As a healer in Norrath, I have noticed a troubling trend. Now I understand that as a warrior your blood is boiling to fight. I respect that, even count on that. But when you are in a group, especially in an LDON adventure, please, please, please stop pulling, sit down and relax when your healer(s) say they are out of or low on mana.
Maybe this is an educational thing. Maybe the wiring in the fighter's brain does not connect the healer's mana source as being that stuff that makes his little red bar stay up when fighting. Maybe it is more simple than that...maybe they just do not know what OOM or LOM means. We assume they would ask, but maybe not. OOM = out of mana: this means the caster cannot heal you or anyone else and needs time to sit and med, preferably without having people die while it is happening. LOM = low on mana: this means that there may be one or two heals left so be cautious. The healer will need to sit and med. If they say LOM and then heal you, expect to see OOM soon thereafter.
A good tank should ALWAYS ask his group "How's mana?" before pulling. It is also good to discuss pulling with the group. Find out what percent mana is ok to make a pull of one, of two, of more...etc.
Which gets me to buffing. You like our buffs. You need our buffs. You ask for our buffs. If there is one healer taking care of 3 tanks, that is a lot of buffs. That can deplete a full mana bar to a dangerous level. When your buffs run out, ask. Then expect to sit while the healer meds for healing mana after casting the buffs. Far too often the tank that has just been buffed, in a stat-enhanced frenzy, decides to pull the next room to test his new found resiliency only to find the healer is unable to keep up with his ability to get pounded by bad guys.
Bottom line is, you need us and we need you. We do not run around healing you when you do not need it, so please do not run around needing healed when we cannot help you!
And I know it is boring. How many times do I hear tanks complaining about being bored when I am the only healer in a group and they are waiting on me. If you are bored, go ahead, pull, be my guest. If you find it exciting to die and watch the rest of the group run to the zone, pull away when the healer says OOM or LOM. I will be sitting in the corner medding and while I am at it, I think I will mem gate.
I will die trying to save my group members. That is my job. I will give every last drop of mana to keep you alive. I will not be healing myself. I will not run to the zone. UNLESS you are a stupid tank that cannot follow the above rules, then I am healing the rational members of the group and helping them and I get to the zone.
Thank you,
Doktore Soose
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- Need more level headed tanks! A plea from a healer
Need more level headed tanks! A plea from a healerFollow
Speaking to some of my fellow players on the issue, sometimes the OOM or LOM gets lost in all of the battle spam. If you leave the default chat window with the default filters you see all of your attacks/misses, your party's attacks/misses, and the mob's attack/misses. This is a lot of stuff flying across the screen, and GSAY messages by default are a horrible color that doesn't stand out. If you are only issuing a GSAY there is a really good chance that the message may be missed if users leave the EQ interface at its default settings.
Creating another chat window that is fairly small in size (and unobtrusive) is a good way to reduce some of the battle spam. In the main chat window I filter all attacks/misses, and in the secondary (My Hits) window I put all of my hits and misses (or the party's). Nine times out of ten I'm only really interested in my DPS, for I can easily ses if the mob is quickly dying due to party damage. In the main chat window I change the default colors - GSAY to yellow and keep SHOUT at RED.
As a cleric I create a button the does both GSAY and SHOUT for OOM and LOM messages. Shout by default are red in color and really stands out. This is a good safety net for people still using the default EQ filters & colors. A little "creative text" in the your shouts can also get the point across rather effectively:
Out of Mana - You hit...you die 10% Mana - Only one Greater Healing left 20% Mana - 2 Greater Healing or 1 Celestial Health
With LDON I tend to use shout a lot. You're the only party in the dungeon so you don't need to worry about zone spam.
Creating another chat window that is fairly small in size (and unobtrusive) is a good way to reduce some of the battle spam. In the main chat window I filter all attacks/misses, and in the secondary (My Hits) window I put all of my hits and misses (or the party's). Nine times out of ten I'm only really interested in my DPS, for I can easily ses if the mob is quickly dying due to party damage. In the main chat window I change the default colors - GSAY to yellow and keep SHOUT at RED.
As a cleric I create a button the does both GSAY and SHOUT for OOM and LOM messages. Shout by default are red in color and really stands out. This is a good safety net for people still using the default EQ filters & colors. A little "creative text" in the your shouts can also get the point across rather effectively:
With LDON I tend to use shout a lot. You're the only party in the dungeon so you don't need to worry about zone spam.
Quote:
With LDON I tend to use shout a lot. You're the only party in the dungeon so you don't need to worry about zone spam.
Thats interesting, because I always use a sperate group window -i just find it a whole lot easier and don't have /g everything. My own hits are set to some discgusting color that i cant miss.
Unfortunately I would miss your shouts all together, I very rarely take any notice of anything that is not in group (or tell) when im in a group - where ever it may be.
