What happened to these forums?Follow

Please don't force me to read through the official forums...

I think your problem seems to come from this point of view. It's not about "weighing over others" because lets face it, if this was a real MMORPG, the only thing that would weigh over a "general player" is if my midan gun enhances my abilities DIRECTLY or even adds new abilities while equipped with it (the game's core supports this.). Me having 100 Crit on a gun versus your 87 Crit means jack **** in this game especially when you having a gun with 87 but you don't touch content that even requires those stats furthers the point it means nothing, so "Prestige" isn't even a thing in this game when you think about it..

People just want gear to match the content and content that actually MAKES IT WORTHWHILE to progress to and through. Which is why 3.2 actually has a route of progression for once since they actually had people caring for XIV's development direction..basically, since they were focused on relaunching the game and 2.0 - 2.2 was actually structured.



Well, then comes the thing you seem to be again:

People will then have to do PvP depending on the rewards, especially based on this game.

Raid Gun: 100 Skill Speed, 92 Det
PvP Gun: 100 Crit, 92 Det
Derpadem Gun: 60 Det, 45 Crit, 30 Skill Speed (cuz Aetherial)

Guess which gun you'd go for? You'd want the PvP gun because of the 100 Crit...but what if you despise PvP and don't want to touch PvP, similar to how people seem to not want to touch Savage? You're out of luck with this game's current itemization. So honestly, having a progression from 1 route to top tier, like now, is the best way until they make better items.



Actually, based on the report from the President himself, they bled because of the GAP between 3.0 - 3.1 because 3.0 wasn't that..well...packed with content, especially when you're done with MSQ. They have NEVER bled subs as badly as they did during the 3.x line of content progression. When the only content you have left is content not even the DEVELOPMENT TEAM TESTED OR COULD COMPLETE FROM STAR TO FINISH for 5 months..? You know what that does to ANY game? xD



Edited, Feb 26th 2016 4:57pm by Theonehio

The flaw in your counter-argument stems off of this:



This is misrepresenting content to tip the argument in your favor. But let's go with this. As a Dragoon. I value Crit and Skillspeed. Let's say that stat is on perhaps, two pieces from Diadem, One from Raid content, and another From PvP. If I'm min-maxing, guess what I'm doing?

All of it.

We can argue about how certain weapons will be dove for above another and how SE does weapons in this game really can be a discussion on its own. But in the end there's no reason SE can't distribute best in slot pieces, so that that players who want the best are encouraged to do a wide variety of content, rather than just focus on one. And, honestly, that's how FFXI was designed in the old days. It can be done with vertical progression, even with the content schedule we currently have, if SE was wise about how they distributed the loot system.



Except this isn't panning out in practice. Even now.

In the end I still feel that my philosophy of putting a clear end-point in gear progression accessible through multiple routes and then proceeding to focus on the performance game specifically would be the best overall route here. Primarily it'll help push down the grind fatigue by mixing up the content beyond a simple sequential order, which is what we have now with 3.2.

Literally, my loot path for the next seven weeks is all planned out for me already on reddit and I have to wonder whether or not I'm playing the game or if it's just playing me at this point. And if I choose a different route? Well, I fall behind, significantly - because it ties to my weapon upgrade path, which is the strongest boost in performance for any class.

What should have happened, is that seven weeks should have been a matter of just spending significant time in ANY of the content and then where you wound up getting your weapon ends up determining a different build path to similar if not 100% equivalent advancement. This would put choice back in the players hands. You'd get your sense of progression either way.

As far as the idea of maintaining a sense of challenge and purpose - I maintain my philosophy that the hardest content in the game shouldn't be about gear progression so much as a lasting reward structure that endures past the bi-annual reset.

Wooosh....

Ok let's start over.

First and foremost, what you're explaining as far as working hard for rewards that ultimately equate to daily bus fare. That occurs, right now, in the game, at all levels. People excuse it as 'progression' content, but when most content is synced unless you intentionally damage your rewards (like the new music scripts) and unsync it all you're doing with the current reward structure is treading water.

I'm not opposed to the cylce of progression, but at this point there's two probelms with it, and it's systemic to most MMOs these days.

