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#27 Jul 06 2005 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent

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gbaji wrote:

However, had you put 100% into AAs first, you could have gotten those 2 AA points after having spent only 1/9X (about 11% of the whole). You'd then get to use those two AA points, for the remainder of the total amount of experience. This is clearly "better" in every way. You don't get your first AA point until halfway through the whole process versus getting both quite a bit sooner. Since there is *zero* benefit to having a partial AA or a partial level, you will *always* be better off going 100% one or the other. No exceptions.

Never say never. In terms of absolute max/min efficiency for character power per given amount of experience earned, go 100/0 or 0/100. However, if you get burnt out (and don't log on for a day or 2 or more) by going 100 percent regular xp and the bar moving slowly or going 100 percent aaxp and not making progress towards the next level, a split would be better in terms of character power per RL time.

#28 Jul 06 2005 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent

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I think you have to find a balance between levels and AAs. If you level too fast you'll find yourself out matched by others of equal level with more AAs very quickly and you won't be able to perform as expected for your class and level.

But if you focus on just AAs - well there are a ton of them and most won't make you that much better unless you have the levels to back them up. Not to mention you just can't get into some zones without the level.

In the end you have to chose carefully what's best for your character and play style.

Many would say pause at 51 for Regen3 and Run3 - I'd add Metabolism3 to that as well (let's face it ya need to save those misty thicket picnics). And there's nothing cooler than having your first Title! Get 6-9 AAs here.

Then push on to 55 for PoV access - and some of the best xp pickup groups in the game. Here pause a bit longer and pick up those abilities unique to your class. Defensive AAs for tanks, Healing AAs for healers, and Mana saving AAs for casters. The 50s suck so chose a truly frivolous AA that you can live without to make it more fun to be in your 50s - Holy Steed, MGB, Mneumontic Retention. Get another 12-20 AAs here.

Once you've gotten the few that you can't live without - push on to 62 so you can get into BoT. Pause a bit here and really fill out your character. By now you know your weak areas and what most groups want you to be able to do - so focus on the AAs that will make your character better. Pick up another 20-40 AAs here.

Then move on to 65 - balance out your character again. By now you should be nearing 100 AAs and probably don't have many OMG critical AAs left to get. When you're ready move on and pause every few levels to balance out again. There's no rush to get to 70 and going too fast may cause you to burn out and miss some of the lower level zones. After all it's much more fun to hunt the zone when it gives 2-3% xp for each kill than later at 1%.

#29 Jul 06 2005 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good

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Brewnoe wrote:

Never say never. In terms of absolute max/min efficiency for character power per given amount of experience earned, go 100/0 or 0/100. However, if you get burnt out (and don't log on for a day or 2 or more) by going 100 percent regular xp and the bar moving slowly or going 100 percent aaxp and not making progress towards the next level, a split would be better in terms of character power per RL time.

Ok. You had me kind of agreeing with you right up until that last bit. A split is *never* better in terms of character power in RL time. Never. Ever. This is one time you really can say never, because it's actually never better.

I can kinda see the "burnt out" bit. But I still really disagree with you. All splitting exp does is make *both* things take longer. So instead of getting an AA point every hour or so in a good group, you're getting one every 3 or 4 hours instead. Sure. Your level bar is slowly moving, but slower then it would if you focused on it.

The more appropriate argument for the "burnout" condition would be if someone was tired of grinding for anything, and just figured he'd set his exp split up and not care about which comes next and at what rate. That I can kind of get. I personally get more burnt out by spending long amounts of time getting the next "thing" I want in the game, but I can accept that others might think differently. I just can't see how anyone who's tired of waiting for levels/AAs will gain *any* benefit from splitting exp.

Again. It's your game. Play it how you want. But if you actually want to gain stuff in the game faster, then don't split your exp up. If you don't care how fast you gain your next level/AA, then by all means split it any way you want.

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#30 Jul 06 2005 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good

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Quote:

Never say never. In terms of absolute max/min efficiency for character power per given amount of experience earned, go 100/0 or 0/100. However, if you get burnt out (and don't log on for a day or 2 or more) by going 100 percent regular xp and the bar moving slowly or going 100 percent aaxp and not making progress towards the next level, a split would be better in terms of character power per RL time.