I would die under your care :( ..
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I also use a separate window for shouts, ooc and auction which I really pretty much ignore in LDoN missions. I have groupchat, /say and emotes in one window so if you use grouptalk I hear that.
If you are saying LOM or OOM in groupchat and they ignore it/miss it that is pretty much on them. When they go to pull you might want to say "Ack! LOM" or something. Maybe send them a quick tell? Eventually, someone is going to die if they keep pulling. Being the healer, perhaps you can ensure it is them. Think of it as a community service. Further, if you let them end the battle low on health, they probably will not be as quick to run off.
Generally when I pull I don't ask about mana much. When people say LOM or OOM I catch it and wait. Perhaps after the first pull after a med break I will re-check mana.
When I play a healer, I really try to minimize my actions. As a cleric in LDoN I am sort of responsible for stunning casters (especially complete heal or gate casters), and that can drain mana quick. In a pickup group I let people know that in advance. Usually after a caster battle I just announce my mana, whatever it is, to keep people informed. Casters aren't too common so it doesn't add too much chatter. Other than that, I keep my butt on the ground, standing just to move up or heal.
Lastly, there is a fraction of dingbats out there and LDoN really exposes them. Pulling is key to LDoN and working with a good puller is a joy and a bad one a nightmare. Find the good ones. Use your /friends list or join a guild. I have had some luck with pre-arranged times, e.g. "I'm going to be on at 8pm PST tomarrow and up for a mission. Anyone else?" If you can get just one or two other people there it makes compelting a group so much easier. Of course you have to be able to be online semi-consistently.
Good luck.
If you are saying LOM or OOM in groupchat and they ignore it/miss it that is pretty much on them. When they go to pull you might want to say "Ack! LOM" or something. Maybe send them a quick tell? Eventually, someone is going to die if they keep pulling. Being the healer, perhaps you can ensure it is them. Think of it as a community service. Further, if you let them end the battle low on health, they probably will not be as quick to run off.
Generally when I pull I don't ask about mana much. When people say LOM or OOM I catch it and wait. Perhaps after the first pull after a med break I will re-check mana.
When I play a healer, I really try to minimize my actions. As a cleric in LDoN I am sort of responsible for stunning casters (especially complete heal or gate casters), and that can drain mana quick. In a pickup group I let people know that in advance. Usually after a caster battle I just announce my mana, whatever it is, to keep people informed. Casters aren't too common so it doesn't add too much chatter. Other than that, I keep my butt on the ground, standing just to move up or heal.
Lastly, there is a fraction of dingbats out there and LDoN really exposes them. Pulling is key to LDoN and working with a good puller is a joy and a bad one a nightmare. Find the good ones. Use your /friends list or join a guild. I have had some luck with pre-arranged times, e.g. "I'm going to be on at 8pm PST tomarrow and up for a mission. Anyone else?" If you can get just one or two other people there it makes compelting a group so much easier. Of course you have to be able to be online semi-consistently.
Good luck.
Quote:
A good tank should ALWAYS ask his group "How's mana?" before pulling
I play by the opposite set of rules. I'm going to pull until you tell me I have to stop. Asking each and every time is just a waste of both our times; I'm usually off pulling again before the current battle is even finished. I'll respect you when you say you're out of mana and I'll stop pulling, but it's up to you to let me know. LOM calls will usually get you a "Are we cool for another?" and the pulls adjusted accordingly.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Well, actually it should be two way...that is how I do it. But as people have pointed out, messages get missed, especially during combat. If the tank asks "How's mana?" then he knows the answer whether he missed a tell or no not. It is a two directional process, but most healers do give mana reports. So if you wait to be told to stop, that is fine. I have grouped with tanks that do not ask and apparently do not know what OOM, LOM and a 10m or 20m statement mean. I am constantly reporting, not just during battle when it is easy to miss, and still there are tanks that pull when I am 10m. Which is why I think that a good tank asks. It shows he is mindful of it if nothing else.
I have grouped with tanks where I will say, "Pull until I tell you to stop"...but that is not the tanks decision, it should be the healer's decision.
I like the idea of using shout in LDON. The person who said they would miss the shout...probably not in LDON. There are no shouts or OOCs occuring so a red or green message (using the default colors) is good. I always use a seperate window for chatting and have changed colors so that the most improtant items get displayed with emphasis...but here again, it is not me who is missing the messages it is the tank. If I say "OOM, do not pull, I need to med" (which is more than I should have to say, OOM should say it all) and the half-witted tank moves to the next room and pulls, he is the one who either missed the message or did not understand (or I suppose, did not care and does not mind running naked from their bind-point).
The bottom line for me is if you are a pulling tank that is not making yourself fully aware of the healer's mana situation, you are not doing your job properly. You have no business pulling since you do not know what your group can and cannot handle at that moment. That is the way I see it.