First, you never stop preparing. You're pretty much dependent on the content you're participating in, to clear the content you're participating in when you reach the Savage level. That, for the lack of a alternately emphatic word, is downright stupid. If the purpose of the gear you're acquiring is to prepare you for the challenge ahead, then there should be an existing goal for which to complete that challenge. Not repeatedly beating that goal for said gear to more easily complete that said goal because there's no more goals to go for this patch.

This is especially important considering how quickly the recycle mechanic occurs in FFXIV. No matter where you are at in the ilvl chase, from the top to the bottom of that last cycle, all the catchup mechanics kick in and wipe out the accomplishments from the last two patches before it. Making it pretty much meaningless to approach that challenge in the first place.

So what we have is a perpetual state of preparing for something that never really occurs for rewards that never really mean anything. Everyone feels like they have to gear up and be current, but there's nothing to be current for, except the ilvl gates of the next patch's content, which could easily be acquired as soon as that content comes out.

Case in point: I went from 190 to 205 in two days of casual play. Heck, I probably could have geared most of 205 from unused wolf marks in my inventory instead of spamming Void Arc for upgrade tokens.

Why am I gearing up? To do the content that's current. Why am I doing the content that's current? To get access to the new gear that's out? What am I getting that gear for, for the next set of ilvl restrictions/artificial difficulty gates that are coming out. It's pointless. There's nothing there that instills a sense of accomplishment from my view. Not even grinding my butt off to get the 'best weapon' of a patch cycle that's maybe six months long at best, when that 'best weapon' won't even be best for the entirety of those two patches.

Raiding shouldn't be the end-note. Not the way that it's presented. The game itself should have a broader progression path to appeal to more than a narrow aspect of it's base. But that's only the one problem. Having a place where there's an actual challenge and reward structure not pinned on a self-depreciating cycle is really what needs to occur here. There's an incredibly limited sense of accomplishment here that we as players should really be seeing the seeds of this late into the game's development (and remember, that's me counting from a Realm Reborn, not 1.xx)

Mounts and furniture pieces are one thing, and I do think they need to exist in order to give permanence to some accomplishments. But I think the true end game accomplishment for putting that much effort into the game should go a step further than that. But in trade, I feel as if that preparedness should stop short of the hardcore line, and the defining factors should be skill, not ilvl.

Things like unique company buffs, custom combat animations and the like were ideas I threw out as more permanent rewards for those who tackle the challenge and go above and beyond and I still feel that can work.

In the end I feel vertical progression games have lost a sense of permanence with the way power creep works, and I feel that the reward structure for completing challenging content shouldn't also fall into that trap. Put bluntly, there's no point in having an ilevel above ~230 this patch, given adjustment for content difficulty. Instead, there should be better rewards for clearing Savage that aren't related to the ilvl climb.

This make sense to people?

So do I. But in terms for this discussion I let it go without saying. MMOs in and of themselves are like living storybooks. I want to have something to remind me of the adventures I have. In this case the majority of that is just gear that gets tossed once limited inventory space demands me to.

One of the reasons why I like things like the relics in FFXIV is that it's a physical symbol of the continuing story. Some thing that comes with me.

For terms of story progression you can go back and look at cutscenes in the Unending Journey. But in terms of other parts of contact, there's very little to remind you of achievements into the endgame, which is strange when you consider it impact the identity of players a lot. Those tales and trials become a part of what they are in game and there's little lasting impression for that, besides furniture which is quickly starting to lose space now.

I'm curious, do you actually raid in this game? Have you raided in this game? I don't mean "story mode", i mean getting down and dirty with the coils when they came out and did Savage Gordias and Midas. I wasn't misrepresenting anything - anyone who actually gears up their character per patch knows all too well this happens constantly when it comes to going for BiS (and yes, if you care about gear, you go for BiS, which is why Diadem was such a mess for the itemization.) A lot of times the raid drops were never anywhere near close to your BiS. So no, it's not misrepresenting, it happens A LOT. Ask anyone who actually raids and cares for their stats. Even more so now that SE slapped accuracy on almost every gear which makes you BLEED accuracy if you're not careful.

So if they're going to have "Top gear from each route" for example, unless they change the way items are designed, IT IS GUARANTEED THERE WILL BE A BETTER OPTION OVER THE OTHER, as I exampled. I do all of this games content, I try to maximize my gear. I've been in the situation where as a BRD, my best gear was CRAFTED GEAR FROM 2 PATCHES AGO and not gear dropped in the newest raid.

