA DVD/CDRoms, a primary PATA drive and a secondary SATA. There's another SATA in the case that I will hook up eventually, so yeah it is pretty crowded. I've tucked all the extra cabling into the empty 5.25" bays to alleviate some of it.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Everyone else pretty much nailed what is going on however I would like to recommend you buying a better heat sink such as a Zalman if want to stay on air. Zalman are a little on the pricey side however they sure can push heat off those CPUS's fast in the overclocks I have done using the obvious artic choice of paste.
I am not sure on those P4 chips (I use AMD as they overclock very nice) however about a 50c on full load isn't to bad depending on case room and air flow. If you ever want to upgrade or change PSU's Antec puts out some nice PSU's with removable cables so you hook up what you need and they have very good power control across the lines.
Good Luck,
I am not sure on those P4 chips (I use AMD as they overclock very nice) however about a 50c on full load isn't to bad depending on case room and air flow. If you ever want to upgrade or change PSU's Antec puts out some nice PSU's with removable cables so you hook up what you need and they have very good power control across the lines.
Good Luck,
Ok, thanks everyone.
I've ordered some Arctic Silver, but that's pretty much all I'm going to get for this system. The P4, of course, isn't really worth dumping a lot of money into. Once this becomes unusable I'll just be building another new system and will put more consideration into cooling (I didn't build this original system myself; my fiancee and her brother-in-law did, even though I've changed just about everything inside the case). Moving the cables out of the way helped; reversing the airflow helped; if I can just get the front panel off and mount the other fan there, that would also make a big deal; as will the Arctic Silver. Once all these changes are implemented fully and cools more noticeably, then maybe I'll start overclocking; I'd think that a P4 maxing out at 60C would still be ok.
Now...something else I've considered since hearing about it: video heatsinks. I've got an ATI Radeon x1300 Pro with the stock sink/fan/sleeve, and I've read that some people will cut this off if only to replace the thermal tape generally used on these with the Artic Silver. Is this feasible or worthwhile?
I've ordered some Arctic Silver, but that's pretty much all I'm going to get for this system. The P4, of course, isn't really worth dumping a lot of money into. Once this becomes unusable I'll just be building another new system and will put more consideration into cooling (I didn't build this original system myself; my fiancee and her brother-in-law did, even though I've changed just about everything inside the case). Moving the cables out of the way helped; reversing the airflow helped; if I can just get the front panel off and mount the other fan there, that would also make a big deal; as will the Arctic Silver. Once all these changes are implemented fully and cools more noticeably, then maybe I'll start overclocking; I'd think that a P4 maxing out at 60C would still be ok.
Now...something else I've considered since hearing about it: video heatsinks. I've got an ATI Radeon x1300 Pro with the stock sink/fan/sleeve, and I've read that some people will cut this off if only to replace the thermal tape generally used on these with the Artic Silver. Is this feasible or worthwhile?
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
If your keeping your GPU at stock clock speeds then don't bother to much about it. Maybe adding a little artic silver won't hurt it one bit however replacing heat sinks and other items on it is overkill. If you plan on overclocking it then yes a larger heatsink or watercooling (If you move away from fans) are ideal for overclocked GPUs along with good thermal paste.
Don't bother trying to overclock an ATI 1300 card. Chances are it will melt.
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Quote:
Don't bother trying to overclock an ATI 1300 card. Chances are it will melt.
So true. . . then again it would be fun while it lasted, much like that feeling you get when you take a Slug Hammer to a P1 100MHz machine.
No, I never intended to overclock the video card; I'm not sure I know how to do that anyways. Just the CPU.
The Arctic Silver should be coming in tomorrow; I'll be redoing the CPU heatsink and probably reorganizing the interior. Still haven't managed to pry the front panel off this damn case - it may come down to brute force.
