Should we fear the class/job system?

#27 Jul 21 2013 at 7:50 PM Rating: Excellent

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schneiderw wrote:

klooste8 wrote:

dare I say, release THF as a CLASS since it seems more of a solo or small group role. Maybe THF could be the lvl15 req for DRK and the 30 req for NIN?

That is exactly how I think thf should be implemented. I figure that the lore for drk is that something should tempt him off the pld path (i.e. thieving), and thf -> nin just seems like a no brainer unless they make ninja a class and assasin a job.

Another option would be to have THF and NIN branch off from the same class. They could dual wield short swords and daggers. THF could focus more on positioning for spike damage, whereas NIN would have access to Ninjutsu. I could also see THF centered around stealing things from the opponentâ€“HP, MP, status buffs, and the like.

svlyons wrote:

Quistar49 wrote:

So in your opinion do you think that FFXIV's job system has more freedom than in FFXI? I don't know because i haven't experienced FFXIV's job system yet, only FFXI's. Thanks

I have only played Phase 3 Beta, so my experience is limited. However, I think FFXIV's job system has the potential to be more flexible than FFXI's job system. With FFXI, the subjob system gave your main job flexibility. However, you could only sub one job at a time. With FFXIV, you can get cross class abilities from more than one job at once. With access to 10 cross class abilities at 50, you could potentially cross class stuff from 10 other classes if the game every expanded to having that many classes.

You could say that the potential likely won't be realized, since you may only find 1 or 2 optimal sets of cross class abilities. But the same could be said for FFXI. i.e. you could have played as WHM/MNK, but that combination wasn't anywhere near as useful as the few optimal sub job choices that you had as WHM.

This explains things perfectly. Both systems have a lot of flexibility in theory but are limited by what's actually effective.

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#28 Jul 21 2013 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent

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svlyons wrote:

Quistar49 wrote:

So in your opinion do you think that FFXIV's job system has more freedom than in FFXI? I don't know because i haven't experienced FFXIV's job system yet, only FFXI's. Thanks

I have only played Phase 3 Beta, so my experience is limited. However, I think FFXIV's job system has the potential to be more flexible than FFXI's job system. With FFXI, the subjob system gave your main job flexibility. However, you could only sub one job at a time. With FFXIV, you can get cross class abilities from more than one job at once. With access to 10 cross class abilities at 50, you could potentially cross class stuff from 10 other classes if the game every expanded to having that many classes.

You could say that the potential likely won't be realized, since you may only find 1 or 2 optimal sets of cross class abilities. But the same could be said for FFXI. i.e. you could have played as WHM/MNK, but that combination wasn't anywhere near as useful as the few optimal sub job choices that you had as WHM.

Thanks, i see what you mean.

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#29 Jul 21 2013 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good

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Keep in mind that as a Job, 5 of your access slots are reserved for Job abilities you get throughout the levels, and you are restricted to 2 specific classes to choose from as far as abilities for the remaining 5 slots. It's more restrictive to keep you focus on the role that specific Job was meant to be used as for party play. That said, there's still variation within those two classes, though likely you will stick to what is best for the slot for whatever you are doing.

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#30 Jul 21 2013 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent

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FrozenSherbet wrote:

schneiderw wrote:

klooste8 wrote:

dare I say, release THF as a CLASS since it seems more of a solo or small group role. Maybe THF could be the lvl15 req for DRK and the 30 req for NIN?

That is exactly how I think thf should be implemented. I figure that the lore for drk is that something should tempt him off the pld path (i.e. thieving), and thf -> nin just seems like a no brainer unless they make ninja a class and assasin a job.

Another option would be to have THF and NIN branch off from the same class. They could dual wield short swords and daggers. THF could focus more on positioning for spike damage, whereas NIN would have access to Ninjutsu. I could also see THF centered around stealing things from the opponentâ€“HP, MP, status buffs, and the like.

Yup - this I like. Assassin as the class - dual-wielding short swords/daggers etc., sneak/stealthy-type ability, bleeds, an execute move, some debuff/cc sap-like things. NIN needs 15 THM, gets ninjitsu for further debuffing + damage spikes, takes on support/debuff role as well as damage (similar the the original intention of XI NIN, afaik. They never intended for it to be a tank!). THF needs 15 LNC for positional attacks, gets typical flimflam stuff (item/HP/gil steal), active SA/TA abilities for hate management. More pure DD role, but with tricks.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2013 1:13pm by carmelita

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#31 Jul 21 2013 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent

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Quistar49 wrote:

[ quote=asuran05]Think of it as archer as you class and jobs as "focuses".

Right now there is bard. Put bard on you have all of the archers abilities as well as bard. Then they release musketeer.
Its just another focus for you archer. Then you can decide which direction you want to go depending on the situation.

The job system seems to add more freedom to class.

As to freedom to play what you want.

The poster who wants to gladiator all the way. Just do it try it out. I plan on conjuring to 50.

So in your opinion do you think that FFXIV's job system has more freedom than in FFXI? I don't know because i haven't experienced FFXIV's job system yet, only FFXI's. Thanks [/quote]

I think it will give more freedom. The sub/job system was awesome. The job system seems to be completely different. And allow a player to specialise how they want when they want.

Now theorycrafters will tell us all what skills amd jobs everyone should be using. But as more jobs get released it will create even more freedom.

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#32 Jul 21 2013 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good

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I'm not really afraid of the job system.

I'm certain that min/maxers will have optimal configs; and really I don't mind that. In fact it gives the game a bit more longevity IMO. Though given the casual nature (so far) I think we'll see some very unorthodox combos.

I'm sure that some new jobs will have new classes as well, and that there might be tertiary requirements; like 2 jobs @ 30 and 1 job @15, or something.