Basically I was 25 ILVLs behind everyone else. So no matter the intention, if people don't like to raid or want to raid, they'll do x content instead, but if it offers the same reward ilvl and better stats, guess what the people who like to raid and don't like to PvP would have to do if it happens to have stats more suited for optimization? If even ONE PIECE of tank gear from PvP lacks Parry and Skill speed, do you know how lucrative that gear is because of how virtually useless Parry and SS is to a tank? So again, not misrepresenting, it's been part of the formula for ages, you just likely never cared or noticed because you probably don't raid. Which isn't a bad thing..but coming from someone who needs a certain crit/acc/det ratio to even be useful on Savage content? I'm not going for a gun with an excess of skillspeed over a gun with an absolutely sexy amount of Crit rate..but I, like you, don't want to be "forced" into content I don't care for.

http://xivdb.com/item/14581/Prototype+Midan+Metal+Musketoon - Raid drop, has skillspeed on it, with the MCH changes this isn't too bad now but...
http://xivdb.com/item/14027/Fire+of+the+Sephirot - Would be the best if it was higher ilvl.
http://xivdb.com/item/14395/Augmented+Torrent+Musketoon - Good, but also mixed with current Savage raid, meaning you have to do both, or take an extra 7 weeks more than usual to get this alternate weapon. This is also better than the Midan gun.
http://xivdb.com/item/13230/Armageddon - Relic. If it can be customized next update it could be the best for awhile.

So again, I wasn't misrepresenting anything - Guess what you will have to do in order to get the Lore weapon compared to just..doing Savage..yet if you do Savage, you get a subpar gun overall compared to working towards your Lore Weapon.

That is what I mean by it depends HEAVILY on how SE itemizes everything.

Edited, Feb 27th 2016 8:09am by Theonehio

Hyrist 2016!

Seriously, the biggest problem now for the largest percentage of players is that the most realistically attainable high-iLevel gear comes from either tomes or Diadem -- and so far, the Diadem sucks. It's more fun to grind for tomes by doing hunts, dungeons and PvP than it is to engage in a mindless loot pinata.

Most players in this game aren't hardcore raiders who worry much (if at all) about min/maxing. What we need are more diverse types of challenging content (like Diadem could have been) that give value to higher iLevels while also providing enticing rewards.

This game needs its Sky or Dynamis -- an endgame scene where FCs can have all-comers event nights that don't require exclusionary statics.

I feel like this conversation is on a loop at this point, and I'm really losing the will to keep repeating this to the same two people over and over, so this will be the last time I repeat this point in this thread (unless something I say is taken out of context... but that never happens).

We played sat and got most of the content done in the last patch in less than a day.
Everything except Alexander since we need to have a higher I leveland beat tribe quests obviously.




Edited, Feb 29th 2016 1:25pm by Nashred

Yep. I'd have no problems with PvP if it was actually fun or the game was even designed for it. While true very specific mechanics was changed during 1.x for the future of PvP as stated in all Dev diary things, PvP in this game is just...eh. Kind of why I said until we get items with actual...design to them rather than OH LOOK 20 MORE STR! type gear, you're going to force players into content they don't want to do simply because SE may toss Det on a weapon instead of skillspeed, which automatically blows away the skillspeed weapon choice.

Since the community already seems resistant on doing content that takes more work than pressing 1-2-3 and letting the game hold your hand through it as is.

zam.com homepage no longer links to forums, in favor of comments sections for generic gaming articles. The forums are still floating in the ether if you know how to get to them, but pretty much no new blood. Just thought you folks would like to know.

After getting DRK and PLD to 60 and WAR to 58 I can safely say Paladin is my favorite tank atm. The play style is just so solid. Dark had you doing too much with too little payoff. Plus Royal Authority has such a sick animation.

Aesthetically Dark Knight is my favorite though.

That's exactly where I'm at, too.

Loved M4, and can't wait to try Sephirot Ex. I actually started a once-per-week static group, but none of us have any desire to beat our heads against the wall in Savage mode... especially considering that one person has missed each of our first couple of meetups.

We're all pumped to gear up and get into Seph Ex though, and this week we're going to get our Midas NM farming done.

All in all, 3.2 was a very well-received patch.