Now, let's say it takes 2 hours per AA at level 64 in BoT or something. And it takes 20 hours per level in BoT. (maybe more, not sure)

If I play only 2 hour per night and go 100% AA, I get an AA every night. If I got 100% level, I get an level at the 10th night.

If I go 90% level 10% AA, I don't get the level nor an AA until the 12th night.

So, for 2 extra nights, I'll go /ooc level 64 lfg, instead of /ooc level 65 lfg. If I am a tank, there is a difference on tanking ability. If I am a caster, it maybe a lot of difference due to new spells.

#31 Jul 06 2005 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good

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Quote:

think you have to find a balance between levels and AAs. If you level too fast you'll find yourself out matched by others of equal level with more AAs very quickly and you won't be able to perform as expected for your class and level.

...

Many would say pause at 51 for Regen3 and Run3 - I'd add Metabolism3 to that as well (let's face it ya need to save those misty thicket picnics). And there's nothing cooler than having your first Title! Get 6-9 AAs here.

Then push on to 55 for PoV access - and some of the best xp pickup groups in the game. Here pause a bit longer and pick up those abilities unique to your class. Defensive AAs for tanks, Healing AAs for healers, and Mana saving AAs for casters. The 50s suck so chose a truly frivolous AA that you can live without to make it more fun to be in your 50s - Holy Steed, MGB, Mneumontic Retention. Get another 12-20 AAs here.

...

Then move on to 65 - balance out your character again. By now you should be nearing 100 AAs and probably don't have many OMG critical AAs left to get. When you're ready move on and pause every few levels to balance out again. There's no rush to get to 70 and going too fast may cause you to burn out and miss some of the lower level zones. After all it's much more fun to hunt the zone when it gives 2-3% xp for each kill than later at 1%.

Agree on some, but not all. First of all, nobody would want a level 55 tank in PoV. I would suggest getting run3 and push to 62+ regardless class. It takes something like 4 hours per AA in PoN etc. It is cut to half in an efficient killing group in PoV inner cave group (when there is no kiting group to split mobs). However, nobody would want a level 55 in PoV, a cleric maybe, but no other class can be effective in PoV at that level.

A level 65 tank with average gear with zero defense AA can still tank PoV np, while a 55 will have a lot of trouble regardless gear and AA.

Also, one thing not many people realize is, at 65, exp is faster in PoV than in BoT. When I get an efficient group in PoV inner cave (again, when there is no kiting at OC), I get an AA every 1.25 hours, while in BoT it's close to 1.75. There is virtually no loot in PoV thought, except sleepwalker.

#32 Jul 06 2005 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent

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Tanks are fine holding off AAs untill around level 65, but after that he'll need to get at least 3/3 in two of the defensive AAs on the archtype window. It's a bummer, but a tank NEEDS them for 65+ content.

#33 Jul 06 2005 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent

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Quote:

a cleric maybe, but no other class can be effective in PoV at that level.

Druid fared well at 55, in kite groups and in tanking groups. The xp is decent at that level. Almost none of my magic-based DoTs were resisted. Had some problems with fire-based stuff, but I would have to say I was a decent enough contributor to DPS and spot heals.

#34 Jul 06 2005 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent

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Wizards, mages, necros, druids and rangers are always wanted in PoV at any lvl. I went from 55-60 in PoV never had a problem finding a group

#35 Jul 06 2005 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good

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elorianBLAH you are talking about kiting group right?

Dothammer, I have a 40ish druid myself, and 2 box a friend's 65 druid often but i don't know about mid-high 50's druid spells. Not sure if DoT is good dps at that level.

maybe not many people exp in PoV anymore other than kiting. so now groups are not as selective on classes and lvl. don't know.

#36 Jul 06 2005 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent

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My necro has been in PoV quote a lot at 56. Smiley: smile

As for AAs I've taken roughly the same approach for both of my chars that have them. I started getting AAs one at a time on occasion through the 50s, to get the first 6 done (Runspeed and Metabolism generally) then once past 60 start working on groups of AAs to start the next tier of abilities. My cleric has a few done, like mental clarity, spellcasting mastery, healing adept and healing gift. My necro is going to be going for SCM, Channeling focus, natural durability and perhaps SCF.

