I feel like if there was a good way for devs to do it, we'd have had it 7 years ago :/
Edited, May 11th 2013 6:44pm by benjjjamin
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benjjjamin wrote:
I feel like if there was a good way for devs to do it, we'd have had it 7 years ago :/
Edited, May 11th 2013 6:44pm by benjjjamin
Edited, May 11th 2013 6:44pm by benjjjamin
Not necessarily. I think it's more a matter of dev teams prioritizing their resources. There's no particularly compelling need to design a system like this for a tiny fraction of your playerbase that's going to use it when that fraction is handling it fine by themselves.
Given a glut of developer resources, it might be worthwhile it integrate some of the management into the game. But for the most part, I suspect it just isn't worth the time investment.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
benjjjamin wrote:
I feel like if there was a good way for devs to do it, we'd have had it 7 years ago :/
Edited, May 11th 2013 6:44pm by benjjjamin
Edited, May 11th 2013 6:44pm by benjjjamin
You're vastly overestimating the development process and the people who work within it.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I feel like if there was a good way for devs to do it, we'd have had it 7 years ago :/
Edited, May 11th 2013 6:44pm by benjjjamin
Edited, May 11th 2013 6:44pm by benjjjamin
Not necessarily. I think it's more a matter of dev teams prioritizing their resources. There's no particularly compelling need to design a system like this for a tiny fraction of your playerbase that's going to use it when that fraction is handling it fine by themselves.
Given a glut of developer resources, it might be worthwhile it integrate some of the management into the game. But for the most part, I suspect it just isn't worth the time investment.
And you're vastly overestimating the difficulty of these systems, while vastly underestimating their value. They're not difficult to implement and the value is much higher than you're giving credit. Consider a game like FFXI, for example. How many players in FFXI are at endgame and would like to participate in that type of content? Probably the majority of them, if not the considerable majority. Certainly in many games, it's not some insignificant fraction. Even in WoW, we'd be talking about hundreds of thousands of players. It depends on the game, because as I've said half a dozen times, the designers are the ones who determine these systems and their needs. But if you LIKE player based systems, then simple tools like these which take very little time to design are a no-brainer, and if you DON'T like them, then you'd have to agree that designers need to do a better job with loot distribution systems.
Devs aren't failing to include these things because they're "prioritizing their resources." If they were, they'd be implementing these features (else they're just really bad at prioritizing). Compare to other features that they implement and this is obvious. Primarily it's because of an unwillingness to solve simple problems. In the best defense, it's because higher-ups won't let them do anything too different, even if it smacks of common sense.
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Consider a game like FFXI, for example
FFXI is a horrible example because it's the exception to most of the rules that MMOs have developed around after WoW shifted the paradigm.
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Even in WoW, we'd be talking about hundreds of thousands of players.
Out of tens of millions over its life.
To be sure, content is developed for these people, they're called raids. They're pretty well done most of the time. The guilds that handle them casually are fine with rolling dice and letting fate be the judge. The guilds that take them more seriously need something a little more controlled, and infinite loot systems are born to fill the myriad levels of need there.
Actually I think WoW may also be a bad example because addons help tremendously in this regard.
Maybe SWTOR? Are their raids complex enough to require progression? I don't actually know. I know that SWTOR has (or at least had) this kind of modified loot system that tailored the boss drops to the classes that were present.
Anyway.
What I meant by "prioritizing resources" is that a system like this isn't a priority. The guilds that want it will handle it themselves, and the guilds that don't need it are 90% of your playerbase.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
We're just not going to agree on this one. These are easy fixes that improve the group's ability to manage leadership through the content. More leadership, equals more content experience for players, equals greater engagement with the game. You either create a game that needs loot distribution mechanics and benefits significantly from these systems, or you create one that doesn't and you have to use a design-oriented loot distribution approach.
Frankly, I'm sensing that you don't know enough about the subject to articulate a strong defense, and are just being an apologist for game designers (which, if you knew them in person, you'd probably better understand how deeply jaded, flawed, and uncritical they can be regarding their work). I genuinely don't mean that as an attack or insult, just that I think we've reached an impasse in the conversation, where you're starting to tread on my pet peeve of making excuses for people who aren't doing their job. I feel that the discussion has been productive, and I don't want it to turn into an argument, but I don't think I can be any more convincing than I've been, nor should I need to be.
