who is wrongFollow

mshas in qvic

grp 1 killed one and another small raid force killed 2nd one
and then they left - facts not really needed - as long before
grg 2 came

grp 1 then waited cuz leader knew the 3rd mshas was due to
spawn - same before grp 2

we moved near a temple which i am told is a common but not
only spot to pull mnat - last mshas -

then like i said we had cleared trash - pulled mnat - had
him to about 35life when our sham went ld - we wiped - cr
buffed and began to clear again - we had killed i think
about 4 or 5 trash with about that many left when i saw
mnat being pulled by grp 2 - i didnt even know they where
there till then - i am the tank so i dont get to see all that
goes on lol

reason didnt tell where is it shouldnt matter - whatever
grp is first involved in an indever(sorry for the bad spelling) should be respected
dont u think ?

hopefully if respect is shown then if first grp cant meet the
challenge then they will say - hey they gave us our chance
time to let them

"then like i said we had cleared trash - pulled mnat - had
him to about 35life when our sham went ld - we wiped - cr
buffed and began to clear again - we had killed i think
about 4 or 5 trash with about that many left when i saw
mnat being pulled by grp 2 - i didnt even know they where
there till then - i am the tank so i dont get to see all that
goes on lol"

So you wiped and had to do CRs, which was why you had the 4 or 5 trash MOBs back? Were you your group\raid leader? How do you know there was no communication? (Directed tells happen all the time, without the rest of the group/raid knowing.) How do you know that the other group did not come into zone, see you wipe and then pulled named while you were still being rezed.. at least, if you were the tank, most likely you were one of the corpses, I would guess? So you would have no idea what happened in ooc while you were waiting on your rez?

Additionally, you only had the shammy as slower? If you didnt have a backup, and were waiting on him, how long were you gonna say you were holding the camp? Til he got power back 16 hours later? Til he paid his cable bill, which was 3 months past due and finally cut off? Sounds to me like you went in poorly prepared, so why be surprised you lost the MOB..

Sorry dude, I usually play nice, but if the group in front of me wipes and has to take time to rez and rebuff, then it is time for me to engage. They can wait until they are ready and try if I fail. Their deaths, and corpse run, means that their camp ended in failure. If they had continued on and engaged the mob, rezing their fallen commerades back to health, rebuffing on the fly, preventing repops, holding the path to the main, then it would have been another matter, but you said you stopped, did rezes and rebuffed. (We did this in a raid on this silly dragon in the cauldron. You die, you run back reallly fast unless you get a rez, and then you fight with what buffs you can get. 2 deaths for me, a druid caster, on that one, did rezes after the dragon was dead. No stops for rezes, no group rebuffs, just fight as best you can.)All of that took time enough for you to have repops.. which you then had to reclear. I would have figured you were going to rewipe, as rez buffs are rarely as good as you start raid with, so why waste my time waiting for you to wipe again?

Contrasts with:



which is clearly answered with:



Quick logic question for you......why would the trash clearing with the intent to re-engage be taking place? If OP wasn't raid leader, do you not think RL might have said something to the rest of the raid if it was to be called off? Do you think he might have said something to rest of raid when grp2 pull the named??

I also suggest you re-read the thread. Especially my previous posts, and gbaji's, where we agree that if wipe had happened, then grp 2 zone in as the cr's etc happen, there MIGHT be an argument over whose pull it is.

In this instance, grp1 were working towards the mob in question with an obvious and identifiable aim. Communication might have taken place that OP is not aware of, but logic dictates that the whole grp were not happy over occurrence and he sought guidance over what happened.

Taken the facts as represented. If different, then obviously they have to considered properly. Grp 1's camp. Grp 2 no rights to named at that time.

Bah, people necro three month old threads all the time. This one's only been up for five days.

Honestly, I'm enjoying the conversation. My pally is a little low for the topic, having only participated in one raid in his young life. But, by this time next year, hopefully I'll be taking on these kind of targets regularly.

There's no time like the present to learn proper etiquette.

Please. Continue the discussion.

*cough* You missed one...