I have grouped with tanks where I will say, "Pull until I tell you to stop"...but that is not the tanks decision, it should be the healer's decision.
I like the idea of using shout in LDON. The person who said they would miss the shout...probably not in LDON. There are no shouts or OOCs occuring so a red or green message (using the default colors) is good. I always use a seperate window for chatting and have changed colors so that the most improtant items get displayed with emphasis...but here again, it is not me who is missing the messages it is the tank. If I say "OOM, do not pull, I need to med" (which is more than I should have to say, OOM should say it all) and the half-witted tank moves to the next room and pulls, he is the one who either missed the message or did not understand (or I suppose, did not care and does not mind running naked from their bind-point).
The bottom line for me is if you are a pulling tank that is not making yourself fully aware of the healer's mana situation, you are not doing your job properly. You have no business pulling since you do not know what your group can and cannot handle at that moment. That is the way I see it.
Quote:
The bottom line for me is if you are a pulling tank that is not making yourself fully aware of the healer's mana situation, you are not doing your job properly. You have no business pulling since you do not know what your group can and cannot handle at that moment. That is the way I see it.
Tell me Ihuffman, have you ever played any sort of tank or melee?
Just interested
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Well I'm a cleric (amongst other things) and I heartily concur that it is up to the cleric to call mana. If the puller asked about mana every pull I'd start to think he didn't trust me. I'll sometimes give out press releases on mana like it's "holding steady" or "going down slowly" but the main thing is trust. I trust the puller to hold if I call OOM (after a LOM warning) and hopefully he trusts me to warn him and keeps pulling.
If by chance you find yourself grouped with a complete wazzock who cannot hold back despite LOM and OOM calls then stop healing him. He won't go and pull on 40% health so heal him up when you have enough mana. Don't heal him then expect to med because you just wound him up and he has to dash off.
I play with 7 chat boxes up. 2 are to replace the old hitsmode ones and live transparently at the top of the screen so all battle spam goes there. I have group in it's own box and I do not expect any competent person to miss group messages.
On FV a lot of people play with /shout and /auc turned off so the usefulness of those is diminished.
If by chance you find yourself grouped with a complete wazzock who cannot hold back despite LOM and OOM calls then stop healing him. He won't go and pull on 40% health so heal him up when you have enough mana. Don't heal him then expect to med because you just wound him up and he has to dash off.
I play with 7 chat boxes up. 2 are to replace the old hitsmode ones and live transparently at the top of the screen so all battle spam goes there. I have group in it's own box and I do not expect any competent person to miss group messages.
On FV a lot of people play with /shout and /auc turned off so the usefulness of those is diminished.
Wherever I go - there I am.
When grouped for battle I only pay close attention to two chat boxes (as healer or nuker) the group chat box (or raid say if its a raid) and the spell warning box (spell warning box also has enrage warning directed to it).
I occasionally look at the normal spell info box just to amuse my self with the "Celeni hits a motley rat for 1386 damage" messages. But everything else is consigned to minimised windows.
So if someone is using say, ooc, or shout I will never see it.
The reason I do this is because I am usually very busy, and any distraction could be very dangerous for my group mates.
As far as mana communication is concerned, I always start broadcasting (in group) my mana level once it hits 50%. Any puller/MA who ignores my plaintive call "35 mana" does so at his/her own risk.
As a Ranger I do something similar, I have a melee warning box for enrage, rampage etc. I have the group/rs box and a spell warning box - need to know when snare is resisted or root drops - and my own hits, need to know how effective you are being and if you are out of range etc. Everything else is filtered away.
Using chat windows and the filter is an essential skill and all players should learn how touse these wisely.
I occasionally look at the normal spell info box just to amuse my self with the "Celeni hits a motley rat for 1386 damage" messages. But everything else is consigned to minimised windows.
So if someone is using say, ooc, or shout I will never see it.
The reason I do this is because I am usually very busy, and any distraction could be very dangerous for my group mates.
As far as mana communication is concerned, I always start broadcasting (in group) my mana level once it hits 50%. Any puller/MA who ignores my plaintive call "35 mana" does so at his/her own risk.
As a Ranger I do something similar, I have a melee warning box for enrage, rampage etc. I have the group/rs box and a spell warning box - need to know when snare is resisted or root drops - and my own hits, need to know how effective you are being and if you are out of range etc. Everything else is filtered away.
Using chat windows and the filter is an essential skill and all players should learn how touse these wisely.
I do not know how I ever managed with one chat window. It was easy to miss group talk. Now my second window is ONLY group, spells running out, since by pet is a haste timer, and skill ups since they are so limited.
Everbody should do that, but some people do not know it.
I agree that the cleric's message should be VERY clear, like "OOM - STOP OR DIE", just in case your puller just ebayed his account and doesn't know the lingo.
