So I read Tovin's quarry on MMOs.
And I just never felt like asking, but I am now.
What do you like to have in a MMO?
uber graphics?
PvP/PvE/Both?
Customization?
Grouping/soloing?
Free play?
The only MMO I've payed to play was FFXI.
I enjoyed it, but have been out of the game for like 7 months due to no more money/not having a job.
I liked it because:
1) I liked the FF universe
2) Some of my favorite jobs from past FF games were in it.
3)I could play it on my ps2 and on dial-up.
4) if i got bored with a job/class combo, I could just change it. Not start another char to be a different job/class.
It isn't the only MMO I've played, but it is the only one I have really liked.
So again, what is it you all like in a MMO?
These are the things I like:
-Multi race with multi looks.
-A need to group up to level faster, do quest/missions/raids
-The ability to solo, maybe not as fast as grouping. But the option to do so.
-multi Job/classes. To me, the more the better. Helps with diversity.
- Free play is always a plus, but I don't mind paying each month. But I do agree with Tovin, they need to come up with other billing choices (for people who want to play, but might only log in 2-10times a month).
-I love customizeation (not even a word, but it is now!). It helps with that diversity and people being able to create an avatar that represents themselves.
- Forums
- Cross Site
- General Video Game Discussion
- what do you like in a MMO?
what do you like in a MMO?Follow
This is a funny one for me since i think what i want is very different to most players, certainly most WoW players.
1. Engaging gameplay, with tons of different quest styles. It would be nice if there where quests that didn't involve any combat but still required fast reflexes or quick thinking.
I really like how WoW does quest lines, and i liked EQ's ArmoUr set quests, if they could link that into tradeskilling all the better, you could get patterns as a reward and then have the choise to hunt extra stuff to make the armoUr.
2. Involved tradeskills that do not have auto sucsess but give good rewards, top end tradeskills should be Raid level and players should be able to make consumables in each tradeskill required by other to make back money and time invested.
Do NOT under any circumstance restrict players number of tradeskills,if I want to sink the time into 10 tradeskills thats my business.
3. No Forced PvP, and any PvP rewards shouldn't be such that it punishes players that do not PvP.
4. Solo and group content at Raid difficulty with raid level rewards, why i should be able to take a group of 5 and be challenged in the same way a raid party is yet end up with worse gear than a priest who mashes his heal button for 5 hours.
Long and difficult instanced Solo quests with raid level rewards shouldn't be beyond the game designers ability to build, especially when looking at class specific epic weapons and ArmoUr.
5. Classes that feel and play totally differently, this was EQ2 main problem when it came out, a Pally played like a rogue who played like a priest.... But you should be able to do group content with any mix of classes if you use different tactics.
In EQ you could do 75% of group content without a tank or healer IF the players knew how to do it. In fact my most sucsessful group ever consisted of 5 DPS classes and 1 CC because we new what we where doing, nothing flustrates me more than joining a group of 4 only to have to wait another hour looking for a tank/Healer etc.
And finally
6. FACTION FACTION FACTION!!
New questlines should open up if you work it, new items become availible and more importantly i should be able to work up any faction for any race.
I like the whole idea of being able through a tough and complicated quest to switch sides, and then grind out faction to provce to them i am really a good dark elf or evil dwarf.
The worst aspect of WoW is ally and horde not being able to communicate.
1. Engaging gameplay, with tons of different quest styles. It would be nice if there where quests that didn't involve any combat but still required fast reflexes or quick thinking.
I really like how WoW does quest lines, and i liked EQ's ArmoUr set quests, if they could link that into tradeskilling all the better, you could get patterns as a reward and then have the choise to hunt extra stuff to make the armoUr.
2. Involved tradeskills that do not have auto sucsess but give good rewards, top end tradeskills should be Raid level and players should be able to make consumables in each tradeskill required by other to make back money and time invested.
Do NOT under any circumstance restrict players number of tradeskills,if I want to sink the time into 10 tradeskills thats my business.
3. No Forced PvP, and any PvP rewards shouldn't be such that it punishes players that do not PvP.
4. Solo and group content at Raid difficulty with raid level rewards, why i should be able to take a group of 5 and be challenged in the same way a raid party is yet end up with worse gear than a priest who mashes his heal button for 5 hours.
Long and difficult instanced Solo quests with raid level rewards shouldn't be beyond the game designers ability to build, especially when looking at class specific epic weapons and ArmoUr.
5. Classes that feel and play totally differently, this was EQ2 main problem when it came out, a Pally played like a rogue who played like a priest.... But you should be able to do group content with any mix of classes if you use different tactics.