Which is clearly contradicted by:




If he didn't know they were there until group2 pulled the mob, then how on earth could he have known if they were in the zone before or after they buffed and started clearing?

Short answer. He didn't. He said that anyway because it makes his case seem stronger, but by his own statement, he didn't actually know when they zoned in.

Likely actual occurance number 1. Group2 approached from a different direction, had no clue group1 was there and had wiped and was reclearing. They simply saw the mob up on track and moved in and killed it.

Likely actual occurance number 2: Group2 was in the zone and waiting to see if group1 would kill the mob. Group1 wiped. Group2 approached from a different direction in order to avoid dealing with potential training during group1's CR. At this point, the mob is "open" to anyone. Group2 got to the mob first. They get the kill.


I'm still not seeing anything "wrong" done by group2. Group1 already got one of the spawns, another group got another one. Clearly, you don't get to just call them all or something. Group1 had no more rights to the third one then anyone else. When they wiped, they lost the "first in force" rights IMO. Clearly, group2 was able to get to the mob and take it out, not just a little faster, but a lot faster. IMO, that means they were "first in force". Since he didn't see them until they engaged, he can't know how long they cleared from a different side or how long they were there period.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to claim a mob like that because you are clearing towards it. You claim it by getting to it and pulling it. Maybe this other group knew a better spot to pull to. Maybe they were just able to clear quicker. I don't know. Honestly, it doesn't matter that much. If neither group had engaged yet, it would be up to the first to pull in that situation anyway. The fact that group1 already attempted and failed in no way entitles them to "own" the mob for another attempt.

I have found this thread to be very informative. For what it's worth, I have never been on a raid and probably never will be - one of those casual player types that allways plays with the same group.

It's in some ways a little sad that this discussion even has to take place. I remember when I started playing that the player population in relation to the number of zones and "camps" available was so large that camps were shared. The best example I can come up with is the 2 bird houses at the entrance to the zone-in to The Arena off of Rath Lake. One group would take the right bird and the other would take the left bird. Everyone respected the other's territory and waited to pull thier bird untill the frist group was finised with thier pull.

In some ways, the game is much better now-there is much less waiting to find a spot to hunt in. I can also remember waiting for hours to get a spire in SK, but we also had fun pulling wandering birds \, stc and chatting with each other while we waited.

I can see both sides of the argument from wherre I sit. Yes, I think group 1 probably had the right to asssume that they should have the mob. Fairly recently, our group was camping the King in Droga and had been pulling the PH for about 90 minutes, I saw on my track that he had popped and continued to pull the mobs at the entrance when a group of 2 high level (red to my 65) ran in invised and went straight for the king and took him out, looted the hammer and left. I sent tell to one of them complaing about KSing and everything that came back was filtered by my "bad word filter"

The point I make is that as the game has grown and "progressed" the number of jerks that play has grown proportionately. I think they have allways been around, there were just fewer of them because there were fewer of "us". Now that the older servers have a top heavy number of higher level players - I play on the Rathe - the jerks are getting concentrated in the more lucrative zones. Sad, but true.

However, it IS a game, my comment therefore is; Group 2 was wrong, they don't care what you think, they function on a "me first" mentality and nothing is going to change thier play style. But I want to think that they are in the minority - I still see every, night that I play, random act of generosity and helpfullnesss.

Some time ago, right before they nerfed the bards AoE songs, our group was camping the campfire in Nadox when a Bard pulled the Broodmother and most of the zone into the area around the campfire. My first reaction was - damit, there goes our camp. Then I was fascinated that this guy was able to kite close to 50 mobs and stay alive. I took my ranger a little too close and a couple of them peeled off and mde short work of him. My wife rezzed me and I thought nothing of it. After the Broodmother was dead, the bard sent me a tell that he was sorry and wanted me to have the hammer that drops from that bard. It certainly wasn't his fault that I died ( as an aside - he did annouce that he would be pulling the Broodmother). I still have that weapon on my Ranger and love it.

I guess my main point here is that there are those of us who have been playing the game since it's inception. WE probably have developed a play-style that reflects what the world was like and what wsa necessary when we started the game. Definitely a more polite and friendly atmosphere in my opinion.

