Handling Misconduct

From PlayOnline.com:

In November 2008, we discovered an issue that allowed players to create multiple items for certain treasures and rewards in areas such as Salvage and Assault by exploiting the game system.

The issue was fixed during emergency maintenance on November 26, 2008. However, we discovered that some players had already exploited the issue and used it to gain additional items before it was addressed. We then investigated more than a year's worth of logs throughout all areas.

As a result of the investigation, approximately 400 players were temporarily suspended based on the evidence gathered. Approximately 550 players who committed more serious misconduct had their accounts banned.

We are working hard to ensure that these kinds of issues do not occur again in FINAL FANTASY XI. However, if you discover any problems with the game system, please submit a GM call or fill out the feedback e-mail form to report the problems to us, instead of exploiting or spreading the issue.

We thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

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My Final Say in this matter.
# Jan 28 2009 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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56 posts
How I see it, if you have exploited this bug for about a month, than I more than likely agree that those people have those rewards either lessened or completely token away.

More than three months a slap in the wrist with the rewards confiscated.

If they did it for three month straight or more of exploiting this bug than Perma-banned no questions asked.

If you was part of this but only joined without knowing the bug, a slap on the wrist.

Chat logs with knowing the bugs? Perma-banned.

There is no rule on what people believe to be morally correct or not.
I just find it hard to believe the greed of some of the people that initially caused this would hurt so many. I hope the best of luck for those who didn't do much or somehow did not know about this bug. As for repeat offenders, your greed, your needs, you either deal with it or cry about it because... really you did it so many times but you never bother to mention about the bug.

SE should of at least told about this bug so people would listen and note not to do this on purpose every single time they did assault. The public at least need to know about the bug in order to prevent themselves to stumbling upon it and getting a ban.


Over Indulgence people is not a good thing. There is a fine line to think whether what your doing is a bug or not. This is greed... by a few... end of story for me. (Unless someones wants to rant about what I just said.)
well well
# Jan 24 2009 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
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149 posts
The other day in Whitegate I noticed a discussion about some players that apparently had been banned. This was before this message. The people talking about it could not understand why those players had been banned but I thought for myself: "Because they were cheaters of course, what else". For me if I cheated in this game I would loose, even if no one else (SE included) knew about it, because in the end it is only against myself and my own goals.
I can understand it beeing hard if your in wrong party or linkshell or alliance to stand up against the pressure. But SE went through a years worth of logs, it says, and I trust their judgement. And if you see how shouts for Nyzul and similar has dropped the last days I am definitely sure so many more than those numbers mentioned was involved.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 3:50 AM Rating: Default
In reply to comments : Handling Misconduct

Did you guys think about the fact the it was Square's bug that they made and their error ? Why should the person who is paying for this game get punished for there mistake ? Over the years there have been more then one example of this and now they decide they will just whack 900 ppl and that is not anywhere near the one's who did it. They made those people an "extreme example" for no reason at all. If they could not punish everyone they should have just did warnings period. This was not like the players where running third party software or did anything more then what the GAME LET THEM DO and DOES NOT say in the rules anywhere "do not touch software we ***** up".

Not fair in the least of SE to go after just a few for SE's mistake. Are we as plyaers going to sit every time you play now and figure out if the FFXI is working right and are you allowed to do this or that cause its the "right thing to do" based on SE's ethics or you going to expect the game to work right how you assumed they planned it ....

ps. i never seen bug personally, but this it just not cool for those 900 fellow players (this is note to SE_Thought_Police if there reading and want to come after me too)




edit : these are the ppl you guys are talking about that got trashed

Edited, Jan 24th 2009 10:30pm by sirtebian
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 26 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
Actually, sirtebian, they did break a rule, its a rule in every MMO, its a certain line that almost always reads exactly as follows: EXPLOITING A BUG MAY RESULT IN A PERMANENT BAN.

The user who stumbles across the bug and reports it, is innocent. The user who stumbles across the bug, and decides to use the bug to get stuff out of it is guilty.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
Why would you think you could get away with something that's obviously NOT what SE planned? It's common sense to think that if there is something wrong with the game, you don't exploit it, or it'll eventually get found out.