I do have a tendency to restrict my progress, though, since I enjoy the older/middle game content, and grinding out AAs in the 50s is a great way to do it.

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#37 Jul 06 2005 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent

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Assailant wrote:

[quote] I get an AA every 1.25 hours, while in BoT it's close to 1.75.

I've never sat and done the math, but this is pretty interesting. Being in a small guild I spend most of my time in PoV but always try to get into BoT groups whenever I can. Maybe I need to rethink that.

As for levels - the only classes I've seen struggle with a PoV group are chanters and tanks. Chanters are basically only good for slow and haste. Tanks don't seem to be able to hold their own until levels 58-60 unless they're heavily twinked and have a good healer to back them up.

I started tanking at 56 with Regen3 and Combat Agility 1 on my AA list but even then I had to have a killer healer and a solid group to pull it off. Prolly helped that I'm a pally - since I was constantly dropping HoT on myself while tanking. Come to think of it, I prolly wouldn't have even gotten an invite if it weren't for the server numbers tapering off.

But for support classes PoV is the place to be. I've never turned down a ranger or necro - and I've even 85ed a few in just to fill our guild groups.

#38 Jul 06 2005 at 10:05 PM Rating: Good

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Netos wrote:

Assailant wrote:

[quote] I get an AA every 1.25 hours, while in BoT it's close to 1.75.

I've never sat and done the math, but this is pretty interesting. Being in a small guild I spend most of my time in PoV but always try to get into BoT groups whenever I can. Maybe I need to rethink that.

It largely because of the specifics of the mob levels in those two zones though. Remember, that the level difference between mobs in PoV and those in BoT isn't that significant in terms of *total* levels, but it is in terms of relative difficulty. Everything in EQ is calculated on curves. The closest points of the curve occur when things are near eachother. So if you are level 65, then a small difference in level between two mobs *near* your level will make a huge difference in your ability to fight them. So a level 62 mob will be significantly easier to kill then a level 64 mob. On the other side of the equation, a level 30 mob wont be significantly easier to kill then a level 40 mob (both are far enough below you to be pretty similar in difficulty).

The exp gained from killing a level 62 mob isn't significantly lower then that of killing a level 64 mob though. So you get more bang for the buck killing mobs in PoV then in BoT. Also, since both sets of mobs are within 5 levels, you get the level bonus from both. The only issue is that you have to kill more mobs in PoV to get the same (or faster) kill rate. I've been in groups in PoV where our kill rate was such that we were killing them faster then the mobs near us could respawn. When that happens, you'll gain exp faster moving to a higher level zone.

The observation that BoT was better exp then PoV was made back when both zones were pretty much perma-camped. So you were lucky to get half the cave spawns (hence why inner and outer are still considered separate camps today). Today, I'd tend to agree that killing in PoV is generally better for exp rate for a group in their mid 60s assuming you've got enough mobs to keep you perma occupied. High 60s is different, but then why not move to an OOW zone instead? The big draw for BoT was that you could get higher level parchments and ornate drops. The exp rate was a secondary issue IMO, but given the camped nature of PoV back then, most groups would actually get better exp in BoT then in Pov.

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#39 Jul 07 2005 at 3:55 AM Rating: Decent

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gbaji wrote:

A split is *never* better in terms of character power in RL time. Never. Ever. This is one time you really can say never, because it's actually never better.

KK .. time to make this mathmatical. Notice I did say unit of 'RL time' and not '/played time' - if the difference isn't clear ...

1 - 100pct x 6/7 (aka one night/week not logging on) = 85.7 pct
2 - 90pct x 7/7 = 90.00 pct

Edited, Thu Jul 7 04:55:38 2005 by Brewnoe

#40 Jul 07 2005 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent

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[quote]Now, let's say it takes 2 hours per AA at level 64 in BoT or something. And it takes 20 hours per level in BoT. (maybe more, not sure)

If I play only 2 hour per night and go 100% AA, I get an AA every night. If I got 100% level, I get an level at the 10th night.