But the game has changed, in some ways for the better and in some ways, not for the better. However, I continue to play and have fun allmost every night. My motto has allways been "Have fun and be safe", and if you can't be safe, pick up and go at it again.

My guild recently headed to Chardok in hopes of spawning the betrayer. While we were en-route from the Guild Hall to the PoK for the port (didn't have any druids on at the time,) an ooc was called for an open raid in Chardok.

Uhm...

/tell XXX just curious, are you planning on taking out the betrayer? My guild is already on their way there, with a scout in place, and he is currently camped right on him.

/XXX tells you "no, Im looking for some backup for the overlord. Care to join forces, first your guild, then mine?"

Sometimes things work in your favor. I can't wait to see what happens when we head to Hate.

I was referring to bypassing FV by porting straight to DL. Wasn't a big deal, the run from FV to DL isn't horrid, but just as an additional time saver, and buff keeper.

The problem I'm having is that the entire argument relies completely on this being an absolutely factually correct statement:



But the OP's statement was that he didn't even know group2 was in the zone until group2 *pulled* the target mob.

Now, unless the universe has gone blinky on me, presumably group2 had to in some manner travel from the zonein to where ever the mob was. That took some amount of time. Maybe they were able to bypass the pulling and clearing that group1 was doing. Maybe they pulled and cleared from another direction. I wasn't there, and I can't say what happened. However, since the OP was totally unaware of their presence until they actually pulled the mob, he can't say either.

That, ultimately, is the point here. You mentioned a double standard, but that applies in both directions. Clearly, group2 traveled from the zoneine to the mob and pulled it *before* group1 was able to rez up, rebuff, and travel to the mob to pull it. How they did that is completely irrelevant. They had to overcome the *exact* same obstacles that were between group1 and the mob. They got their first. Now, we can assume that group1 has some sort of uber magical power that allows them to bypass content unfairly, but that seems unlikely. That leaves us with the *fact* that they were able to get from the ZI (or wherever they started from) to the mob first. Not only that, but they did so in a way that the members of group1 didn't even know they were there. Now maybe they just invised past group1 or something, but I'm betting they took an alternate route to the mob (no one in group1 noticed another group running past them? Unlikely...). If that's the case, then the OP has absolutely no clue how many mobs they cleared getting there. He has no way of knowing how long it took them to get there. He simply doesn't know, but he's assuming that since his group tried once and failed, that they should get an infinite number of attempts on the mob.


My point is that the OP is claiming that they'd rezed/rebuffed completely and were "obviously" clearing to the mob when group2 swooped in and took it. But he's assuming that. How does he know that group2 didn't start clearing towards the mob from a different direction while they were still rezzing? Maybe while they were still rebuffing? He's placing a huge stock on the fact that they started clearing towards the mob first. Personally, I don't agree with that as a criteria for claiming a mob. If they were in the same room as the mob and were clearing mobs from around it before group2 showed up, I'd agree with him. But if they are clearing *to* the mob, that's not the same thing. Additionally, the OP has no clue whether or not the other group cleared from a different direction and maybe started first anyway. Clearly, they got their first, right?


Once they wiped on the mob, they lost claim to it. So what you have is two groups heading towards a mob. Unless you're arguing that failing an attempt at a non-camp mob gives you the right to the next attempt and the next and the next until you decide to give up, then the mob is "open" at that point. So you've got two groups heading towards the mob at the same time. The first to arrive at the mob and pull it gets the mob. Group2 didn't pull through group1 from what I read, so they didn't leap frog them (wait for group1 to pull all the mobs to the target, then pull the target, which is a tactic I totally disagree with!). They were able to get to the mob and successfully engage it completely on their own. To me, that earns them the right to the kill. Any other criteria starts us down a path of some pretty bizaare "rights" to camps that makes no sense.



