who is wrongFollow

what would u do ?

group 1
clearing to a name - which i am told is a static mob - not a regular camp mob - when group 2 zones in with the intent of killing the same mob -

remember =
neither grp has pulled the name -
grp 1 was there first clearing trash to get to it
grp 2 zoned in to kill the same mob
mob is not a camp where there is a ph u keep killing
till a name spawns - but a name that spawns on a timer

now do u feel that grp 1 should be able to kill the mob
or that grp 2 should - or that whoever can pull it first ?

any opinions ?

of course group 1 should get it. if group 2 bypasses group 1 to get to it, the are just wrong and don't understand the concept of the game. thats as bad as kill stealing (which conceptually thats what it is).

This is true. I based my above opinion on the information given. I just assumed that group 1 was capable of killing the boss mob. But we all know what happens when we assume... :)

If as asked before group 1 was capable of handling the mob then they should get it.

Theres a pretty simple way to avoid issues like this. Send an advanced scout to the zone and have them call a "Camp Check" before you have gotten your group/raid together and end up wasting alot of peoples time.

What I'm wondering is which group was the OP in?

Name the mob please.

I would be pissed if it took my group an hour or more to clear to Naggy and some group waltzes in while you are buffing up for main event. (I doubt that was the mob.)

If your group is on the way to kill a named and you see another group milling about in the same area, common courtesy is to ask what they are doing. Technically it is not 'kill stealing' if the mob is not engaged, but it is pretty slimy to do that when there is a group there ready or not.

Group one should be afforded a reasonable time to prepare, but if you were not ready to go in say less than 10 minutes (arbitrary, my opinion), you are stretching it.

a common example of this, where I wouldn't be too upset at group2 taking the mob - oreen wavecrasher.

you -can- invis to oreen, but for some reason, many people want to clear.

I wouldn't jump ahead if I saw a group clearing (well, unless I didn't like them =p) but given that there are two or three ways to walk to oreen, its very easy to miss a group.

some 6 box farmer doesn't think so. they invis to the named and if it's not engraged, they'll kill it for loot to sell on eBay.

I used to have a big problem with those farmers. Every time a named spawn in BoT it was a race.

Well group 2 should have called a camp check when they zoned in, at which point you announce such and such mob. They should have then hung out, and if you did not make it to your camp in a reasonable amount of time then they should have challenged your so called camp.

Unfortuantly, a reasonable amount of time is a relative term, but if you don't have control of your camp in half an hour or so I'm gonna start to wonder exactly what your doing there. Some people would argue SOEs rules of first to engage the mob and that might be a valid argument too depending on the situation. Since your referring to groups and not a raid force then you should not have much time spent buffing up and waiting for group members. A group should really be clearing minimal trash mobs to get to a camp. You should be invising past what you can to get to your camp, and then spend time pulling to there.

Now, I was in a situation somewhat similar to this awhile back. A guild hired me to come along on their Chardok raid and open the doors for them. The raid force zoned in, did a camp check and began clearing their way to the king.

This can be a tedious process and it took a good 30-60 minutes to make it all the way down there. When we finally got to the room outside the kings we found a small group of 70s had already engaged him.

How they got past us I do not know, how they didn't notice the path we were clearing to the king, why they did not check to see why an entire guild (3 groups at least) was in the zone or call a camp check I do not know either, however, they did first damage and in SOEs eyes were totally in their right to take the mob. An entire guild's evening, plus what they paid me was wasted.

Ok. Your second explanation included a lot of facts you completely left out of the first one.

So what happened is that group1 attempted to kill the named and failed? Then they were rezzing/rebuffing for a second attempt and a needed class went LD? They were waiting around for some indeterminant time when Group2 went ahead, pulled the mob and killed it.

Is that more or less correct?

A couple points. You say that group2 should have given group1 the five minutes or so it would have taken them to reclear and re-attempt the mob, right? Ok. But how long had group1 already been trying? How much time did they spend on their first attempt? How long rezzing? How long reclearing?

That's the part that's still missing. I'm reasonably sure that a random group of people sufficiently powerful to take the mob just happened to zone in. Do you know for a fact that they hadn't already scouted the mob? They could have been prepping and waiting for a couple hours for group1 to either succeed or fail. Just because you weren't aware of it does not mean that group2 didn't know group1 was making an attempt on the mob, allowed group1 to make their attempt while assembling their own force, and then when group1 failed, felt it was completely within their rights to make their own attempt.


In that case, it's usually "fair" for the second group to take a shot. At the very least, they are under no obligation to let you take a second attempt while they continue to wait around. It's very situational, but while most raid groups will politely give whoever's there first the "first shot" at a mob, if you fail, it's now their turn, right?

It's easy to claim a mob. Just zone in and say you're working on clearing to the mob. Most players will respect that if you have sufficient numbers and are actively working towards killing the mob. Some people might even stand by and let you try a second time. Most wont though. You took your shot and failed, so now it's their turn.

First off, please use complete sentences. It's just easier on everyone else...