As the old saying goes, you play with matches, you're gonna get burned.

Feel bad for Minidragon though =/
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
This was not like the players where running third party software or did anything more then what the GAME LET THEM DO and DOES NOT say in the rules anywhere "do not touch software we ***** up".


actually it does state in the TOS to not take advantage of obvious game code error and gltiches.
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 24 2009 at 4:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) find it and show me that is says they can delete your account for it ...
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
Well, we can start off with this portion of the Final Fantasy XI User Agreement, which can be found at www.playonline.com under Rules & Policies:

Quote:
By playing the Game, you indicate your agreement to all of the terms of this Agreement, and you agree to abide by this Agreement at all times while playing the Game and while using PlayOnline in connection with your use of the Game.


Under Article 3.1 Prohibited Activities it states:

Quote:
Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the following acts and activities are strictly prohibited and shall, without prejudice to any other rights or remedies that SEI may have, be cause for immediate termination of your PlayOnline account and your right to play the Game (or any other services) in connection therewith


Then in the Final Fantasy XI User Agreement Article 3 Subsection (d) it states:

Quote:
Any intellectual property infringement or trade secret violation; this includes the unauthorized use, duplication, transmission, display, performance or distribution of any intellectual property relating to the Game or PlayOnline Service, or owned by any third party, or any other commission of any act of copyright, trademark, or patent infringement, trade secret infringement or misappropriation


That would cover the dupe trick, I think. Otherwise, if you refer to the PlayOnline Member Agreement Article 3.2 Subsection (d) where it states:

Quote:
SEI MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE ANY PLAYONLINE ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME, WITH ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE.


So basically, Square-Enix states what behaviour will result in a ban, and even if you decide to contest it, they have that little bit that states how they do not even need a reason if they want to ban you. You accept the User Agreements every time you log into the game, and so you are bound by them. The game is a voluntary transaction between Square-Enix and its customers. They provide a service of hosting servers, providing content, and maintaining the virtual worlds, so long as the customer pays the monthly fee for the services and obeys the User Agreements, commonly reffered to as Terms of Service.

Does that meet your burden of proof? ^.~
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 7:26 PM Rating: Default
read this and tell me that any of that matters... those where good players who got whack cause of SE's bad programing

http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/ffxi-advanced-player-discussion/68852-r-i-p-players.html

i hope you feel better with your post and standing up for them...
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 9:18 PM Rating: Default
Feel bad? FEEL BAD?!? This is the greatest blessing in disguise these people will ever get! Now they're free to go outside, get a tan, socialize with actual humans, and heck, maybe they'll even be getting investigated by the SEC in 20 years when they go out into the world thinking they can cheat the system there too.

Don't ask me to feel bad for people who knowingly broke the rules and, oh no boo hoo, now have to face the consequences of THEIR ACTIONS.




sirtebian wrote:
read this and tell me that any of that matters... those where good players who got whack cause of SE's bad programing

http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/ffxi-advanced-player-discussion/68852-r-i-p-players.html

i hope you feel better with your post and standing up for them...
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
No, it doesn't, actually. The "duplication" that you quote there does not refer to the duplication of items, it refers to the duplication of intellectual property, commonly known as plagiarism. I did not see a quote in your post that covers glitches in any way, shape, or form, other than the general "for any reason" quote. That being said, I actually do agree with you, in that they should not have been banned for taking advantage of a glitch. It was a glitch, there is no reason to assume it shouldn't be something for a player to use. Still though, I don't mind seeing those people gone, because at least 99% of them were cheaters regardless.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
Intellectual property refers to any thing about their created works. Same as a book or movie. The difference with gaming is that the intellectual property is actualy intereacted with by the end user. Duping glitches create more in game items, which would still be considered intellectual property owned by Square-Enix.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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2,705 posts
The TOS state wrote:
Rules of Conduct, Article 2 Prohibited Conduct in FINAL FANTASY XI
- Taking advantage of programming errors, such as bugs/exploits, for any reason