Frankly, I'm sensing that you don't know enough about the subject to articulate a strong defense, and are just being an apologist for game designers (which, if you knew them in person, you'd probably better understand how deeply jaded, flawed, and uncritical they can be regarding their work). I genuinely don't mean that as an attack or insult, just that I think we've reached an impasse in the conversation, where you're starting to tread on my pet peeve of making excuses for people who aren't doing their job. I feel that the discussion has been productive, and I don't want it to turn into an argument, but I don't think I can be any more convincing than I've been, nor should I need to be.
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Frankly, I'm sensing that you don't know enough about the subject to articulate a strong defense, and are just being an apologist for game designers
I'm not sure exactly how you thought that wouldn't be insulting.
I'm also fine not agreeing with you on this. It will not, however, stop me from presenting my position in conversation with other people in those areas where I have experience. Dealing with endgame leadership structures happens to be one of those areas. Game design is not my primary background, however I do possess critical thinking skills and the ability to be objective.
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(which, if you knew them in person, you'd probably better understand how deeply jaded, flawed, and uncritical they can be regarding their work)
This parenthetical is actually quite illuminating when it comes to understanding where your position is coming from. I suspected it, but I didn't have quite enough information to draw a conclusion until then. In general I've found that designers (of all sorts) tend to be their own harshest critics. Of course that's never stopped anyone from armchair quarterbacking (or armchair game designing as the case may be).
Clearly I'm not going to convince you of my position, but I think you might want to take a step back and examine yours a little more objectively. You may be assigning a little too much emotional bias to it. Don't get me wrong there, it's good to be passionate about things, that's how things get done. But maybe look and see if what you're saying really makes sense critically.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
My view on it is that the devs can provide these tools easily. Sure, it's not a "priority" for the resources today, and probably wouldn't be until the game is live for a month, but under requirements I'd stick this under "It would be nice if..." which is usually a wishlist for the next big patch for a program.
Again, a first year SQL student could program this in a day. I could fire up MySQL right now and make the back end of it. It's just names and timestamps and simple math.
Again, a first year SQL student could program this in a day. I could fire up MySQL right now and make the back end of it. It's just names and timestamps and simple math.
My experience with EG from FFxi stems from this,
The Linkshell I joined had a list on their website of all the gear drops from the events they did (sky, limbus, dynamis, HNM's... etc). They also had a set amount of points associated with each item. You got points from attending events, HNM claims/kills, getting TOD's... etc. When any gear dropped those that wanted it and had the points would place their bid in open chat (this allowed everyone to see how bad some one wanted the item). At times people would drive the bid up higher than what one might of normally bid. It sucked when the drop was fairly common and paying with more points than originally wanted.
For our linkshell this worked rather well. To determine how many points you had at any given time before the event started you could go to the website the linkshell had created and look on there to see how many points you had. If you didn't have access to the web you could ask before the event or during the event (in between kills, pulls) any one of the officers that was assigned to cover points could give you your totals. The winning bid, player and drop would be added to the site after the event so people can see who got what.
Depending on how many subscribers the game has after launch or even before setting up the database and the way to manipulate it for such a thing would be rather easy for a programmer to do. The key is: Lets say the game is a huge success and draws in millions of players (this is just a example) maintaining a separate server for this (maintenance, cost) would be rather high, so they would have to do something to help alleviate this cost. With that in mind would you be willing to pay more than the normal amount for any MMO just to accommodate this added feature? How much would be to much? The average person who isn't familiar with the IT aspect of the gaming wouldn't have any clue on it while the others would, the average person who doesn't know any better would be saying it's a rip off to be playing what the normal avg is for mmo's in the market today.
The Linkshell I joined had a list on their website of all the gear drops from the events they did (sky, limbus, dynamis, HNM's... etc). They also had a set amount of points associated with each item. You got points from attending events, HNM claims/kills, getting TOD's... etc. When any gear dropped those that wanted it and had the points would place their bid in open chat (this allowed everyone to see how bad some one wanted the item). At times people would drive the bid up higher than what one might of normally bid. It sucked when the drop was fairly common and paying with more points than originally wanted.
For our linkshell this worked rather well. To determine how many points you had at any given time before the event started you could go to the website the linkshell had created and look on there to see how many points you had. If you didn't have access to the web you could ask before the event or during the event (in between kills, pulls) any one of the officers that was assigned to cover points could give you your totals. The winning bid, player and drop would be added to the site after the event so people can see who got what.
