1. Don't shut down EQ or EQII and force us to move.
2. Do "clone" all of the EQ and EQII servers onto the new game so that all of our character names and friend's character names are reserved where they sit right now. This means EQNext Povar Server will have Jonwin as Jonwin when I log in there to say hello to him. Delete characters under level 10 after the first year to open up the names that aren't actually being used.
3. #2 doesn't even have to give "veteran" or "loyalty" type rewards... but carrots are good. Loyalty rewards could be totally cosmetic (i.e., unique armor/weapon skins and a race that isn't playable but to veterans).
4. AAs not talent trees. This remains one of the few unique (and better) EQ things.
5. Abandon the pretense of serving PVP interests. They won't do it well (or at least not well enough to unseat the estblished pvper games), and it just messes up their balancing efforts and distracts from what EQ does best... group PVE content. Without PVP... class balance is rather moot (aka if they get it wrong the whole server will play rogues because they are the best).
6. Keep the raid #s down and tune the content so 12 skilled players of various class sets is > 20 or 24-man DPS mashing. This also keeps the content viable as the game matures.
7. Keep the stat inflation small... limit the stats (return to tabletop rpg roots) and go simple whenever possible (i.e., don't give the same focus effect numerous names).
8. Plan ahead so we don't have massive hiccups 14 levels from now.
9. No armor dye! But... do allow setting of skins (EQ2 has this) so there is variety in player appearance without stat sacrifice for doing so.
10. Keep within the lore, the best of the lore, and extend it. Maybe this means going into the future again...
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1. Totally agree.
2. I disagree. They shouldn't clone names (there may be a Jonwin on every EQ server and ever EQ2 server. Who gets that name?) They should, however, open up the character creater ~1 month before launch, so that people can open it up, create their toons and reserve there names. The name reservation should be something you have to do, not something that's done for you. If 2 people request the same name, then perhaps the oldest one gets preference.
3. I agree, loyalty should be cosmetic.
4. How about both? So you have the AA grind from EQ for a base set of AAs, and then the trees for maybe class specific ones, so that you can better differentiate your caracters.
5. IMO, there's no reason why they couldn't do some kind of PvP, if it's built in from the beginning. EQ2 had a natural PvP set up (Qeynos versus Freeport), but they failed to take advantage of that (WoW, on the other hand, did and it's very popular.)
6. This is something there will be a lot of dissent on. EQ has always been about the big raids. I think they should continue that. But at the same time, develop the tools that allow them to easily create 24 man raids for the same content. They should have a nice balance of smal, mid-sized and large group content, and they should make it easy to create from the beginning.
7. Don't know how players would respond to that. Would you want an expansion where you completed the whole thing and your HP went from 10000 to 11000? It obsoletes old content, but that content isn't so much used anyway.
8. 14 levels or 14 months or 14 years. One of the biggest EQ problems is that they didn't plan ahead well enough, so the first batch of AAs (Luclin ones) were hugely powerful and made the future AAs difficult. WoW, by the way, also suffers from this. They have revamped talents probably 10 times since launch.
9. The armor dye was an attempt to allow people a way to change their appearance without changing the models. In EQ2 (and of course, EQ:N) there will be many many armor sets that you can choose from (and EQ2 has appearance slots so you can wear one set and look like another.)
10. EQ:N won't be going into the future. It's a total reboot of Norrath. EQ2 is along one of EQs possible timelines (though, technically, they diverged at the time mortals entered the plane of time.) EQ:N is no where along either timeline.
With regards to the lore, this is one thing I think EQ did really well originally. There were tidbits of lore in the original game about Velious (you could find Ice of Velious in original zones), and the factions overlapped so significantly, because this guy liked that guy but didn't like the other, so if you kill some followers in some place far away, you'd take faction hits (best example I can come up with off the top of my head is that killing Crushbone orcs lowers your faction in Neriak, but there are more wide spread examples.) The intertwined nature is really interesting.
2. I disagree. They shouldn't clone names (there may be a Jonwin on every EQ server and ever EQ2 server. Who gets that name?) They should, however, open up the character creater ~1 month before launch, so that people can open it up, create their toons and reserve there names. The name reservation should be something you have to do, not something that's done for you. If 2 people request the same name, then perhaps the oldest one gets preference.