Doing so may result in the immediate termination of your account
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 24 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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1,105 posts
Where do you draw the line? Clearly, this fits that definition, but what if say... they accidentally made the drop rate on K Club 100%, and people flocked to get their K Clubs. Obviously, that's a bug, and people were taking advantage of it. Should they all be banned too? That doesn't seem right, but it also fits the definition.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 25 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
41 posts
Personally the difference would be that without prior knowledge of their being a problem with the drop rates, there is no way to know that there is a problem with the coding. You win up in arms and get a kc, that could just be lucky, you go 2/2 completely plausable. 3/3... 5/5 would start looking a little weird and I would myself notify a GM to ask if theres something wrong with it.

Ban worthy? No not in the slightest, I did an event and got the best outcome of that event and after an implausable number of perfect scores I reported it as is my duty and obligation that I agreed to prior to playing the game.
Now if I said nothing at all and flogged of a kc once a week every week for a year and a half well aware that I shouldn't be getting them, I'd accept with grace that I would deserve to be banned right then and there. I failed to hold up my end of the terms of service.

Unlike that situation, this was a deliberate det of actions in order to circumvent normal conditions and force a different result, it happens once and you report it, SE would prob have said "Ahh well oops, keep the drops we'll fix it up at some point" it was because the players refused to let them know specifically because they wanted better drops. Those who did so do deserve to be banned, it's the intent behind the situation.

As to those banned, general sympathies for the loss of time spent and friends lost. Those who manned up and accepted they were wrong, grats it takes a lot. Those who are crying about injustice and the like, it's not going to earn you much from people, bar those areound you more than likely.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 25 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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2,705 posts
There's a difference between a bug and an exploit. People flocking to a sudden 100% Kclub are still staying within the bounds of normal gameplay. That's a bug, Because you're still doing the challenge and reciving a reward, its just 100%. Doing the same BC but then clicking on the exit but not exiting so that the mob is stuck which causes the drop rate on kclub to be 100% for some reason is an exploit. You're not going about the game through the rules, you're just cheating the system by finding loopholes.

why get punished for bug in software
# Feb 01 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
21 posts
Hmm...so what some of you are saying is, if I forget and leave my house unlocked it's ok for you to come in and steal the silver, and the TVs and for that matter, anything else I leave not bolted down?

SE forgot to lock the door when they left this portion of the programming...people came in, saw the door was unlocked and proceeded to steal. Theft is still theft, no matter what name you call it by.

Edited, Feb 1st 2009 11:15am by KenshinOro
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 25 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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1,105 posts
Asier wrote:
There's a difference between a bug and an exploit. People flocking to a sudden 100% Kclub are still staying within the bounds of normal gameplay. That's a bug, Because you're still doing the challenge and reciving a reward, its just 100%. Doing the same BC but then clicking on the exit but not exiting so that the mob is stuck which causes the drop rate on kclub to be 100% for some reason is an exploit. You're not going about the game through the rules, you're just cheating the system by finding loopholes.


How many people were banned for the infamous "wall trick" on AV? And it was fixed, and since it was fixed, then it was a bug/exploit. How does that differ?

And furthermore, why does everybody cheer as if "justice has been served"? What did some people getting some extra drops do to ruin the gameplay for other players? It didn't take anybody else's items, it didn't make things any more difficult for others, so why rejoice in the banning of people who saw an exploit (against the game, NOT other player) and used it?

I agree that SE can ban whoever they so please, but I don't see why it was necessary for them to do so, nor why it is necessary for people to be so happy about it. The "cheaters" ruined the gameplay for themselves, isn't that punishment enough? I enjoy earning my achievements, cheating yields no satisfaction. So why punish these people and have the player base happy that they are?
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 25 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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56 posts
The problem with your comment is everything. I do question why people say "justice is served" when it still isn't BUT the comment that it is not interfering with other players? It does trust me, if they can cheat their way to get tons of those items I expect to be able to get the same amount, in the same time, and the same fashion. Note that I have not done salvage or assault BUT

Tell me what you think:
An alliance that does this trick over and over to reap the rewards.