Everbody should do that, but some people do not know it.
I agree that the cleric's message should be VERY clear, like "OOM - STOP OR DIE", just in case your puller just ebayed his account and doesn't know the lingo.
Ihuffman
I primarily play a mage but from time to time I play my shadow knight (level 27). Naturally it's in my (and everybody else's) best interest to make sure there's enough mana to keep me alive. I hear where you're coming from but let me ask you this, do you nuke if you're say at 50% mana? This might seem like a silly question but more often than you want to know about I see:
Usually my response to something like this starts out by telling the cleric if they wanted to nuke they should have played a nuking class such as a wizard or a mage. A lot of times when playing a tank I will back off and let the cleric/druid/shaman med up a bit but there's also the other side of the coin.
On to your point with buffs. Even in a group of 6 not everybody needs every buff you have. Granted it makes people feel good to have everything available but it isn't productive in some situations. Give the main tank in the group the primary buffs so for instance if my SK was the main tank he would typically get:
Spirit Armor
Bravery
Symbol
And everybody else would get just Bravery. If the group works together the main tank would be taking 90% of the hits if not more. Everybody else would just need a quick patch heal once in awhile.
As for the complaining tanks, just ignore them. If things get painfully slow they'll leave and you can replace them.
I primarily play a mage but from time to time I play my shadow knight (level 27). Naturally it's in my (and everybody else's) best interest to make sure there's enough mana to keep me alive. I hear where you're coming from but let me ask you this, do you nuke if you're say at 50% mana? This might seem like a silly question but more often than you want to know about I see:
Quote:
<party cleric> begins to cast a spell.
<mob you're fighting>writhes with agony.
<party cleric> begins to cast a spell.
<mob you're fighting>writhes with agony.
<party cleric>LOM!
<mob you're fighting>writhes with agony.
<party cleric> begins to cast a spell.
<mob you're fighting>writhes with agony.
<party cleric>LOM!
Usually my response to something like this starts out by telling the cleric if they wanted to nuke they should have played a nuking class such as a wizard or a mage. A lot of times when playing a tank I will back off and let the cleric/druid/shaman med up a bit but there's also the other side of the coin.
On to your point with buffs. Even in a group of 6 not everybody needs every buff you have. Granted it makes people feel good to have everything available but it isn't productive in some situations. Give the main tank in the group the primary buffs so for instance if my SK was the main tank he would typically get:
Spirit Armor
Bravery
Symbol
And everybody else would get just Bravery. If the group works together the main tank would be taking 90% of the hits if not more. Everybody else would just need a quick patch heal once in awhile.
As for the complaining tanks, just ignore them. If things get painfully slow they'll leave and you can replace them.
Yes, I played a tanking barb warrior to the upper 40s and then moved on to other classes. Was my first character, actually. I always made sure the healer had mana. Actually not always. I learned in the orc camps in EC at a tender age that not doing so meant death (this was way back when EQ was first hatched...pre-expansion).
I am not really debating. I know that there are tanks that will have varying opinions. But the fact remains, if you pull when your healer is lom or oom there is a good chance that things will go bad. There are many ways to work this out, but pulling when the healer says LOM or OOM is not one of them. And asking is always acceptable if you have not seen a report recently.
My post was prompted by the last three adventures I went on. In each case the pulling tank was an idiot. They ran ahead and pulled even when we would say stop. It was not just myself but all of the casters and even the other tanks that were screaming STOP. In each one of the three. It was like deja vu each time. Earlier last week I ran accross this two other times.
I left the game for 8 months. After coming back I have noticed a change in group dynamics. I still see alot of good people in groups, but I also have seen a rising number of people who play a group situation like they are soloing. As the healer it is most obvious in tanks. But it seems that people break mezzes more, wizzies go on full burn more, enchies and druids do not use all of their spells...just blast blast blast.
Don't get me wrong. Many have been great...and in the past there were those who did exactly what I am complaining about...it just seems the numbers of idiot groupers have risen. That is all. Actually, most of you taking the time read and reply here are probably not one of them.
I am not really debating. I know that there are tanks that will have varying opinions. But the fact remains, if you pull when your healer is lom or oom there is a good chance that things will go bad. There are many ways to work this out, but pulling when the healer says LOM or OOM is not one of them. And asking is always acceptable if you have not seen a report recently.
My post was prompted by the last three adventures I went on. In each case the pulling tank was an idiot. They ran ahead and pulled even when we would say stop. It was not just myself but all of the casters and even the other tanks that were screaming STOP. In each one of the three. It was like deja vu each time. Earlier last week I ran accross this two other times.
I left the game for 8 months. After coming back I have noticed a change in group dynamics. I still see alot of good people in groups, but I also have seen a rising number of people who play a group situation like they are soloing. As the healer it is most obvious in tanks. But it seems that people break mezzes more, wizzies go on full burn more, enchies and druids do not use all of their spells...just blast blast blast.
