Ask/Tell: The Melee ThreadFollow

In the five years or so that I've been playing, my time has mostly been dominated by interest in casters. I started off playing a cleric, took a break from that to play a warrior (not terribly well), and then moved onto druid which has been my main for a very long time. These days though my fancy has been piqued by the various alts I've got lying around and I finally broke down and made the rogue who I've promised myself I'll always hang onto. With that territory comes a great change in the combat paradigm, however, and my experience is limited. I have thusly reacted by creating this thread where anyone can accrue knowledge in this particular field through asking about whatever piece of information eludes them, or to partake in the spirit of giving and lay down your knowledge on the table. The rules are simple: anybody can ask questions and anybody else can answer them. I'm not looking for a doctorate thesis or anything but it would be nice if there was some foundation on the information given. With that I'll start off with some of the burning questions that have begun to plague me.

Surprisingly, I've managed to play a monk to 57 without knowing a lot of these in full.

-- How does the delay of the offhand affect the actual speed of attacking in relation to dual wield? When does the chance for a dual wield actual occur and does the delay of the offhand then react to that or is it moot?

-- In relation to the primary and secondary slots, I've heard that items in the primary get a damage bonus, what then would be the most effective setup for two weapons? Is it better to have a slow, powerful weapon in the primary and a good ratio in the secondary? Naturally one would want a good ratio on both but assuming the ratio is the same does that mean that the primary weapon should always have the highest damage? How is this calculated?

-- Does haste have the exact same effect on the secondary weapon as it does on the primary speed? (This sort of connects to my first point).

-- When one has two procs on a weapon, do they work on separate timers or does it just randomly select whichever proc for the "three a minute" rule? As in, will it always proc only three times a minute or is each proc listed on a weapon three times a minute. Would that mean then that two weapons with two procs each should theoretically proc 12 times a minute?

-- Does the offhand, assuming dual wield is always successful, proc any less?

-- For rogues in particular, I've heard that one wants a high damage piercer in the primary with a good ratio weapon (usually it ends up being blunt or slashing) in the secondary. Is this merely to maintain a balance of aggro or is it the most efficient way to damage? (I know backstab only checks the primary weapon).

-- Putting aside the obvious Horn of Hsagra, what are some powerful starting weapons for a rogue? Money is not an issue.

-- Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.

That's all from me for now, I'll try to answer as many questions as I've asked and if you've got any, be it about melee skills, caps, crits, equipment, strategies, whatev. ask it and hopefully somebody can accomodate you.


Edits are generally for spelling, grammar, and clarity.

Edited, Fri Mar 31 10:25:33 2006 by Brudish

First off thanks for this thread. Second thanks for rogue info. I am enjoying the baby rogue I have started. It is a nice contrast to a pally, which is my main. Nice to have no spells to cast, dual weild, and some real dps!! Now just to learn not to tank with her!!

My questions are regarding weapons and applies to any melee I suppose. Our guild has had much discussion on this and little agreement so I am hoping someone really knows! So here I go and I refuse to feel dumb asking them, lol.

"Comparative efficiency" and "Ratio"

According to Alla, Ratio is calculated by delay/damage. ie 1: delay 24 dmg 26 is 24/26=.923 = godly. ie 2: 30/44=.681 = godly also.

My question is which is more godly? Many in guild argue this is wrong it should be dmg/delay. I don't really care, I just want to know which is best and no one seems to agree. lol

Also where does bonus dmg come into this. Both weapons in the example give a 15 bonus dmg at level 70.

Next question is what is comparative efficiency?

In the two examples I have given ie 1: is 139 and ie 2: is 171.

So we have weapon 1 with .923 ratio and 139 ce and weapon 2 with .681 ratio and 171 ce.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Seamy

Ratio can be calculated either way.

If you're using (Ratio = Delay / Damage), then a lower Ratio is superior.
If you're using (Ratio = Damage / Delay), then a higher Ratio is superior. Personally, I perfer this method, since it lends itself more easily to damage over time calculations.


As for comparative efficientcy, I'm not sure what they mean by this. Perhaps its Ratio with Procs and other modifers taken into account for damage output.

Finally, Bonus Damage is based off level for most weapons. It's 15 for melee-inclined classes at 70. However, two-handed weapons with a (Delay >= 28) will gain a higher Damage Bonus based off Damage and PlayerLevel. (DamageBonus_(Delay>=28,TwoHanded) = F(Weapon_Damage, PlayerLevel). This is why you find so many two-handed weapons with a delay of 28.. it's the ideal delay for a two-handed weapon.

Edit: Left some out of the quote. Its responded to, just not quoted.

Edited, Fri Mar 31 13:33:31 2006 by ReofblMobile

I don't have answers for Rogue-specific stuff, but (out of sequence):

1. Haste affects primary and secondary equally.

2. Secondary procs half as much as primary. Proc rates can be raised via Weapon Affinity AA (WA1-5) and Combat Effects. Otherwise, proc rates are strictly based on a fixed # of times per minute and has no dependency on whether you successfully swing or hit. Note that some weaps do have modifiers allowing the proc more times per minute - the cleric summoned hammers for example.

3. Delay of secondary has no effect on primary swings, and vice versa. Only difference for secondary chance to *swing* is that it has additional check against Dual Wield skill. Secondary chance to swing can also be raised using Ambidexterity AA.

4. When factoring ratio versus damage bonus, I've *heard* that you can use these calcs to make a relative comparison: (2*dmg+dmg bonus)/delay for primary and (2*dmg*dualwield chance)/delay, where dualwield chance = (lvl + dual wield skill)/400. I have no idea how accurate this is, but it seems to give answers that are consistent (as far as which weap in which hand) with the DPS calculator I've used for my monk. Generally this means that faster weapons are better in primary, all other things being equal (e.g., same ratios, put faster weap in primary).

5. Some classes can get an offhand damage bonus via Sinister Strikes AA.

I don't believe this is so.



Yup, you are. Of course, there are the obvious exceptions of +stats, especially Haste, +ATK, +Accuracy, and +skill% on some first handers that could affect the second hand in that regard, but then only as a piece of armor with the same stats would.

weapons with a proc in off hand, proc half as often as in the primary hand. Standard or average proc rate is around 2 per minute in primary and once per minute in secondary.

rogue in my guild, going from a 22/20 piercer to a 23/20 piercer says his backstab damage went from 983 to 1085.

And yes, evade does drop you down the aggro list. As a rogue, in a group, you should try to evade, even when you aren't getting aggro, just to make sure you don't. In a raid, with mobs quadding for 4k, you don't want any attention at all.

Yes, you are correct. Weapon Affinity and Combat effects will affect the proc rate quite a bit, also. Parses have shown that dex over 305 has no noticeable difference on proc rates.

dex doesn't effect hit.

str has minimal effect on damage, but, yes, it does raise the maximum.

really not much.

I have been told that higher dex makes weapons proc more, not sure if this is true though

Edited, Sat Apr 1 02:20:46 2006 by Maktub

yes, higher dex makes your weapons proc more. Dex over 305 has no noticable effect on proc rate. If your warrior has stun and hate procs, They will proc more often causing the monsters to stay on the tank. Melees like high dex.

really, most don't bother to do so. it just gets raised because gear with good stats has dex too. extensive parsing by the shamans has showed that dex, even pre-305, has a pretty minimal effect on proccing.

all time mods stack, even the percent ones. iirc, dot shield caps like 35.


it's a 1% chance for a mob to miss you, not for you to dodge. it's actually a pretty big difference, although I'm about to run out the door and don't have time to explain indepth why. flat dodge % mods are almost worthless.