Depending on how many subscribers the game has after launch or even before setting up the database and the way to manipulate it for such a thing would be rather easy for a programmer to do. The key is: Lets say the game is a huge success and draws in millions of players (this is just a example) maintaining a separate server for this (maintenance, cost) would be rather high, so they would have to do something to help alleviate this cost. With that in mind would you be willing to pay more than the normal amount for any MMO just to accommodate this added feature? How much would be to much? The average person who isn't familiar with the IT aspect of the gaming wouldn't have any clue on it while the others would, the average person who doesn't know any better would be saying it's a rip off to be playing what the normal avg is for mmo's in the market today.
It wouldn't need to be a separate server. Compared to the thousands of tables associated with character data already, and the hundreds that will likely be involved in the Free Companies and that are already involved in linkshells, sticking in another 4-5 table database will be negligible in terms of cost. They already have the Lodestone for the external, front facing part of it.
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I'm not sure exactly how you thought that wouldn't be insulting.
Well, what I was trying to suggest was that you were arguing from a place of ignorance. I don't consider accusing someone of ignorance an insult--everyone has their ignorance. And I don't take offense to it when you suggest the same of me. That's why I say we're at an impasse--you think my opinion is too uninformed, and I think the same of you. And that could easily devolve into ad hominem and/or an argument about who knows more and why, and that really just doesn't interest me. So, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. On the contrary, I was trying to bow out respectfully. So please forgive my faux pas, and allow us to adjourn from a place of mutual respect.
Xoie wrote:
If Yoshi makes the game according to plan, there could (or at least should) be things like grinding, farming end game events for those who wish to pursue them. This is with the understanding that most people probably won't be interested in going that far, but a devoted base of hardcore players will (or will get bored too fast if there are no such things to pursue). The system to auto-group players into PUGs for challenges should be a middling approach for those who don't have the time for large groups, but there ought to still be events for large groups all the same.
The secret is that the "best" gear should not be so far ahead of "good enough" gear that there's no way a casual player could dabble in endgame whatsoever, or be locked out of essential skills and upgrades needed for their class / job. There needs to be a balance between a feeling of accomplishment for going the extra mile for good equipment but without making the good equipment the only way you'll be taken seriously at your class / job (e.g. no invite unless you have a fully upgraded relic weapon!)
The secret is that the "best" gear should not be so far ahead of "good enough" gear that there's no way a casual player could dabble in endgame whatsoever, or be locked out of essential skills and upgrades needed for their class / job. There needs to be a balance between a feeling of accomplishment for going the extra mile for good equipment but without making the good equipment the only way you'll be taken seriously at your class / job (e.g. no invite unless you have a fully upgraded relic weapon!)
I agree and hope so completely. When making my comments I was thinking of things such as relics being a separate entity from the typical end game of dungeons and whatnot where specific items in their entirety can drop off of a single boss. The majority of people will be able to feasibly obtain this dungeon loot given enough time and I think that SE will make dungeon gear progress fairly well. When first heard that they were raising the level cap in FFXI the first thing i thought of after OMFG /REFRESH WUT? was what about those that put all of that time/money into Relics/Mythics. I was pleasantly surprised when I found out that they were still the strongest weapons in the game if you completed a few more quests to raise their levels as well. I think that they have a very good system to look at when working with gear progression and power creep in the future.
I agree with what you mention about various group sizes. I think that at the time I was derping and was thinking that Alliance size was smaller in XIV, but I don't believe that is the case (still not entirely sure as to how that system works yet). However with instances being the norm SE could, in fact, limit the maximum amount of players allowed in to the Alliance cap. This would hopefully mean no more 64 man events with 3+ alliances (unless it was some insanely awesome world event that nearly anyone could join).
As a "semi-hardcore" player I've never had issues with there being stuff that I knew I could never do/get. Hell, I'm sure a lot of us in FFXI felt that way for a long time XD. When I first heard about Relic weapons and saw Saphari I knew I had to have it... Then I learned what you had to do for it and decided that it wasn't worth my time and I was okay with that. When I saw what people had to do for Mythic Weapons I blinked into an alternate reality somewhere in that timeline's future and slapped my firstborn son. (I may have watched the first season of Heroes this weekend...) These items need to be there for those that truly want to take up that journey, but it doesn't mean that they have to be an integral part of everyone else's end-game either.
/end rambly mood
/begin playing Dungeons of Dredmor and Thief Trilogy
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