That's not necessarily true though. The LD and wipe occured "before group2 arrived in force". You don't know if they sent a scout into the zone prior to showing up, were aware that group1 was making an attempt on the mob, and then when group1 failed, zoned their fully prepped raid force and took out the mob.

Also. How is group2 to know *why* you wiped? They only know that group1 failed. Why they failed is unimportant.



Here's my problem with this. You've got the right parts, but you haven't made the connection between them.

What are the odds that a fully buffed and formed raid group, would just happen to zone into the zone in the short amount of time between your first wipe and your second attempt? Don't you think that's maybe a tiny bit unlikely? That's your first hint that these guys didn't randomly show up.

Let me explain to you how many raids work when dealing with "oppportunity targets". You send out scouts to find out what mobs are up. You then send your raid force around to the various zones and take out the mobs. If your scout reports that a mob is up, but there's another raid force in the zone, you put that target on the backburner. If 15 minutes later, your scout reports that the other people wiped, you might just decide to zone in and take out the mob.

I can almost guarantee you that the timing was not accidentaly. You may only have become aware of group2 when they zoned in in force, but it's almost certain that they knew about group1 the entire time. They'd been watching group1s progress, and when group1 wiped, they felt they had the right to the next attempt on the mob. The fact that they were able to zone in, travel to the mob, and take it out while you guys were still clearing after recovering from the first wipe tells us that they didn't just arrive in the zone and then decide to kill the mob. They already knew it was up. They arrived already buffed and ready to kill the mob. This means that for them, this wasn't something that happened in 5 minutes. They'd already prepped for the raid and were waiting to see if you succeeded or failed. If you'd succeeded in your raid, it's likely you never would have known they were watching. They would have simply ported off to another zone to take out a different target.

You're ignoring the fact that there are different perceptions of an event. You only saw their entire raid group appear and zip past you. But they likely had been waiting patiently for quite some time to see if you succeeded or failed. When you failed, they spent a few minutes getting to the zone, and then took out the mob. Done deal.


I don't see anything done wrong by them. I would have communicated to group1 first though. I would have had my scout ask group1 what they were hunting to verify they were after the same target. I'd have had him explain that we're after the same target, but that we'll give group1 the "first shot" at him, but if they fail, we're going to take a shot ourselves. That would have probably been a more polite way to do it. However, the actions themselves are not necessarily "bad", and certainly do not violate any rules, whether official SOE policy, or even informal player rules on camps. It's generally accepted that if you fail in an attempt at a mob, another raid force can take a shot at the mob themselves. Otherwise, you're unfairly forcing people who can take out the mob to sit around and wait for hours and hours until you finally decide that you can't take out the mob before they get a shot. That's pretty bogus. I've been on the recieving end of that many times. There's nothing that sucks more then agreeing to let another guild attempt a mob, so you go off to hit some secondary targets, and over the next 4 or 5 hours you check in with that other guild and they're "still trying", only to have them give up in failure after your own raiders have packed it in for the day.

I've lost way too many shots at mobs due to that to have a lot of respect for the practice. IMO, if you fail to kill a mob, the next raid group gets to take a shot. Done deal.



Again. How close group1 was to clearing to the named is irrelevant. What matters is that group1 failed in their first attempt at the mob. Group2 felt that this entitled them to make an attempt at the mob. At that point, what group1 was doing is totally irrelevant. They can clear trash mobs in the area if they want. That's their choice. But group2 can engage the mob as they wish. Group1 failed on their attempt. That's all that matters...

I honestly cannot see any situation in which it is ok for group 2 to take the mob if you have been doing the work for it. The argument that you may not be ready is ludicrous. Of course you wont be ready, you've been clearing mobs for half an hour, you will need to med/rebuff after all of that, while group 2 has been sitting around doing exactly that while you were clearing mobs.

I would say that the second group if they had to pass you to get to the mob was wrong. As Groogle pointed out in cases where your group could not be actually seen then I couldnt blame them. Unless the zone has only one named in it then you could have been on any target.

I personally have found that if you do a camp check sometimes a group will abandon their current camp in favor of a better one being open. I usually go scout to see if camp is clear and move in and save camp checks for when people ask me what I am camping.
Of course if you are there I and most people will move on and respect your camp.

Another question I would have is are there any other possible targets that you could have been clearing towards. In some circumstances several different names can be the "goal" and you have to kill the same trash to get to them but then turn a different way or move past it. This would not excuse them for not asking you what you were after if they saw you though.

As to where Gbaji is coming from he seems to have lumped a few posts together and come up with his own interpretation again. The OP didnt say it was a raid encounter he said it was a group encounter. Some other posters brought up raids as examples. After your diatribe he then did say that that monster could be a raid mob to lower levels but not to higher levels and that he and they other group were treating it as a group encounter. A good example of this would be say Trakanon totally not unheard of in fact commmonplace for him to be soloed anymore however for a raid of 50-60 non uber twinks he would be a challenging raid monster.

jsdeasy wrote:
Excatly, this is how it should be /bow