Edited, Fri Jul 29 20:11:24 2005 by gbaji

thank you JohnDoe for looking at the facts and breaking
them down.

if anyone reading this post has been to qvic they know
that mnat can be pulled to the zone in with a bard.

we were not able to do that - so we camped an alternative
spot to pull - side of a temple

this would have been the 2nd time i have done this at the
temple and was once in a grp where a bard single pulled all
3 mshas to the zone in - with us having to kill very few
adds for all 3 -

and for those supposing that grg 2 zone in and becan pulling
from another direction - remember grp 1 was 4 to 5 mobs
into clearing to the mob - if grp 2 was even close to that
i would think both pullers would have notice each other by then

another point to consider - there are 3 mshas - both grps able
to track - grp 1 with a ranger - grp 2 with a bard - i would
bet that when grp 3 zoned in they tracked for all 3mshas - side note - doesnt track show other players - those that would say bard track isnt great - remember if he is close enough to mnat - plus grp 2 not finding all 3 up would know that someone had killed first 2 and as all 3 spawn close together due to heavily camped - makes u want to ask grp 2 questions ?

did grp 2 know grp 1 was in the zone when they zoned in ?

why didnt grp 2 find out what others were up to in the zone?

hopefully i have stated though poorly written facts as clearly
as i can -
puts him close to grp 1 -
bofore grp 1 was 4 or 5 mobs into clearing

I would still ask are there any other targets in zone. To be honest this zone is beyond me I have not been there at all and just recently got my flag to KT.

If the second group comes into zone sees what must be another high end high level group in zone then courtesy would be to ask what they are after, with this type of encounter there really is probably only one target in zone for this caliber of character.

Be honest if its a rare spawn mob, and you show up in zone you are gonna do a /who before you move in to see if its even worth your effort to move in. Your group of level 70 Time+ gear, sees another group of 70 Time+ gear in zone and knows that you are both after the same thing.

Unless the second group saw you wipe or sitting on your ***** for 10+ minutes they came into the zone knew you were there, knew what you were after and leapfrogged you plain and simple.

They moved in avoided you and saw that the mob was up and not engaged. By a strict defination of play nice they did nothing wrong. Do I believe that they bent ya over? Ya I think they did, but proving it would be an entirely different matter and some on this board will pull their very best Johnny Cocharan immitations to point out all the loopholes in your arguement and well thats really all there is to it.

Sorry man, but pooh on you for being so uber as to be able to 1 group something I would probably need a raid for =P.

The zone he is talking about is one of if not the end zone to GoD. Extremely High Level/gear/AA content to say the least. I have never been in the zone having just recently started the trails to get to the zone. There are 4 ikkanz trials and uqua trial to get to this zone. Uqua is the mother bear in this to get by with its zonewide AoE that drops all your stats. To get to this content you have to have played a long time (well or bought your toon).

The only monsters I have ever heard of anyone killing in this zone for loot/profit is the mshas(sp), or what he was after as well as the second group. I could be wrong but I what I have read leads me to believe these are the only mobs worth killing in zone and there are 3 of them. He by what I have read had killed 2 of them leaving one of them alive that they were working towards. The common practice is for one group to kill all three as it is entirely possible and I am told easy after you are flagged for the zone to do just that.

So my new contention, after doing a lil research on this zone edging in on being able to hunt there and was looking for myself) would be by knowledge of where the zone is, what it takes to get there, and what spawns are in the zone that the other group zoned in and knew that 2 out of 3 of the only mobs in zone worth killing were dead and that another group was in the zone of sufficent capacity to kill two of the monster so must be assumed to have had the capacity to kill the last one. The second group chose to ignore all common courtesy practices and kill the one that was left on track without trying to see or ask the other group what they were doing as for them to do so would destroy any defence they could muster by claiming ignorance of what they were doing. This second group by the zone itself would have had to have been high level/well geared/AA players and familiar with the practice of one group killing all three mshas yet they chose to ignore the other group and swoop in on the only loot bearing mob left in the zone and kill it. I would say that it was intentional and they knew that what they were doing was to try and outrace you to the last mob and they were successful. I would again say that unless they saw you die or sitting on your hands for 10+ minutes that it was discourteous at best and while still legal in the terms of play nice was not a practice that would be condoned by most players.