Don't get me wrong. Many have been great...and in the past there were those who did exactly what I am complaining about...it just seems the numbers of idiot groupers have risen. That is all. Actually, most of you taking the time read and reply here are probably not one of them.
And yes, I stand by what I said. If you are the pulling tank, your job is to pull what your group can handle. If you do not know what your healer's mana is at, then you do not know what your group can handle. If your healer is not reporting, then you have a bad healer, so you have to ask. If they are not reporting that does not mean you pull to spite them. You have to ask if you do not know. If they are telling you, you base your pulling decision upon them.
That simple, for the person wanting to know if I have ever played a tank. Yes I have. And even had I not, the above is still true.
That simple, for the person wanting to know if I have ever played a tank. Yes I have. And even had I not, the above is still true.
As a healer I agree with the topic starter Ihuffman. Too many pullers don't know the limits of the game it seems however many do and they are very welcome additions to any group. Playing my necro I commit the apparently cardinal sin of twitching the healer to allow the entire group to progress quicker. Playing an SK, I often despair at the delays waiting for people to meditate but it has to be done to ensure success.
And to any puller or tank that continues to pull after a OOM message from the healer or even the slower then quite simply you deserve to die. For one reason:
There is no mana available to heal you! The slower can't cast and it increases the heals needed!
Sit for about 3 or 4 minutes. Take a bio break. Grab a drink. It's that easy. Frustrating I agree, but easy to do and you will be loved for it.
Or you could solo. Now that would be slower would it not?
Grouping is all about working as a team. This subject has been on so many forums and threads it's getting silly.
And to any puller or tank that continues to pull after a OOM message from the healer or even the slower then quite simply you deserve to die. For one reason:
There is no mana available to heal you! The slower can't cast and it increases the heals needed!
Sit for about 3 or 4 minutes. Take a bio break. Grab a drink. It's that easy. Frustrating I agree, but easy to do and you will be loved for it.
Or you could solo. Now that would be slower would it not?
Grouping is all about working as a team. This subject has been on so many forums and threads it's getting silly.
Tweelis Twitchydigits,
I am sure you are all sick of me by now...but I do not post much...this is just an open sore after the weekend.
I agree wholeheartedly about nuking clerics. I do not nuke. I will root if there is not a rooter, though I prefer to use mana for health unless it is buff time. The only time I nuke is if I am soloing (which is so rare anymore) and when I group with one other and I can finish the battle with a blast.
As for buffs...well, I have tried that. I keep telling the tanks to stop taunting and let primary take the brunt, but they do not, so the extra buffs help. The truth is, if the supporting tanks would let the primary get agro and keep it, everyone's job is easier, less buffing and one big happy group. That just is not what is happening anymore.
I am sure you are all sick of me by now...but I do not post much...this is just an open sore after the weekend.
I agree wholeheartedly about nuking clerics. I do not nuke. I will root if there is not a rooter, though I prefer to use mana for health unless it is buff time. The only time I nuke is if I am soloing (which is so rare anymore) and when I group with one other and I can finish the battle with a blast.
As for buffs...well, I have tried that. I keep telling the tanks to stop taunting and let primary take the brunt, but they do not, so the extra buffs help. The truth is, if the supporting tanks would let the primary get agro and keep it, everyone's job is easier, less buffing and one big happy group. That just is not what is happening anymore.
I've been several times in an LDoN group with a cleric where his stuns were the key to success against caster mobs.
Anything except for stun, healing or long-term-buffs on the melees was considered a waste of mana to him and he was probably right.
Anything except for stun, healing or long-term-buffs on the melees was considered a waste of mana to him and he was probably right.
Quote:
If by chance you find yourself grouped with a complete wazzock who cannot hold back despite LOM and OOM calls then stop healing him. He won't go and pull on 40% health so heal him up when you have enough mana. Don't heal him then expect to med because you just wound him up and he has to dash off.
Haha, so true. I group with a particular monk very often; I love him to death but he's a crazy fast puller. I have been known to make him wait for a heal until mend is up, by which time I've medded back to full mana. Silly lizard.
I will say, though, that he's a great player and very exciting to adventure with - just needs to be reminded once in a while that those multiple pulls can put a temporary strain on healer mana. This is more true when we have no CC but root, as often happens.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
I play a 35 Druid as my main and sometimes I am the main healer. Sometimes, even with a cleric, I am the main healer b/c the cleric does not do thier job. I also use a separate window for group chat, but recognizing that not everyone does, I click the OOM or 1/4 Mana hot button 3 or 4 times if there is a lot of chat traffic scrolling by. I have had the same problem with tanks - I hate when I can't get mana above 20% because they won't wait. This goes for snare and DoT spells as well as heal...one bad add or train and the party is toast - I've seen it happen to many times. Please listen to the casters. Its far better to be bored for a few ticks than to have to run from your bind point to your corpse.