If I go 90% level 10% AA, I don't get the level nor an AA until the 12th night.

So, for 2 extra nights, I'll go /ooc level 64 lfg, instead of /ooc level 65 lfg. If I am a tank, there is a difference on tanking ability. If I am a caster, it maybe a lot of difference due to new spells.[quote]

This is better in RL terms how??
100% either/or is better than the split......
Does anyone recall if the math problem that EQ had with split has been resolved as well (where xp was lost if you split between the two?)

#41 Jul 07 2005 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent

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Not sure if DoT is good dps at that level.

Speaking about a 55+ Druid in PoV...

I can drop 3 DoTs for close to 300pts per tick. If I have pet add 20-30pts per tick to that. I can spot heal 1Kpts quickly and now at level 58 I can (10 sec cast) a 3K heal.

I can also kite adds away and succor if need be.

I would say that is a good enough contribution. Helps to have KEI of course.

#42 Jul 08 2005 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent

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Actually, going 90/10 can be more efficent in character power over 100%.

Lets take 2 characters both about 5% from dinging 66. Both toons are identical in everyway. Character A goes 100% normal level xp, Character B goes 90% level/ 10% aa. Both hunt the exact same things.

Eventually Character A dings level 70. Where is Character B? They will be about 50% into 69. Note that the power differnce between 69 and 70 is NOT that great. Character B, however, will have earned about 6 or 7 AAs that will most likely make up the difference and then some that character A has by being level 70. Note, this isnt perfect, as progression status can come into play. Also, Character A will probably have an easier time finding groups in difficult areas being level 70.

#43 Jul 08 2005 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent

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When you go 100% you would switch between 100% AA and 100% XP. Person B would level up some, then AA some, then level up some. And it will be quicker to gain that extra level because they have more AAs or vise versa. Person B would achieve the same number of levels and AAs as person A in less time.

Edited, Fri Jul 8 22:37:23 2005 by SuiG

#44 Jul 11 2005 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good

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Quote:

Actually, going 90/10 can be more efficent in character power over 100%.

Lets take 2 characters both about 5% from dinging 66. Both toons are identical in everyway. Character A goes 100% normal level xp, Character B goes 90% level/ 10% aa. Both hunt the exact same things.

Eventually Character A dings level 70. Where is Character B? They will be about 50% into 69. Note that the power differnce between 69 and 70 is NOT that great. Character B, however, will have earned about 6 or 7 AAs that will most likely make up the difference and then some that character A has by being level 70. Note, this isnt perfect, as progression status can come into play. Also, Character A will probably have an easier time finding groups in difficult areas being level 70.

new spells, more hp, more mana, more ac, more attk at level 70 than at 69. or if character A goes 100% AA, he would have gotten, what, 60 - 70 AAs at the same time that person B got 6 - 7?

#45 Jul 11 2005 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent

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[quote more hp, more mana, more ac, more attk at level 70 than at 69.[/quote]
Not by a significant amount. The differnece in these stats between 69 and 70 is small.

As far as the new spells, the advantage there assumes you can get the runes, whicih is not that easy. Ive been 70 for two months now and have yet to get a 69 or 70 rune despite my best efforts.

#46 Jul 11 2005 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good

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Just speaking in general.

#47 Jul 11 2005 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good

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dfrnchman wrote:

Quote:

more hp, more mana, more ac, more attk at level 70 than at 69.

Not by a significant amount. The differnece in these stats between 69 and 70 is small.

As far as the new spells, the advantage there assumes you can get the runes, whicih is not that easy. Ive been 70 for two months now and have yet to get a 69 or 70 rune despite my best efforts.

Your argument is still wrong. It makes no difference where you start and where you finish at every point along the way, you will have at worst the same and most of the time *more* AAs and/or levels if you don't split then if you do.

Your problem is that you're looking at a straight long term goal and looking at the results and declaring them equivalent. Actually, your not doing that either. You're ending them at two different points, so it's impossible to compare them.

