Multi boxers and old thnking!Follow

Shamans a poor choice? Then why are folks always looking for unity?
Actually shamans have a very important role as slower, that is why they are mentioned. ( That's my 25 word answer.)

And as i already mentioned other classes can slow too and bring significantly more DPS and utility to groups with casters. Unity can be had in the GL, or you can do as i do and campfire your shaman in, buff and swap out for another class that brings more to the group.

Touchin, not everyone is seeking to eke out the maximum possible from their box crew. Some people prefer ease of play over efficiency.

Yes, a Bard offers more in the way of versatility to a box team but if a person is ONLY looking for slow/haste/heal, the bard doesn't fit the bill as well as the shaman. Doesn't matter if your crew is efficient if it doesn't work the way you want it to. It's about using the tools you need. If you asked for a screwdriver and someone rolled over a Snap-On tool cart, you'd be like, "The hell? I asked for a screwdriver, not the whole freakin' tool shed" (or something similar).

For most melee, the shaman is the perfect partner. As far as I know, SK/Shaman is still the best duo in the game (well, aside from maybe Mage/Mage). So it makes sense that many still hold to that melee centric line of thinking. A pure caster duo is too much for many people to want to even consider.

Heck, I say why only run 2 or 3?

My old guild leader from 6-7 years ago boxed a ranger and shammy, and he swore by it. I've never played either, so can't comment myself.

Currently boxing DRU/ENC/MAG, not through any specific planning, it just sorta happened over the years :) Probably nowhere near optimal, but it works for me.

Plus, at the speed I level, changing classes now would be a killer!

Tat

I box SK, mage, bard and the wife plays her wiz. Even with the SK having the bard pull is so much easier. And you seriously underestimate the value of CC but of course you do you are level 75 according to your other post.



I would LOVE to see a potion thats even comparable to my bards hp/mana regen songs. One other thing if you play SK or necro (which it seems you do) potions do not stack with our lich line bard songs do (not sure on chanter buffs but i assume they do as well).



The difference being shamans provide significant buffs to melee, bards and chanters provide significant buffs to all classes. The buffs that bards bring to casters are massive, the buffs they bring to melee is better than shamans.



Bards have effortless AOE slow. I know shamans have AOE slow but with bard just put it in /melody and you're good to go.



Yes, a 2 minute cooldown root, thats your answer to CC.



No, there is no class that can touch the buffs of bards. Shamans are good buffers bards are better... The only thing people stick to is unity which is very overrated.



Again for pure melee groups its an easy choice, shaman. But for "casters with a melee pet" like you said the bard wins hands down. A mage pet should only be 40% tops of the mages DPS with a shaman you are ignoring 60% of the DPS with a shaman over bard. With necro its 20/80 at most and you are ignoring the main cause of the DPS.

Just looking at your group in the other thread you posted in. Nec, Mage, shaman with a healer merc. If you are not even using the shaman to heal in that group its a wasted group slot as far as im concerned.

You do realize that bards have a proc line as well right and its better than the panther line... Bards can take you to the haste + overhaste cap and shamans cant.

aura
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35203

/melody these
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35188
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35164
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35119
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3066

That blows away any buffs your shaman can bring to the table, has slow and buffs healing.

So yes like i said its old thinking... Shamans are not even the best melee buffers anymore and have not been in quite a while. Bards melee buffs are better than shamans, bards caster buffs are massive.

Bards buff healing by 10% and the same song adds huge mana/hp regen. Bards buff melees haste all the way to OH cap, 38% to triple attack chance, 6% flurry, flurry added specifically to pets, increase the minimum damage of skills by 35% and increase skill damage by 4%. 28% increase in spell damage and a better proc buff than the panther line that so many people keep bringing up...

Add in 50% slow and thats just MY /melody setup.

So again enough with the old thinking. Shamans have not been the kings of melee buffing for years. Its time to stop with the automatic answers from years gone by and actually do some homework. Bards buff melee damage much better than shamans do these days, they buff caster DPS better than anyone these days. Bards are literally THE BEST BUFFER IN THE GAME.

And in direct response to you. Your group is nec, mage shaman and you use a cleric merc. Look at the songs i linked that i use and tell me what your shaman does better? Slowing is it...

Im not saying if you play a shaman you are bad or anyone should change their ways. My frustration comes from being in game and seeing people ask what to add to a group and people saying shamans are the best. Even last night, someone asked "I have a mage and a wizard what should i add" first 4 responses where shaman!

Just another quick word on the "Potions" (mana regen):

The level 70 potion grants 15 mana/tick. The level 68 chanter mana buff (Clairvoyance) grants 20. Fairly comparable (chanter 33% better).

By level 80, it's 20/tick for the potion, and 35/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +75%)

By level 90, it's 32/tick for the potion, and 66/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +106%)

I don't have numbers for the higher level potions, but the level 98 chanter buff is 105/tick for the rank 2.