3. I agree, loyalty should be cosmetic.
4. How about both? So you have the AA grind from EQ for a base set of AAs, and then the trees for maybe class specific ones, so that you can better differentiate your caracters.
5. IMO, there's no reason why they couldn't do some kind of PvP, if it's built in from the beginning. EQ2 had a natural PvP set up (Qeynos versus Freeport), but they failed to take advantage of that (WoW, on the other hand, did and it's very popular.)
6. This is something there will be a lot of dissent on. EQ has always been about the big raids. I think they should continue that. But at the same time, develop the tools that allow them to easily create 24 man raids for the same content. They should have a nice balance of smal, mid-sized and large group content, and they should make it easy to create from the beginning.
7. Don't know how players would respond to that. Would you want an expansion where you completed the whole thing and your HP went from 10000 to 11000? It obsoletes old content, but that content isn't so much used anyway.
8. 14 levels or 14 months or 14 years. One of the biggest EQ problems is that they didn't plan ahead well enough, so the first batch of AAs (Luclin ones) were hugely powerful and made the future AAs difficult. WoW, by the way, also suffers from this. They have revamped talents probably 10 times since launch.
9. The armor dye was an attempt to allow people a way to change their appearance without changing the models. In EQ2 (and of course, EQ:N) there will be many many armor sets that you can choose from (and EQ2 has appearance slots so you can wear one set and look like another.)
10. EQ:N won't be going into the future. It's a total reboot of Norrath. EQ2 is along one of EQs possible timelines (though, technically, they diverged at the time mortals entered the plane of time.) EQ:N is no where along either timeline.
With regards to the lore, this is one thing I think EQ did really well originally. There were tidbits of lore in the original game about Velious (you could find Ice of Velious in original zones), and the factions overlapped so significantly, because this guy liked that guy but didn't like the other, so if you kill some followers in some place far away, you'd take faction hits (best example I can come up with off the top of my head is that killing Crushbone orcs lowers your faction in Neriak, but there are more wide spread examples.) The intertwined nature is really interesting.
#2... what I mean is if they launch with 50 servers, 25ish of them should be the clones of the current ones. So one of them would be Povar 2.0. Jonwin's account would have Jonwin 2.0 reserved on Povar 2.0 only. I could log in and create jonwins on every other server (unless there was pre-existing jonwins on other clones.)
I concede that this would work best if done as part of an early start. So if Jonwin (he's a lovely example...) didn't login to the early start to keep his name reserved on Povar 2.0... it would get wiped for the actual game launch. This added twist stops 1000s of names being reserved for people that would never come back.
#4. Both I could enjoy!
#5. SoE doing PVP has me really worried. Mystic had solid PVP cred and dropped the ball bigtime with Warhammer (the game was brutally unfinished beyone level 11 and 2/3 of the world and the PVP didn't work in a PVE weak world --meanwhile parts of the game were amazing such as some races/classes and the 1-11 bracket pvp instances). WoW pvp has messed up itemization and the culture of the game. As long as PVP is totally separate servers... then it doesn't really matter. I just doubt it gets done well enough to please pvpers.
#7 I should have been clearer... HP/AC/Mana/endurance should significantly scale up with levels and expacs. The other basic stats (i.e., strength, Charisma) should not make the huge jumps. I remember picking gear for main stats for my class... they need to get that back in, but keep the math reasonable (not 2000 charisma as launch base).
#9 exactly... appearance slots is one EQ2 feature that must make it to EQnext. so much better than armor dye... because you can make the all black such-and-such design a rare drop in funny places, and people will do it for ever because it's a fashion choice not a stat need. I would wear gnomeskin in EQ on several characters if I could just set its look. Ditto for Crustacean shell armor... on my necro.
#10 That could work. It's an area that hasn't been clear to me (what they actually intend to do with EQnext for lore/setting).
Great reply amastropolo... but what didn't I mention that is important?
example: main cities and hubs... newer games have all done that differently --what method is desirable?