The guy who does nothing but 100% level, will gain each and every level earlier then the guy who splits 90/10. Your mistake is extending that so that he's halfway through level 70 when the other guys hits level 70, but has a bunch of AA points under his belt as well. That's incorrect. Assume it works this way:

We're going to ignore level differences since I don't want to turn this into an equation-a-thon. Let's just assume that 9AA==1 level for going from level 65 to level 70. I'm just grabbing that number cause it makes the math easy. Let's also call the time/exp needed to gain one level "X". So one level == 1X. One AA == 1/9X.

You've got two guys. One goes 100% at everything he does. The other does 90/10 split the whole time. They both start at level 65.

Over time, here's what happens to each:

Guy A (90/10 split):

After X time, he's 9/10ths of the way to gaining level 66. He's also 9/10ths of the way into his first AA point.

At X+1/9X, he dings level 66 and 1 AA.

At 2X+1/9X (+1X time from dings), he's 9/10ths of the way to gaining level 67. He's also 9/10s of the way into his second AA point.

At 2x+2/9X, he dings level 67 and 2 AA.

At 3x+2/9X (+1X time from dings), he's 9/10ths of the way to gaining level 68. He's also 9/10ths of the way into his third AA point.

At 3x+3/9X, he dings level 68 and 3 AA.

At 4x+3/9X (+1X time from dings), he's 9/10ths of the way to gaining level 69. He's also 9/10ths of the way into his fourth AA point.

At 4x+4/9X, he dings level 69 and 4 AA.

At 5X+4/9X (+1X time from dings), he's 9/10ths of the way to gaining level 70. He's also 9/10th of the way into his fifth AA point.

At 5X+5/9X, he finally dings level 70 and 5 AA.

Guy B (100% to either level or AA).

At 1X, he ding's level 66. He switches to AA.

At 1X+1/9X, he dings his first AA point. Switches to leveling.

At 2X+1/9X, he dings level 67. Switches to AA.

At 2X+2/9X, he dings his second AA point. Switches to leveling.

At 3X+2/9X, he dings level 68. Switches to AA.

At 3X+3/9X, he dings his third AA point. Switches to leveling

At 4X+3/9X, he dings level 69. Switches to AA.

At 4X+4/9X, he dings his fourth AA point. Switches to leveling

At 5X+4/9x, he dings level 70. Switches to AA.

At 5X+5/9X, he dings his fifth AA point.

Compare those two lists. You'll find that at no time is Guy B *ever* behind Guy A in either levels or AA points. However, Guy B gains each level 11% (1/9X) earlier then Guy A every single time. That means that 11% of the time, he'll have a level advantage on Guy A.

The math *always* works that way. It does not matter how you split it up. It doesn't matter what levels we're talking about. The math is absolutely solid. You will *always* make your next AA or level take longer if you split them up, and you gain *nothing* in return.

I just don't see how many different ways I can say the same thing. It's as mathmatically provable as 1<2. If you want to argue that you prefer splitting exp for some social reason (like you don't want to have to bother with switching exp percentages around) that's fine. I can accept that. But there is absolutely no argument to support the notion that you'll actually level or AA faster by splitting. It's a complete and absolute falsehood. You will *never* gain levels or AA faster by splitting. Ever.

Edited, Mon Jul 11 18:41:41 2005 by gbaji

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#48 Jul 11 2005 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good

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Brewnoe wrote:

gbaji wrote:

A split is *never* better in terms of character power in RL time. Never. Ever. This is one time you really can say never, because it's actually never better.

KK .. time to make this mathmatical. Notice I did say unit of 'RL time' and not '/played time' - if the difference isn't clear ...

1 - 100pct x 6/7 (aka one night/week not logging on) = 85.7 pct
2 - 90pct x 7/7 = 90.00 pct

I really have no clue what the heck you are trying to argue here. You're adding an absolutely irrelevant and extrenous point.

Yeah. A guy who plays 7 days a week instead of 6 will level/aa faster. What the heck does that have to do with the split?

Nothing. We're not talking about how many days you play a week. We have to assume that how many hours you play is static, and we're looking at how to best utilize that time. I'm frankly confused how you even thought this could be relevant...

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