The Arctic Silver should be coming in tomorrow; I'll be redoing the CPU heatsink and probably reorganizing the interior. Still haven't managed to pry the front panel off this damn case - it may come down to brute force.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
With a significant temp drop from removing side panel, I'd expect your case ventiallation is poor. Cut it up with a dremel and add more fans in the side panel or top. Get a better CPU HSF unit. All copper, powerful fan. Also the arctic silver will help.
OC'ing the video card is easy, its done with software. Check guru3d.com for downloads. Its a good idea to use 3dmark and verify new settings for the gpu and video memory don't freeze up benchmark, and look for graphical distortions. Go is small steps. Compare 3dmark scores at the end as a synthetic evaluation of performance boost from the overclock.
OC'ing the video card is easy, its done with software. Check guru3d.com for downloads. Its a good idea to use 3dmark and verify new settings for the gpu and video memory don't freeze up benchmark, and look for graphical distortions. Go is small steps. Compare 3dmark scores at the end as a synthetic evaluation of performance boost from the overclock.
Ok - preliminary result time.
First off, I finally managed to get the front panel of the case off. It really helps when you take out *all* of the screws holding it down; I had missed a pair in the middle all along. Moved the side fan there and hooked it up. Now I have airflow coming in the front bottom, past the large media drive, and exhaust out the upper rear - just below the PSU and right next to the CPU.
I got the Arctic Silver 5 applied. I let it sit cold for a few hours, then gave it a ~2 hour warmup of WoW where it maxed out at 52-53C. Shut it down for a few more hours and now I'm heating it up again. Started with another WoW session; now it's running Battlefield2, TrendMicro actively scanning and Bittorrent (negligible).
With all this runing, and the side panel on, it's maxing out at about 53C. The room ambient temp is a bit low, as it's the middle of the night, but I am already very satisfied with these numbers - I don't forsee it ever getting over 55C, much less 60C. With a few more heat cycles to get the AS5 properly cured I may even see another degree or two drop.
First off, I finally managed to get the front panel of the case off. It really helps when you take out *all* of the screws holding it down; I had missed a pair in the middle all along. Moved the side fan there and hooked it up. Now I have airflow coming in the front bottom, past the large media drive, and exhaust out the upper rear - just below the PSU and right next to the CPU.
I got the Arctic Silver 5 applied. I let it sit cold for a few hours, then gave it a ~2 hour warmup of WoW where it maxed out at 52-53C. Shut it down for a few more hours and now I'm heating it up again. Started with another WoW session; now it's running Battlefield2, TrendMicro actively scanning and Bittorrent (negligible).
With all this runing, and the side panel on, it's maxing out at about 53C. The room ambient temp is a bit low, as it's the middle of the night, but I am already very satisfied with these numbers - I don't forsee it ever getting over 55C, much less 60C. With a few more heat cycles to get the AS5 properly cured I may even see another degree or two drop.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Since you have the hole there already, another 120mm fan in that side port blowing in on the video card would give you another 2-3 degrees without much additional noise or cost.
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Yup. Currently I have the side panel covered with cloth to filter the incoming air (when the fan was there). Take the panel off, and running WoW I go from 50C to 41C.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Hopefully that cloth is no thicker than screen door fabric. Otherwise you aren't getting any airflow at all.
Edit: also, where are you measuring the temperature from? The on the CPU socket temperature sensor, or a location inside the case?
Edited, May 6th 2007 5:42pm by Kaolian
Edit: also, where are you measuring the temperature from? The on the CPU socket temperature sensor, or a location inside the case?
Edited, May 6th 2007 5:42pm by Kaolian
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41 posts
Two words.
Liquid. Nitrogen.
Liquid. Nitrogen.
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Hopefully that cloth is no thicker than screen door fabric. Otherwise you aren't getting any airflow at all.
Edit: also, where are you measuring the temperature from? The on the CPU socket temperature sensor, or a location inside the case? [/i]
Edit: also, where are you measuring the temperature from? The on the CPU socket temperature sensor, or a location inside the case? [/i]
Um...I dunno? I'm using SpeedFan.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
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