I concede that this would work best if done as part of an early start. So if Jonwin (he's a lovely example...) didn't login to the early start to keep his name reserved on Povar 2.0... it would get wiped for the actual game launch. This added twist stops 1000s of names being reserved for people that would never come back.
#4. Both I could enjoy!
#5. SoE doing PVP has me really worried. Mystic had solid PVP cred and dropped the ball bigtime with Warhammer (the game was brutally unfinished beyone level 11 and 2/3 of the world and the PVP didn't work in a PVE weak world --meanwhile parts of the game were amazing such as some races/classes and the 1-11 bracket pvp instances). WoW pvp has messed up itemization and the culture of the game. As long as PVP is totally separate servers... then it doesn't really matter. I just doubt it gets done well enough to please pvpers.
#7 I should have been clearer... HP/AC/Mana/endurance should significantly scale up with levels and expacs. The other basic stats (i.e., strength, Charisma) should not make the huge jumps. I remember picking gear for main stats for my class... they need to get that back in, but keep the math reasonable (not 2000 charisma as launch base).
#9 exactly... appearance slots is one EQ2 feature that must make it to EQnext. so much better than armor dye... because you can make the all black such-and-such design a rare drop in funny places, and people will do it for ever because it's a fashion choice not a stat need. I would wear gnomeskin in EQ on several characters if I could just set its look. Ditto for Crustacean shell armor... on my necro.
#10 That could work. It's an area that hasn't been clear to me (what they actually intend to do with EQnext for lore/setting).
Great reply amastropolo... but what didn't I mention that is important?
example: main cities and hubs... newer games have all done that differently --what method is desirable?
snailish wrote:
example: main cities and hubs... newer games have all done that differently --what method is desirable?
IMO, the WoW method is the best I've seen (note, limited to Vanguard, EQ, EQ2 and WoW, which I've spent a fair amount of time in each.) There's one central hub for good and evil and everything takes you back there. Sort of like if there were no starting cities, and you went to the PoKG for good side and PoKE for evils. EQ could have one central hub I guess, since the good and evils do mix. Unelss they made them teams (in WoW, the two sides don't mix even on PvE servers, and they have PvP specific zones (daily quest hub) that you can get killed in.)
EQ had the starting cities, which worked well when the game was new, but don't work at all anymore. In fact, I'd love to see an expansion where they obliterate all the old starting cities and make them raids, and then expand and revamp the PoK so it serves as the central hub that it should be (and for the most part, is.) EQ2 suffered a somewhat similar fate. They added new (and much better) starting areas, and Qeynos and Freeport were not very used. They are in fact revamping them, Freeport this year, Qeynos next year (though I'm not sure what the revamps will bring, besides a consolidated zone.)
WoW took their model even farther (I didn't play through much of these so I can't be precise):
Original game had the starter areas for each race with a clear emphasis on some of the cities over others (or at the very least more dev time spent).
1st expac gave each side a new hub city for the new continent, whether you were playing that new race or not you used the city a bit.
Then they moved to a neutral hub model almost a PoK/Shar Val combo (I'm foggy if this was 2 cities in the same expac or 2 expacs).
For cataclysm (the latest expac) they did something brilliant... they reinstated 2 of the original main capital cities as the hubs for the new content.
I believe it's been suggested (but not confirmed) that such recycling is going to continue, so WoW players can expect the next expac to bring the oldest content (now mostly from the 1st expac) up to current.
In short... the game is hubbed out of a few points. The hubs have changed with time, but appear to be cycling.
Imagine EQ being based out of Cabilis, FV (new slum outpost!), and Overthere again...
I hope EQnext learns from having dead capital cities and a lifeless hub (afk lobby... gah!).
Edited, Jul 11th 2011 10:12pm by snailish
Original game had the starter areas for each race with a clear emphasis on some of the cities over others (or at the very least more dev time spent).
1st expac gave each side a new hub city for the new continent, whether you were playing that new race or not you used the city a bit.
Then they moved to a neutral hub model almost a PoK/Shar Val combo (I'm foggy if this was 2 cities in the same expac or 2 expacs).
For cataclysm (the latest expac) they did something brilliant... they reinstated 2 of the original main capital cities as the hubs for the new content.