In EQ you could do 75% of group content without a tank or healer IF the players knew how to do it. In fact my most sucsessful group ever consisted of 5 DPS classes and 1 CC because we new what we where doing, nothing flustrates me more than joining a group of 4 only to have to wait another hour looking for a tank/Healer etc.
And finally
6. FACTION FACTION FACTION!!
New questlines should open up if you work it, new items become availible and more importantly i should be able to work up any faction for any race.
I like the whole idea of being able through a tough and complicated quest to switch sides, and then grind out faction to provce to them i am really a good dark elf or evil dwarf.
The worst aspect of WoW is ally and horde not being able to communicate.
I'm gonna stick with a good friends take on this from 2001.
As she quotes, there's obviously more....but those are the definite building blocks that MUST be included in development from day one, imo.
[Edit: Oh, and rateups for mentioning me *blushes*]
Edited, Feb 15th 2008 1:11pm by tovin
Quote:
Chat: An obvious one, but sometimes not always well-thought out. Take AC for example -- great game, horrible chat system. If I were to go hunting with a friend, and I needed a heal, I'd have to take myself out of combat, hit the enter key, type my message, hit enter to send the message, and hope that he isn't being spamed by messages from his own battle with a monster. Even in town during downtime, the chat system is horrible. It's like being sucked into one nasty IRC channel from hell where every player and their mother, father, sister, cousins, aunts, uncles and grandparents are having the world's worst family reunion. Or, more succinctly, AC's chat system is like running your fingernails down a chalkboard. I hate it. Initially I thought it was because I was so used to UO's over-the-head chat style. However, after a year and a half of playing AC, I can assure you, that assumption was quite wrong. A well-developed chat system that does not interfere with most functions of gameplay should be a number one priority for game developers.
Downtime Areas: Raph's essay, which I mentioned above, has some really great information regarding developing downtime areas. Players need places and opportunities to unwind after their great adventures. They need places to offload their wares, and trade with other players safely. However, some downtime areas, usually dealing with travel, are horrific. I've heard that traveling by boat between continents in EverQuest is about as enjoyable as trying to get to grandmaster status as a beggar in UO. And speaking of UO, remember the old city moongates, where you'd spend 30 minutes trying to get from one city to the next, and everyone gathered around complaining about it? At least I've made a friend or two that way, but at what cost? Developers should make sure that downtime areas are worth the cost of admission. If you make it tedious, chances are, you'll find your player base avoiding them at all costs.
Leadership Opportunities: Guilds are great for community building. Not only do they provide players with the opportunity to unite for a common goal, but in most cases, players can delegate leadership roles amongst themselves. In UO you can elect a guildmaster and can artificially designate lieutenants. UO also has factions, where players can be elected into positions of power by popular vote, and can have a rank in the overall faction structure. In AC, you can become a vassal to a patron who can then teach you the ropes of the game, or travel with you to new locations. Enhanced leadership opportunities allow players to work together for a common cause.
Ongoing Content / New Items: With the addition of new items and/or new storylines, such as a great evil monster and his clan attacking cities, players will have the opportunity to band together to fight, or support, the evil. New items won't just give players something new to own. It will give them the opportunity to seek out items and information from other players. Games such as AC, EQ and UO are successful because they have consistently provided players new areas to explore, new items to uncover, and new monsters to fight. Socialization in most games almost always increases when new content and items are introduced in the game.
This is just the tip of the mountain of successful community building in online games. I don't envy any game designer who has to create the systems by which we all socialize. And I sympathize with any that lose sleep considering the myriad possibilities. But, if you want to build a successful product, you need to build exceptional community building tools. Gameplay is not enough. It's as simple as that.
Downtime Areas: Raph's essay, which I mentioned above, has some really great information regarding developing downtime areas. Players need places and opportunities to unwind after their great adventures. They need places to offload their wares, and trade with other players safely. However, some downtime areas, usually dealing with travel, are horrific. I've heard that traveling by boat between continents in EverQuest is about as enjoyable as trying to get to grandmaster status as a beggar in UO. And speaking of UO, remember the old city moongates, where you'd spend 30 minutes trying to get from one city to the next, and everyone gathered around complaining about it? At least I've made a friend or two that way, but at what cost? Developers should make sure that downtime areas are worth the cost of admission. If you make it tedious, chances are, you'll find your player base avoiding them at all costs.