So the pots are nice in a pinch, but the chanter buffs are quite a bit better, especially at the higher levels.

Tat

PS - looking at the DS potions, it's the same story. The higher level ones don't scale well at all at higher levels, compared to the buff spells.

The level 90 bard song pulse of renewal, with all buffing AAs and group level instrument mods is 220 mana regen 358 hp regen. Thats a level 90 song... On top of that 8% in increased healing for the group.

Old timers need to dust off their memories and go look at the instrument mods on gear from HoT+ then take a second look at those bard songs. At level 90 ROF group gear gets you resonance 26 260% instrument mods.

Does anyone on this forum have any clue how bards work these days? Surely someone here mains a bard and can set these old timers right... Its obnoxious how the old mob mentality still sticks around here.

1 VP and ROOT both can give viable CC for the times you dont want to wait for the FD pull or mobs bug on pull

2 where are the bards buffs to Max hp? all i see is regen and haste in your post admittedly the bard is better at those 2 things

3 how is it a wasted slot since im not using the sham to heal? he is slows and dots his heals are only 3k without a crit

4 as far as i have seen, and i even asked a few guildies that are at higher lvls a FD puller can solo pull anywhere in the game except for a few encounters where the adds are chained with the main mob.

5 necros dont need mana regen the lich line and rune keeps me at 90% constantly with chain pulling and keeping all my dots up and im only in defiant armor

6. i dont know what casters you group with but already i get huge slams on the mages nukes and necro dots... for the necro its not so bad as FD is the ultimate deaggro but the mage overaggroing is a bad thing. so you can buff my dots and nukes? i already take down anything white or lower inside the 30 sec on my shortest dot. and red is about 45 sec.

7. so noone is allowed to disagree with your posts?

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 5:54pm by Marance

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 6:02pm by Marance

I was not disagreeing with you. Just expanding on what you said to make a point. The people on these forums consider themselves vastly knowledgeable when most of them barely have a clue and instead of actually looking at something they disagree with and checking it out they simple give anecdotal and flimsy arguments and when that fails just hit the rate button to make it disappear.

Thats the problem with zams eq forum in a nutshell. You have a bunch of high and mighty know it alls that absolutely refuse to listen to anyone not in the clique and then gang up and make the person disappear with the karma system that has utterly destroyed every forum on these boards. Look around the forums they are all quite dead and it happened the same way. A few groups sat around manipulating the karma system to put themselves above others and then used it to run off anyone they didnt like.

I have lurked these forums for many years and never bothered to make an account until recently because of this. I cant even count how many times i have seen the groups of the "elite" run off anyone who dared enter their forum and not adhere to their strict and unwritten rules of etiquette.

I really regret making an account here now. Theres so much better actual discussion on other forums. Here theres no discussion its "i disagree, here is my crappy argument that ignores half what you said and has no proof to back me up, oh ***** it rate down".

I use VP and root now, they scale with lvl just because they are a tiny bit less reliable than charm / mezz doesnt change that. and btw i used this pairing when i was capped at 70 back when oow was out and it was challenging and root was viable then... and where is this hostility coming from? i havent been hostile and am trying to have a conversation like an adult, but yet you are doing everything short of calling me a "poopy head" to try and demean me or lessen my statement rather than put forth a cogent argument.

hello cleric and shaman buffs stack!!! so its even more HP and yes i read the lineup. and i realize that bard do more than those 2 things, i was just saying that those are 2 things that while both classes have em bards are better

you have a dot that ticks for 6448? but i would rather have 4 or 5 dots going which even at a lowly 75 each one is ticking for 900+ and its not unusual for me to crit on the sham for 1800 - 2500 a tick with 3 or 4 at the same time. and i would like to point out that i am comparing the spell of a lvl 75 sham with the spell of a lvl 100 bard

and i admit that there are things that the bard has which the shaman doesnt such as the dot boosting spell so there is no way for the shaman to top something he doesnt have, and i admit also that the bard is better to increase dps but dps increase doesnt mean much if you dont have the survivability to match.

How is the shaman dps poor? his dots are right up there ticking as high as my necros, that may change at lvl 100 but im sure the extra survivability of having a shaman there will more than compensate.

I pretty much only FD pull, to break a camp once a camp is broken i can keep chain pulling consistently yes it is easier to paci but that doesnt change the argument that a good FD puller removes the need for CC.

mana management has always been a part of EQ, but i tell ya this now i never FULL burn on the mage or shaman because they cant deaggro effectively. why would i want to kill my toons? i would rather kill the mobs. my spell casting sub. is maxxed atm and i still gank threat even from real tanks unless they are waaay over lvl.

and also i never clicked downrate or anything else on you, i am now simply because of your inability to make a point without trying to demean others or run them down, also i was a raider from the time that pop came out till right after OOW. i am not new to the game and i have played at cap for years, yes some things have changed but not the basic game mechanics, so now that your poor attitude has earned you yet another downrating i hope you have a nice day