I believe it's been suggested (but not confirmed) that such recycling is going to continue, so WoW players can expect the next expac to bring the oldest content (now mostly from the 1st expac) up to current.
In short... the game is hubbed out of a few points. The hubs have changed with time, but appear to be cycling.
Imagine EQ being based out of Cabilis, FV (new slum outpost!), and Overthere again...
I hope EQnext learns from having dead capital cities and a lifeless hub (afk lobby... gah!).
Edited, Jul 11th 2011 10:12pm by snailish
Yes, you're correct. Dalaran was the central hub for Lich King, Shattrah was for Burning Crusade. Once the next expansion pack came out, the previous hub was totally barren (similar to the EQ Cities). I completely forgot about that. You still had reason to go to the cities (I don't think there was a guild bank or an auction house in the expansion hubs.) Everything for Cataclysm is based in the main cities though, which keeps them alive.
One thing I forgot to mention. Something they should stay away from, is a linear levelling path. WoW has pretty much one single path you follow from about level 15 all the way up to max level. In EQ, there's a ton of different ways to go. That increases the replayability for me. Having to follow the exact same path is not fun at all, when you're going thru it a second time. I'm not sure what EQ2 does, it's been a while since I levelled a toon there. But having multiple paths up adds to the enjoyment. In WoW, I heard from a friend (though not confirmed) that they even nerfed XP in older expansions if you were above a certain level to force you to go to the next one.
Edited, Jul 12th 2011 7:43am by amastropolo
One thing I forgot to mention. Something they should stay away from, is a linear levelling path. WoW has pretty much one single path you follow from about level 15 all the way up to max level. In EQ, there's a ton of different ways to go. That increases the replayability for me. Having to follow the exact same path is not fun at all, when you're going thru it a second time. I'm not sure what EQ2 does, it's been a while since I levelled a toon there. But having multiple paths up adds to the enjoyment. In WoW, I heard from a friend (though not confirmed) that they even nerfed XP in older expansions if you were above a certain level to force you to go to the next one.
Edited, Jul 12th 2011 7:43am by amastropolo
WoW has done something awful as well... "phasing" of zones. So now you can be levelling your level 5 in a newb zone and be out of phase with your level 7 friend... standing on top of each other on the map, but can't see each other or work together until you get in phase.
...and yes, Having played Catyclsym long enough to take a goblin to level 59 (without really trying to get xp --it took about 5 weeks) the quests lines have become very linear. Goblins (for example) are locked into a starter series that they cannot skip or get out of... you are level 10ish by the time you have freedom to at least go pick up a different areas linear quest lines. It was a blast the first time.... super tedious after that (I tried 3-4 classes on goblin to try and get myself to like that game).
So in short.. no phasing, keep the non-linear aspects of EQ (i.e., a quest might have 5 stages, but not all quests precursor each other).
...and yes, Having played Catyclsym long enough to take a goblin to level 59 (without really trying to get xp --it took about 5 weeks) the quests lines have become very linear. Goblins (for example) are locked into a starter series that they cannot skip or get out of... you are level 10ish by the time you have freedom to at least go pick up a different areas linear quest lines. It was a blast the first time.... super tedious after that (I tried 3-4 classes on goblin to try and get myself to like that game).
So in short.. no phasing, keep the non-linear aspects of EQ (i.e., a quest might have 5 stages, but not all quests precursor each other).
Scholar
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Just want to jump in with my thoughts on this. I like some of the thoughts and ideas that hav been expressed in this thread. EQ was my first MMO, but I joined it a little later than most of the classic EQ-lovin' crew (right before or after the Ykesha expansion dropped). Still, I got to see and experience most of the oldest content, because the community was still doing most of it. (I just realized I was babbling about the extensive core group I played with, so I snipped it and will get back on track).
When all but a couple of the people I played with left for WOW, I followed as I had formed quite a bond with them, and didn't want to lose the experience of playing with them. Anyway, for several years, I played most of the major MMO games that have come out, and kept folowing that group back to WOW. Around August of last year (I'm closing in on the one year anniversary of my return to my first MMO love), I realized I was sick of WOW and decided to return to EQ after a six year absence. I immediately fell back in love with EQ. Although I have not let my accounts lapse since returning, I have tried a couple more MMO's,including the beta and opening two weeks or so of Rifts. I have decided I will now be with EQ until the servers are shut down, unless EQNext is as good as I hope it will be and does NOT follow the dominant design trend of recent MMO's that I have realized i completely despise.