I have been following this thread with inteset since i have a 34 cleric and i never seem to have the problems that you are bringing up ..... at least not more than once anyway. You have to be firm as a healer and no one should be in a confusion over the fact that YOU run the group, not the tank not the slower the HEALER.
here are some ways to make sure that you keep control.
1. have a good LOM hotkey
/g Getting LOM pleae check before you pull next mob.
/em looks pale and breaths heavily in the corner.
2. If you are under 3m update your group after a pull that way they know if you mana is dropping or recovering.
3. Melee and nuke only if 4m or higher and the group is going well, there is a place for you to do this but choose the time and place well.
4. Have a strong OOM hotkey make it blatantly obvious that if the tank pulls you will not be healing him
/g Cleric OOM if you pull and you die it's not on my head!
/em slumps to the floor exhausted <--- could be out of action for a while.
5. If a Tank repeatedly pulls when your OOM don't heal at the end of the fight untill you are at 3m he won't pull if he is at 25% hit points.
if the Tank pulls when your OOm and copes easily, then except he knows what he is doing and don't get on his back
here are some ways to make sure that you keep control.
1. have a good LOM hotkey
/g Getting LOM pleae check before you pull next mob.
/em looks pale and breaths heavily in the corner.
2. If you are under 3m update your group after a pull that way they know if you mana is dropping or recovering.
3. Melee and nuke only if 4m or higher and the group is going well, there is a place for you to do this but choose the time and place well.
4. Have a strong OOM hotkey make it blatantly obvious that if the tank pulls you will not be healing him
/g Cleric OOM if you pull and you die it's not on my head!
/em slumps to the floor exhausted <--- could be out of action for a while.
5. If a Tank repeatedly pulls when your OOM don't heal at the end of the fight untill you are at 3m he won't pull if he is at 25% hit points.
if the Tank pulls when your OOm and copes easily, then except he knows what he is doing and don't get on his back
Quote:
You have to be firm as a healer and no one should be in a confusion over the fact that YOU run the group, not the tank not the slower the HEALER
The group leader runs the group. That's the guy with both the Invite and Disband buttons lit up. I've been in more than one LDoN where the moment we invited the cleric they started trying to throw their virtual weight around. They were pretty extreme cases, but so far it's gotten them a "I don't think this is going to work out" and their *** thrown out on the curb. If you want to exclusively run the show, turn on your LFP option and get to work recruiting people.
Don't get me wrong, if the puller is a ****** and won't listen, cut your losses and get out of there before it costs you a death. You'll have to make the decision in an LDoN if it's worth cutting out on a mission in midstream and it may be better to just suck it up and roll your eyes for ninety minutes. But joining a group with your panties already in a knot is a great way to **** people off.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
I've been in more than one LDoN where the moment we invited the cleric they started trying to throw their virtual weight around. They were pretty extreme cases, but so far it's gotten them a "I don't think this is going to work out" and their *** thrown out on the curb.
Hmm i think i came across slightly different to what i ment too . by controlling the group i mean controlling the pace of the group, i.e the pull rate, whether pulling 2 is ok and split tank etc. I don't mean to come across like you should bully the group into doing exactly what you say, just do it enough to keep everyone alive.
As a tank in Norrath, I think I can offer an informed opinion coming from a tank perspective. My main is a 54 pally has done a majority of his leveling in LDoN.
I see two issues which are being confused. The healer's job vs the puller's job. You are absolutely correct that the puller should not be pulling after you have informed him that you are LOM. Make certain he is aware of it though after a mob has been killed so it does not get lost in battle spam. Capital letters help too.
That having been said, the puller's job is to pull. In a LDoN, his job is to pull as quickly as possible after the first mob is down. If the puller is not the MT, he should be pulling before the first mob is down, as you have a limited amount of time in the dungeon. It is not the puller's job to ask about your mana unless there is reason to think you may be LOM or if he is getting ready for a pull where there may be adds or pulling a named. Asking you about your mana slows down him from doing his job.
Buffs are another subject. In LDoN, buffs should be done before entering the dungeon. The only buffs refreshed during the dungeon are the ones which are absolutely necessary (haste and clarity in particular). General buffs are nice but do not add enough to compensate for the added medtime during a timed mission.
Just my 2 cp...
I see two issues which are being confused. The healer's job vs the puller's job. You are absolutely correct that the puller should not be pulling after you have informed him that you are LOM. Make certain he is aware of it though after a mob has been killed so it does not get lost in battle spam. Capital letters help too.