Another alliance doesn't do this and reap the rewards per alliance (without breaking to do this trick only only one or two times until they notice something is up.)

Who is being cheated you say? The second group is because they may have spent the same allotted time as the first group but the first group get triple the amount of items as the first group.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 25 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Default
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1,105 posts
Hajikikun wrote:
Tell me what you think:
An alliance that does this trick over and over to reap the rewards.

Another alliance doesn't do this and reap the rewards per alliance (without breaking to do this trick only only one or two times until they notice something is up.)

Who is being cheated you say? The second group is because they may have spent the same allotted time as the first group but the first group get triple the amount of items as the first group.


The second group isn't getting cheated out of anything. They're getting exactly what they were meant to get. If anything, the first group has the satisfaction of working and properly earning their gear. If you don't get satisfaction from hard-earned gear in a MMORPG, you're playing the wrong kind of game.

The first group may have gotten more, but it doesn't make the second group get any less. Nobody was cheated, except maybe the first group - cheated out of satisfaction.

Personally, though it may be SE's decision, I don't care that they got the loot, and I don't rejoice in their banning. The only reason to rejoice in their banning would be for somebody who was jealous that the cheaters had the loot and they didn't. But I see no reason to be bitter.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 26 2009 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
If two people put in equal effort and one person does something that causes them to get extra undue reward, that's cheating.

If you and I are playing monopoly, and I get $200 every time I pass go, but you take $500 instead, I'm not getting any less, but you are getting MORE, because you're cheating. Thus, I'm being cheated.

Don't they teach morals and ethics to kids any more? Apparently not.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 27 2009 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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1,105 posts
Mikhalia wrote:
If you and I are playing monopoly, and I get $200 every time I pass go, but you take $500 instead, I'm not getting any less, but you are getting MORE, because you're cheating. Thus, I'm being cheated.


Yeah, that example is great and all, except that FFXI isn't competitive. You aren't playing against each other except for the handful of people who enjoy the PvP stuff. That doesn't quite apply. We play against the computer. The cheaters can play against the computer more effectively, but it has no bearing on how well YOU play against the computer. In your example, their advantage DOES have a bearing on how well they play against you, since it's PvP.

Now if you started talking about how these people unfairly beat you in Ballista or something, then you'd have a case.

And don't patronize me. This has nothing to do with morals and ethics, and I'm not a kid.

Edited, Jan 27th 2009 12:49am by Arbau
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 28 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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2,705 posts
It absolutely does have to deal with ethics. You're right that it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg for a group to cheat and gain undue rewards in nyzul or salvage. But its still cheating, it still hurts the community, and I'm glad they got what they deserved.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 28 2009 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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1,105 posts
Asier wrote:
It absolutely does have to deal with ethics. You're right that it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg for a group to cheat and gain undue rewards in nyzul or salvage. But its still cheating, it still hurts the community, and I'm glad they got what they deserved.


I will never understand how it hurts the community. If anything, other players will be able to party with the "cheaters" for XP or events and at them having better gear can only HELP the party.

They did nothing to hurt others unless by jealousy. If anything, I'd say most people are bitter that the cheaters exploited and got the gear and the honest players did not, maybe because they didn't know about the exploit. Then it was too late, but they have satisfaction?

I don't know, I can't really rationalize it. I have no harsh feelings towards the cheaters. If that's how they want to play the game, then it's their loss, not mine.

The worst part about it all is that they kind of spoiled their own FFXI experience. Even moreso now that they are banned.
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 25 2009 at 2:14 AM Rating: Default
At least one person has the same idea, where do you draw the line ? I got sub defaulted on this comment and yet if any of you had been on that least you be screaming mad. You guys pay a lot of money for this game every month and you should have some "rights". One of them should be that if there is a programming errors its not your fault. That is all I said. So many people seem to think these players who where made "example" of where not run of the mill guys. No they where regular people who got overly punished for Squares laziness. Square knew about the problem and spent one month searching people down to hurt them back and then went about fixing something they could have turned off right away.