New games have followed the model that WOW made so popular: start at the newbie area colleting quests that you are specifically and unavoidably led to until you are directed to the next quest hub. Then, throughout the course of your journey to level cap, you are led by the nose from quest hub to quest hub. All of the lore you learn, gear you get, skills you acquire, etc., are given to you in this manner. Sure,every once in a while you can decide which of two zones you want to level from 30 to 35 in, and sometimes there are a couple of different paths to choose from, but for the most part, you are basically playing on a pre-determined path to level cap. Where the next part that I grew weary of begins: doing the same thing over and over and over again to collect currency of some sort to buy gear upgrades. And once you have all the best gear (which I, as casual a player as I am manged to do in two of three expansions), you hang out with guildies and friends doing whatever you can to amuse yourself. Since leveling is such a guided experience, alts get boring. (Even new classes, races and factions leave you running out of variety quickly).
I know many will have rebuttals to this, so I will state now that this is all my personal opinion and is anchored in my personal gaming preferences. I much prefer the EQ model that is much more open ended to me and gives me an experience closer to the open world DnD campaigns that I preferred over playing with GM's that spoon fed you module type adventures and didn't let you decide where you were headedon the world map and what you were going to do. Would you head to the nearest temple of the god you worshipped and see what they needed done, go to the mayor of the town and inquire about any jobs needed doing, or would you simply head outo explore the ruins of the abandoned castle you heard all those stories and rumors about growing up?
In EQ, I could choose any number of paths to get to level 10. A good variety of camps to hunt monster in, quests I could do if I wanted, etc. And I think my favorite thing about EQ has to be AA abilities. Like I said, I'm pretty casual, and have yet to hit current level cap in any EQ expansion, but if I do, I've got AA's to work on instead of doing dailies, or searching desperately for something to stave off boredom in the chance that I ever manage to be max level with all my best-in-slot gear.
I know it is all another grind, and I know many out there will have plenty of flames and conterpoints, and that's fine. This is all just my worthless (to you) opinion and the way I prefer to game. I'm not one of those people proclaiming "LOL,WOW is ezmode for noobs!" It is just a hope that EQNext is a return to the more open ended leveling model. I want to choose where I xp and which quests I do, not be forced to follow a set path determined for me. And please, oh god, please have AA abilities!
Sorry, this turned in to a boring wall of text, but I realized when I came back that the WOW questing model sucked the soul out of MMO's for me. No matter how cool the Rift soul tree concept may have turned out, I just got so bored following the path to the next quest hub and dealng with the same predetermined quests and NPC's until I finished the area and was led by the hand to the next stage. And with the exception of perhaps a different beginning and some class specific nuggets here and there, any alts would do the exact same thing. New factions would be different for one character maybe, but even then the pathz usually coincide in some way once you reach a certain level. I'll stop now, sorry for the wall of text.
When all but a couple of the people I played with left for WOW, I followed as I had formed quite a bond with them, and didn't want to lose the experience of playing with them. Anyway, for several years, I played most of the major MMO games that have come out, and kept folowing that group back to WOW. Around August of last year (I'm closing in on the one year anniversary of my return to my first MMO love), I realized I was sick of WOW and decided to return to EQ after a six year absence. I immediately fell back in love with EQ. Although I have not let my accounts lapse since returning, I have tried a couple more MMO's,including the beta and opening two weeks or so of Rifts. I have decided I will now be with EQ until the servers are shut down, unless EQNext is as good as I hope it will be and does NOT follow the dominant design trend of recent MMO's that I have realized i completely despise.