That having been said, the puller's job is to pull. In a LDoN, his job is to pull as quickly as possible after the first mob is down. If the puller is not the MT, he should be pulling before the first mob is down, as you have a limited amount of time in the dungeon. It is not the puller's job to ask about your mana unless there is reason to think you may be LOM or if he is getting ready for a pull where there may be adds or pulling a named. Asking you about your mana slows down him from doing his job.
Buffs are another subject. In LDoN, buffs should be done before entering the dungeon. The only buffs refreshed during the dungeon are the ones which are absolutely necessary (haste and clarity in particular). General buffs are nice but do not add enough to compensate for the added medtime during a timed mission.
Just my 2 cp...
My main is a 65 Cleric, but recently I picked up a Paladin and have been playing him more. And many times in an LDON I am puller since I now have my 51 Pacify. I have always played by "pull until healer says stop" method. As a Cleric I was annoyed by the tank that said "Mana?" after every fight, especially since my main never gets even close to OOM on an LDON (except hard missions).
There has been times when I have pulled a single when the cleric says OOM. I know the Cleric class well and I know my Paladin well. If I feel that the group can easily take a single then I will just have the Cleric med and we fight it. Often I will push a Cleric when an LDON mission gets close. I know what the class can take and I have yet to fail a mission or get my groups dead. To be a great Cleric I think you need to learn how to pull out and use every drop of mana and survive for a while on your last 20m (medding included of course).
I don't want to make it sound like I don't listen to my healers and just run off and pull entire rooms. I communicate with the healer and if I see OOM and know we need to keep going or lose I'll let the healer know I will just pull slow and have them conserve as much mana as possible. In the end the group is happy with the win and the healer comes away hopefully knowing more about their class and what it can take. My strategy can't be all wrong, often the same healer that is pushed and wins will be the one who invites me to their group later.
I group with a lot of Clerics, but the ones on my friends list are the ones willing to push themselves. I know I can trust these Clerics and that will be important in the 60's when a Cleric that doesn't know their class inside and out gets a group dead fast.
Just my 2cp
There has been times when I have pulled a single when the cleric says OOM. I know the Cleric class well and I know my Paladin well. If I feel that the group can easily take a single then I will just have the Cleric med and we fight it. Often I will push a Cleric when an LDON mission gets close. I know what the class can take and I have yet to fail a mission or get my groups dead. To be a great Cleric I think you need to learn how to pull out and use every drop of mana and survive for a while on your last 20m (medding included of course).
I don't want to make it sound like I don't listen to my healers and just run off and pull entire rooms. I communicate with the healer and if I see OOM and know we need to keep going or lose I'll let the healer know I will just pull slow and have them conserve as much mana as possible. In the end the group is happy with the win and the healer comes away hopefully knowing more about their class and what it can take. My strategy can't be all wrong, often the same healer that is pushed and wins will be the one who invites me to their group later.
I group with a lot of Clerics, but the ones on my friends list are the ones willing to push themselves. I know I can trust these Clerics and that will be important in the 60's when a Cleric that doesn't know their class inside and out gets a group dead fast.
Just my 2cp
LOL I have stirred up a swarm here.
As I said, I played a tank for a lot longer than I played a cleric.
Secondly, I am not a primadonna and I do give all, including dying to keep others alive, if need be. I do not blast and I med when I should. I follow the direction of the group, and I play primary healer...not blast my mana away andf then not be able to heal.
My statement about asking is in referrence to the common response, "I did not see the tell". I constantly give a mana update, so if the tank is paying attention they will get the update, and therefore does not need to ask. If you have not seen a mana report in a while and you have seen the healer giving reports all along, then you probably missed one, so ask. And if you do not know, then ask. Who is the primadonna in that case...I do not take a primmadonna stand because I will answer the question and I constatnly offer the info...I do not care so long as the group knows my mana situation. If a tank refuses to ask beccause that is not their job, then they are the primadonna.
The next issue is the tank that is told OOM and then pulls and wants to know why he was not healed.That happens frequently as well. Why do I not let him die...for those of you who say this is your answer? Because the group needs the tank! That is the point! I need to keep the tank alive because the group needs him. Oh yeah, I'll show him and let him die, and then the sub-tank, druid, necro and myself all get to try to melee the 4 mobs that the idot pulled? No...I have to keep him alive, especially in LDON.
And saying that you have to go as fast as possible in LDON, very true...possible is the key word. If you rush your pulls past your mana source, or you try to go on minimal mana it just takes one mis-pull or a trap or a caster medding to back up into the wrong area and you have a bad situation.
I have played a tank...a very good one. And I knew that I relied upon the healers mana to keep me alive. I played a druid to a very high level and quite frequently was the primary healer. I did not have these issues back then. Not as frequently as occurs now. And I am not the only one. In each group where I have had this problem, the entire group was upset with the idiot tank.