Do you really think that the players should be treated like the RMT's now ? After some of those people played for years you do not think they had some rights at all to continue to play game and be heard about if they where even involved directly ? Is Square so smart on something like this that they should be allowed to erase you based on their "opinion" of something they are obviously bias and covering up their failure ?
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 25 2009 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
Their world, their rules. Its as simple as that, really. Accidently coding a drop rate to 100% is different from a BUG that through the users actions can cause 3 chests to spawn instead of 1. Another difference is that those idiots who just got banned actively tried to keep news of the bug from getting to Squeenix so that they could take advantage as long as possible before the bug got fixed. They conspired with other players and they got caught. Too bad, so sad.

Also, I find it unlikely that this bug exploit is the ONLY reason these people are banned. The fact is, a cheater is more likely to break the rules and exploit for their own advantage than someone who happened to find the glitch by accident. An honest player would have reported the bug, which is very likely how Squeenix found out about it in the first place. The dishonest ones who tried to keep it hush hush, odds are this isn't the ONLY thing they were dishonest about. Liars lie, after all. I say "Good Riddance."
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 25 2009 at 2:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Two points. First, SE is a business, with rights of their own, including the right to refuse service. These players that got banned, they are no longer paying. Their rights ended where SE's rights began, simple as that. Second, SE looked over a year worth of logs to determine their course of action. They considered each person on a case-by-case basis. I know some people that got away with it, even though they had been reported. One would have to assume that they were not the "worst case scenario" that SE was hunting for. It's irrational to assume that any involvement would get you banned, the obvious fact is that there were other factors leading up to their removal. Most if not all were cheaters in other ways, a fact SE would discover as they pored over the logs. That being said, I do agree with your core argument that they should not be punished for simply taking advantage of a glitch, I would think it difficult to ascertain that any function is a glitch, and reasonable to assume that if it can be done without extraordinary or external means, it must be allowed. Everybody knows of some "trick" they can use in the game to accomplish something, and even at that, I would argue that SE hides tricks and secrets throughout the game, how would a person know that they hadn't discovered one such trick?
why get punished for bug in software
# Jan 26 2009 at 5:38 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
They considered each person on a case-by-case basis

Quote:
It's irrational to assume that any involvement would get you banned


dream on...
What exploit?
# Jan 23 2009 at 6:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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130 posts
I'm just curious, and since it's been fixed it shouldn't be an issue anymore, what was this exploit people were taking advantage of?
What exploit?
# Jan 23 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
17,302 posts
From the way it sounds, when the alliance broke, the treasure pool was copied for each party. Duplicating any drops currently in the pool.
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
What exploit?
# Jan 23 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
41 posts
The exploit was that, through breaking and reforming alliances in certain areas, assaults, nyzul, salvage, sandworm BC's and I heard mention at some point of enm's but I'm not sure if that was me misreading. You were able to double or triple the number of drops that you should have been receiving.
token effort
# Jan 22 2009 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
900 is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of people who actually exploited this.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
token effort
# Jan 26 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
Lobivopis wrote:
900 is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of people who actually exploited this.


I believe SE banned/suspended those players who abused this glitch time and time again. The 900 players was just a warning to others so in effect, that was their warning too. I also think players in general thought they were above the law, and now that SE is enforcing the law, people will think twice.
banned
# Jan 22 2009 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
anyone have list of banned players?
FALLLLCON!!!!
# Jan 22 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
PWNED!
GUITLY!
# Jan 22 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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832 posts
I all I have to say to those who were stupid enough to think they could of get away with it without consequences..... lolz!!
fair & square-enix
# Jan 22 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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135 posts
Hell yea! This is retribution! I'm glad they didn't just ignore those people.


Edited, Jan 22nd 2009 12:55pm by Uma
They really did it
# Jan 22 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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3,530 posts
lolol
They really did it
# Jan 23 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
*Starts Eating Popcorn*.. Lol. ..Hahhahahaha. silly cheaters. Not even thinking ahead, and about consequence.
#REDACTED, Posted: Jan 26 2009 at 3:36 PM, Rating: Unrated, (Expand Post) mind your own business square enix....pfft heh, lmao, roflmnao, ^^
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