New games have followed the model that WOW made so popular: start at the newbie area colleting quests that you are specifically and unavoidably led to until you are directed to the next quest hub. Then, throughout the course of your journey to level cap, you are led by the nose from quest hub to quest hub. All of the lore you learn, gear you get, skills you acquire, etc., are given to you in this manner. Sure,every once in a while you can decide which of two zones you want to level from 30 to 35 in, and sometimes there are a couple of different paths to choose from, but for the most part, you are basically playing on a pre-determined path to level cap. Where the next part that I grew weary of begins: doing the same thing over and over and over again to collect currency of some sort to buy gear upgrades. And once you have all the best gear (which I, as casual a player as I am manged to do in two of three expansions), you hang out with guildies and friends doing whatever you can to amuse yourself. Since leveling is such a guided experience, alts get boring. (Even new classes, races and factions leave you running out of variety quickly).
I know many will have rebuttals to this, so I will state now that this is all my personal opinion and is anchored in my personal gaming preferences. I much prefer the EQ model that is much more open ended to me and gives me an experience closer to the open world DnD campaigns that I preferred over playing with GM's that spoon fed you module type adventures and didn't let you decide where you were headedon the world map and what you were going to do. Would you head to the nearest temple of the god you worshipped and see what they needed done, go to the mayor of the town and inquire about any jobs needed doing, or would you simply head outo explore the ruins of the abandoned castle you heard all those stories and rumors about growing up?
In EQ, I could choose any number of paths to get to level 10. A good variety of camps to hunt monster in, quests I could do if I wanted, etc. And I think my favorite thing about EQ has to be AA abilities. Like I said, I'm pretty casual, and have yet to hit current level cap in any EQ expansion, but if I do, I've got AA's to work on instead of doing dailies, or searching desperately for something to stave off boredom in the chance that I ever manage to be max level with all my best-in-slot gear.
I know it is all another grind, and I know many out there will have plenty of flames and conterpoints, and that's fine. This is all just my worthless (to you) opinion and the way I prefer to game. I'm not one of those people proclaiming "LOL,WOW is ezmode for noobs!" It is just a hope that EQNext is a return to the more open ended leveling model. I want to choose where I xp and which quests I do, not be forced to follow a set path determined for me. And please, oh god, please have AA abilities!
Sorry, this turned in to a boring wall of text, but I realized when I came back that the WOW questing model sucked the soul out of MMO's for me. No matter how cool the Rift soul tree concept may have turned out, I just got so bored following the path to the next quest hub and dealng with the same predetermined quests and NPC's until I finished the area and was led by the hand to the next stage. And with the exception of perhaps a different beginning and some class specific nuggets here and there, any alts would do the exact same thing. New factions would be different for one character maybe, but even then the pathz usually coincide in some way once you reach a certain level. I'll stop now, sorry for the wall of text.
snailish wrote:
WoW has done something awful as well... "phasing" of zones. So now you can be levelling your level 5 in a newb zone and be out of phase with your level 7 friend... standing on top of each other on the map, but can't see each other or work together until you get in phase.
Yes the phasing. Ugh.
The phasing technology is pretty cool in general. To do something and have an effect on the environment is very interesting. But it was horribly overused in Cata. My buddy and his wife played together. He got a head start on her, because she wasn't sure if she was going to play or not. He had completed the underwater zone by the time she started. But he couldn't do anything to help her along, because she was constantly out of phase.
WoW tends to over use things like that. Take the raids for example (sorry if I already mentioned this.) You're always looking at the floor to find the spot you're supposed to stand in or run from the spot you're not supposed to stand in. I do so little actual damage because of that.
I did the goblin area mainly just to do it. I enjoyed riding around their starter area. I did the, er, wolfman area too (dang, forgot what they are called). Both well done and enjoyable, once.
Because of the way it's set up, I play WoW for about 5 months. I pick it back up around the time the expansion comes out, I play for ~3-5 months and then I quit until the next expansion comes out.
The WoW model is to get you to max level ASAP, so you can gear progress. Personally, I don't find gear progression to be progression. Yes, it gives you more power and the ability to do new things (or old things faster) but to me, that doesn't feel like progression. Levels and AAs are progression. Plus the WoW itemization is horrid. You get a new set of boots. 3 quests later, you get a better set of boots. 5 quests later, you get another set of boots. The items within the first few quests of the next expansion are far better than anything you have now. So you immediately throw everything away and start replacing it. Until you're max level and raid, you don't get items that will last you any reasonable amount of time.
Edited, Jul 13th 2011 8:02am by amastropolo
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