It is simple logic and common sense...if the healer is out of mana you cannot be healed. If you cannot be healed you cannot pull more than you can handle with your own HPs. If you do not know your healers mana, whether he is not telling you or you have missed the tell, you have to ask. All of the above assumes that you want to act in the best interest of the group. But the above is factual whether you like it or not. Every member of a group needs to communicate. It is essential. If one member refuses to do so, and takes action contrary to what the situation demands (ie, pulling when your healer is oom) then you are the one that is behaving detrimental to the group. If you want to just run and kill and not communicate with others, go play Diablo or Warcraft. You do not have to talk to others when you play those games, and maybe they are more suited to you.
As I said, I played a tank for a lot longer than I played a cleric.
Secondly, I am not a primadonna and I do give all, including dying to keep others alive, if need be. I do not blast and I med when I should. I follow the direction of the group, and I play primary healer...not blast my mana away andf then not be able to heal.
My statement about asking is in referrence to the common response, "I did not see the tell". I constantly give a mana update, so if the tank is paying attention they will get the update, and therefore does not need to ask. If you have not seen a mana report in a while and you have seen the healer giving reports all along, then you probably missed one, so ask. And if you do not know, then ask. Who is the primadonna in that case...I do not take a primmadonna stand because I will answer the question and I constatnly offer the info...I do not care so long as the group knows my mana situation. If a tank refuses to ask beccause that is not their job, then they are the primadonna.
The next issue is the tank that is told OOM and then pulls and wants to know why he was not healed.That happens frequently as well. Why do I not let him die...for those of you who say this is your answer? Because the group needs the tank! That is the point! I need to keep the tank alive because the group needs him. Oh yeah, I'll show him and let him die, and then the sub-tank, druid, necro and myself all get to try to melee the 4 mobs that the idot pulled? No...I have to keep him alive, especially in LDON.
And saying that you have to go as fast as possible in LDON, very true...possible is the key word. If you rush your pulls past your mana source, or you try to go on minimal mana it just takes one mis-pull or a trap or a caster medding to back up into the wrong area and you have a bad situation.
I have played a tank...a very good one. And I knew that I relied upon the healers mana to keep me alive. I played a druid to a very high level and quite frequently was the primary healer. I did not have these issues back then. Not as frequently as occurs now. And I am not the only one. In each group where I have had this problem, the entire group was upset with the idiot tank.
It is simple logic and common sense...if the healer is out of mana you cannot be healed. If you cannot be healed you cannot pull more than you can handle with your own HPs. If you do not know your healers mana, whether he is not telling you or you have missed the tell, you have to ask. All of the above assumes that you want to act in the best interest of the group. But the above is factual whether you like it or not. Every member of a group needs to communicate. It is essential. If one member refuses to do so, and takes action contrary to what the situation demands (ie, pulling when your healer is oom) then you are the one that is behaving detrimental to the group. If you want to just run and kill and not communicate with others, go play Diablo or Warcraft. You do not have to talk to others when you play those games, and maybe they are more suited to you.
Quote:
My statement about asking is in referrence to the common response, "I did not see the tell". I constantly give a mana update, so if the tank is paying attention they will get the update, and therefore does not need to ask. If you have not seen a mana report in a while and you have seen the healer giving reports all along, then you probably missed one, so ask. And if you do not know, then ask. Who is the primadonna in that case...I do not take a primmadonna stand because I will answer the question and I constatnly offer the info...I do not care so long as the group knows my mana situation. If a tank refuses to ask beccause that is not their job, then they are the primadonna.
I don't so much have an arguement with anything you've said, it's just a difference in philosophy. In my opinion, if there's something about you that the group needs to know, you tell them. If you get DoT'd, you say "Hey, I have a DoT and need a cure", you don't let the cleric heal you three times before they ask "WTF? Do you have a DOT?" If you get mezzed by one of the Miragul flying *** monkeys, you say "Mezzed" instead of waiting for someone to say "Hey, how come the main tank is standing there with his thumb up his butt?" And if you're LOM, you say so. You don't wait on someone to ask you about it.
Yeah, messages get lost. I don't know what to tell you there -- keep your eyes open I guess (general puller advice, not to you). Use seperate windows. Whatever it takes. Seriously though, it's a rare occassion when my group couldn't take one more mob, even without healer support. I remember a three person LDoN I did where the druid died, leaving me and a ranger staring at a mez-locked manticore (I play a bard). After waiting umpteen minutes for the druid to finally get back, the ranger and I ripped the cat apart in seconds flat. It was pretty funny.. we just both said "Well, guess we didn't really need to wait, huh?" Point being that a "lost" LOM call is hardly the end of the world in most circumstances and if the puller is ignoring three LOMs in a row, I don't think the problem is battlespam.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Damn laggy *** boards
Edited, Tue Jan 27 16:27:04 2004 by Jophiel
Edited, Tue Jan 27 16:27:04 2004 by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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