Cataclysm to Change Instance Structure

Devs reveal how 10-man and 25-man content will be altered when the expansion is released.

We knew that Blizzard was going to be making a ton of changes to the game when the expansion pack was released. Now they reveal the structural changes in the way 10-man and 25-man raid content will be handled.

From a blue post today by Nethaera:

We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards

  • 10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
  • 10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.


We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

We'll keep you posted as more Cataclysm news is revealed.

Comments

Post Comment
10 25 raid in Cataclysm
# May 06 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
i think this is a bad idea i can only raid on weekends and i could do a zone twice on 10 and 25 man soo it would give me a chance to raid more alls this is doing is gonna make me play less or not at all
Fixed mindset
# May 01 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Default
Ok, this is the year of 2010 and we are STILL fixed on the idea of making raids for a fixed number of players. What happened to creativity and dynamics? I mean, if you gather 15 ppl and decide you wanna go raiding. Why would it be so bloody hard to make the raid adapt to the raid groups composition and size? Many guilds stuggle getting 25 ppl to a raid and other guilds with high progress struggle to limit the number to 25. Make those limits of 10 and 25 obsolete pls, geez, we can send ppl to the moon and back but can't make a scalable instance?
Fixed mindset
# May 01 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
Azzym wrote:
Ok, this is the year of 2010 and we are STILL fixed on the idea of making raids for a fixed number of players. What happened to creativity and dynamics? I mean, if you gather 15 ppl and decide you wanna go raiding. Why would it be so bloody hard to make the raid adapt to the raid groups composition and size? Many guilds stuggle getting 25 ppl to a raid and other guilds with high progress struggle to limit the number to 25. Make those limits of 10 and 25 obsolete pls, geez, we can send ppl to the moon and back but can't make a scalable instance?


It would be incredibly difficult, to be honest. They balance the instances around having certain number of players there, and in a general setup. For 25mans it is 2/3 Tanks, 6/7 healers, 16/17 dps. For 10mans it is 2 Tanks, 2/3 Healers, 5/6 dps. Imagine if they had to scale to some random number in between, it would ruin the entire design as it wouldn't be possible to have the bosses hp jump up just a small % or make the mechanics different enough to do so.

Oh, and until Blizzard themselves sends people to the moon and back, I wouldn't use that argument for anything other than the govt.
this is cool
# Apr 30 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
another issue that this covers, without it being mentioned, is the fact that some guilds just never had the chance to get the 25 people to do 25 man content. not that its harder, but scheduling being scheduling, they never get the people for it ( or the right amount of people in the same place at the same time to do it ). point being, those guilds only are able to hit up ten man content, and while they feel proud of it ( and i do feel proud of it ), i've run into people who literally sneer down their noses at people who do ten man content, and call it 'raid content,' as if to say that they're that much better then other people, just because they're lucky enough to do 25 man content. in effect, they're like an olympic runners, making derisive remarks about how average joes blow not able to run as fast as they are, despite knowing that there are ankle chains strapped to the poor guys' legs.
not easy
# Apr 28 2010 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
***
2,602 posts
10 mans are certainly not easier. theres no room for error, each person needs to do their best. in 25 mans you can afford a few stragglers. [leaving heroics aside]

they will simply tweak the amount of rewards in 25 mans till people are motivated enough.
not easy
# Apr 28 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
Tenjen wrote:
10 mans are certainly not easier. theres no room for error, each person needs to do their best. in 25 mans you can afford a few stragglers. [leaving heroics aside]

they will simply tweak the amount of rewards in 25 mans till people are motivated enough.


10 mans are very much easier than 25mans. It is significantly easier to get 10 very good players in a raid than to get 25 even overall decent/good players into a raid. Almost every single fight in the wotlk is easier on 10man, with the exception of OS3D when it was current content.
the only way I see this working
# Apr 27 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Default
Tbe only way I see this working is for 25 mans to drop 3xs the loot off trash and bosses compared to 10 mans. That way people can get the same gear quicker as a reward for completing it on 25 man as compared to 10. Also, coming for a successful "PUG" raiding group for my 25 mans, I'm kinda disappointed not to be able to run my 25 man in RET and my 10 man in PROT. Just so I can level 2 sets at once. Now I'll have to wait on someone to pass on an item for me to get it in 25 mans esp with the way the new stats are going to be. Gear is going to be cut throat as it is due to the stat changes, so less of it would make no since.
Drawn and Quartered
# Apr 27 2010 at 2:04 AM Rating: Default
So in Cataclysm, they're making changes like this, which encourage PUG raiding and make organized guild raids less important, while discouraging PUG raids or smaller guilds with the guild achievement/talents system.

Good to see a clear direction.
Drawn and Quartered
# Apr 28 2010 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,602 posts
Quote:
So in Cataclysm, they're making changes like this, which encourage PUG raiding and make organized guild raids less important, while discouraging PUG raids or smaller guilds with the guild achievement/talents system.

Good to see a clear direction.



You're trying to find an issue that doesnt exist. Indicating that they dont have a clear direction.

That is short sighted however. They have a very clear direction. To make the game more available.

These changes encourage organised/guild raiding just as much as they do pugs.

The fact that 10/25mans are saved to each other ruins stuff for raids.
the changes that you say encourage pug raiding also encourages guild raids and more casuals to raid [those who have time constraints at least].

As for pugs, pugs **** up toc, they're gonna **** up these future raids. loot will be stolen, bosses will be impassible.

it in no way makes organised raids less important. Other than making things more convenient for everyone and all sorts of raiders.
Point?
# Apr 27 2010 at 12:44 AM Rating: Default
So if 10 mans are easier... and give you the same exact loot, will there be a point to doing 25 man?
wtf
# Apr 26 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Default
seriously, just leave them alone.
Thread discussing this
# Apr 26 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
I made a thread on this 40 minutes before this news story was published.

http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=21&mid=1272303655255528030&num=2&page=1

Feel free to discuss the changes there :-)
Post Comment

Free account required to post

You must log in or create an account to post messages.