I do hope that FFXIV borrows from FFXI for classes like NIN where you need to use consumables, but if ARC is any guide then they probably won't be going that route.

But in the end FFXIV is it's own game and really we haven't even touched the surface of what is, can be, or supposed to be.

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#33 Jul 22 2013 at 1:09 AM Rating: Good

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They had consumables in 1.0 but they seem to be going away with that entirely. At least in terms of arrows, shurikens, etc...

Edited, Jul 22nd 2013 12:09am by UltKnightGrover

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#34 Jul 22 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good

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The consumable thing in FFXI seems to be going away in most newer MMO's. WoW got rid of their's back in Wrath (I think), Rift never had it. I'm not positive, but I don't think GW2 has it either.

FFXI consumables I thought was an interesting idea (for NIN that is) implemented in a bad way. The tools were only crafter made, and thus you were held hostage by the market if you wanted to play NIN. Not to mention essential NIN scrolls sold for huge amounts. For a long time you could only level NIN if you were rich, could make your own tools, or just farmed for a long time between levels. To be fair, a lot of classes had to do that too, and maybe I was just jaded and NIN wasn't that extreme, but my napkin math told me NIN was a hell of a lot more expensive than SAM, PLD, or BLU. This of course changed when they made leveling "Gusgen Mines to 32-35 -> Crawlers Nest to 50-60 -> Bostaniuex Obliette (sp) to 99" You never had to really even use tools in those things.

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#35 Jul 22 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent

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Bororim wrote:

The consumable thing in FFXI seems to be going away in most newer MMO's. WoW got rid of their's back in Wrath (I think), Rift never had it. I'm not positive, but I don't think GW2 has it either.

FFXI consumables I thought was an interesting idea (for NIN that is) implemented in a bad way. The tools were only crafter made, and thus you were held hostage by the market if you wanted to play NIN. Not to mention essential NIN scrolls sold for huge amounts. For a long time you could only level NIN if you were rich, could make your own tools, or just farmed for a long time between levels. To be fair, a lot of classes had to do that too, and maybe I was just jaded and NIN wasn't that extreme, but my napkin math told me NIN was a hell of a lot more expensive than SAM, PLD, or BLU. This of course changed when they made leveling "Gusgen Mines to 32-35 -> Crawlers Nest to 50-60 -> Bostaniuex Obliette (sp) to 99" You never had to really even use tools in those things.

You could buy most, if not all ninja tools from merchants. Not they they weren't cheaper to buy from crafters though. Arrows were the same, although crafters could make a wider range of arrows and +1s I believe. I for one am glad that they got rid of consumables like this. It made the barrier of entry quite high for new players that desired to play RNG/NIN/COR/BST. And it led to a lot of gimp players of these jobs running around not using all of their job's abilities to full effect. Most NINs wouldn't use anything beyond Utsusemi, CORs wouldn't help deal damage much, and ARCs would run around with level 1 ammo.

With that said, I'm not a fan of the class/job system myself. I've felt like it is going to be a developmental corner that SE will get stuck into eventually ever since I heard that 1.0 characters were going to carry over to ARR. I've said it many times before, but the only reason that this system still exists is because of 1.0 characters not getting wiped. If they had forced everyone to start from level one they could have made a more robust job progression system. I know it isn't the fault of 1.0 players and that their time and effort shouldn't be wasted, but there could have been some middle ground somewhere for the sake of the game as a whole.

This system got a lot worse when they decided to make some/eventually all classes have multiple jobs tied to them. I can see where they are going with it though. It will end up being something akin to other MMOs skill tree "speccing", only more instantaneous. You would only have to respec your stat points after a swap.

The classes/jobs being tied to weapons is what concerns me most about this system. I don't know how they can make additional meaningful class/job combinations without reworking this system somewhat. GLA would be the most likely class to get DRK, but in the current system they would be limited to swords and shields instead of scythes. Perhaps they could add scythes as DRK only weapons while still allowing them to equip GLA's swords, but that just seems silly. They can't really allow you to be weaponless, since your weapon governs your class, so weapon swapping could get messy. Even if DRK wasn't a second job to GLA then what would be? Another tank job? Then what would be the point of playing PLD over XXX? Sure it could be a Magic Tank, but then it's more of a supplemental job to PLD than a standalone job that someone could work for and play without PLD.

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#36 Jul 22 2013 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent

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DamienSScott wrote:

The classes/jobs being tied to weapons is what concerns me most about this system. I don't know how they can make additional meaningful class/job combinations without reworking this system somewhat. GLA would be the most likely class to get DRK, but in the current system they would be limited to swords and shields instead of scythes. Perhaps they could add scythes as DRK only weapons while still allowing them to equip GLA's swords, but that just seems silly. They can't really allow you to be weaponless, since your weapon governs your class, so weapon swapping could get messy. Even if DRK wasn't a second job to GLA then what would be? Another tank job? Then what would be the point of playing PLD over XXX? Sure it could be a Magic Tank, but then it's more of a supplemental job to PLD than a standalone job that someone could work for and play without PLD.

If you look at this thread, you'll see that a couple of ACN's abilities get replaced by switching to SMN. Even though those were avatars, SE could do the same thing with GLA equipping DRK by replacing Flash, Provoke, and the like with DPS appropriate skills. If they're willing to do this with every additional job, I could see the system being successful. If not, quite a few classes could require a lot of reworking.

As far as Scythe goes, Final Fantasy Wiki shows just how uncommon they are in Final Fantasy. I wouldn't expect them to make a comeback.

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#37 Jul 22 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good

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GLA can wield daggers. Just add 2-hand swords into the mix and make it DRK only. Scythes seem like a FFXI only thing.

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