Leadership Opportunities: Guilds are great for community building. Not only do they provide players with the opportunity to unite for a common goal, but in most cases, players can delegate leadership roles amongst themselves. In UO you can elect a guildmaster and can artificially designate lieutenants. UO also has factions, where players can be elected into positions of power by popular vote, and can have a rank in the overall faction structure. In AC, you can become a vassal to a patron who can then teach you the ropes of the game, or travel with you to new locations. Enhanced leadership opportunities allow players to work together for a common cause.
Ongoing Content / New Items: With the addition of new items and/or new storylines, such as a great evil monster and his clan attacking cities, players will have the opportunity to band together to fight, or support, the evil. New items won't just give players something new to own. It will give them the opportunity to seek out items and information from other players. Games such as AC, EQ and UO are successful because they have consistently provided players new areas to explore, new items to uncover, and new monsters to fight. Socialization in most games almost always increases when new content and items are introduced in the game.
This is just the tip of the mountain of successful community building in online games. I don't envy any game designer who has to create the systems by which we all socialize. And I sympathize with any that lose sleep considering the myriad possibilities. But, if you want to build a successful product, you need to build exceptional community building tools. Gameplay is not enough. It's as simple as that.
As she quotes, there's obviously more....but those are the definite building blocks that MUST be included in development from day one, imo.
[Edit: Oh, and rateups for mentioning me *blushes*]
Edited, Feb 15th 2008 1:11pm by tovin
First I'd like to address Tovin's original article then my own views. Tovin is not goign to like what I have to say/ :(
Most any sort of pay per time plan is a non optimal plan for MMOs.
For simplicity most MMOs use a one price system, with occasional special launch offers. They have few customers so price segmentation isn't usually viable option for them. This means whatever pricing plan they select they must select it for all customers.
One time fees for unlimited access simply pleases the most customers while gaining the most profit for the producer. Most people dislike pay per time plans in cable television, in internet, and phone usage, it's not an anomaly that many dislike like it in MMO.
Unfortunately this means a few users, like Tovin, are shafted, and must choose between paying $15 for something they aren't going to play as often, or not playing at all. Neither is a great choice for such a user, but it still doesn't make any sense for the company to change.
There have been a few games with player police or "mentor," systems and they're simply impractical on a large scale. Companies simply do not have the resources to implement a large player police system and keep it free from abuse while maintaining a constant price for the game.
And honestly most player crimes are minor inconveniences or players have been the ability to deal with the problem themselves.
You can't ban or penalize (systematically) players for being rude or bad at the game. And mostly this is something that players can deal with themselves. If someone bothers me I'm able to deal with it myself, and do so effectively.
Sure putting my pants on in the morning is a minor inconvenience, but it really isn't worth paying someone extra to do it for me.
The problem with grinds is that in order to be able to effectively find a group there needs to be a plentiful supply of people willing to grind, which typically implies grinding being the most efficient or only form of leveling up.
Personally I actually do enjoy the occasional grind as well, but I have to admit in general it is a bad system.
Typical quest oriented game now still involve grind or allow for mix quest grinding which although often solo does not usually prohibit group grinding.
Overall while I would agree my enthusiasm for MMOs has faded I doubt it has anything to do with the games being produce and more to do with the personal novelty wearing off for me. I also believe that while you may find the sort of changes you've suggested for MMOS favorable, I believe many others (myself included) would consider it a step backwards for the genre.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
1. Classes need to be able to fill multiple roles and multiple classes should be able to fill the same role. Having a tank class or a healer class, where that is the one thing the class does well and especially when they are the only class who can do it, is a horrible system. It pigeonholes players, creates huge party wait times, and generally oversimplifies the game.
Rather than defining a class by it's role classes should be defined by the variety of roles they can fill and how they fill them. So you could have Tank&Healer class and a Damage&Healer class. They'd be furth separated by the way in which they perform the same overlapping role, maybe one is an HoT and direct healer and the other prevents damage by having absorbing shields or raising armor/avoidance.
This creates distinguishable classes that allow a player much greater flexibility.
2. Variety of PvE and PvP. Players like options. There should be a variety of ways for players to level and quest in PvE and plethora of means for players to engage in PvP (instance fights, open world, duels, objective based, sieges). Everyone should be able to find something enjoyable in each sphere of the game, and when they get bored of it they should have something else to switch to.
3. Customization of a character while still maintaining identity. I emphasize combat abilities over appearance, but the same applies to both. Mostly this is simpyl taking the implementation of WoW's talent trees to a greater degree.
Players should be able to have a great degree of control over their character's style, directing its growth how they see fit. An example would be WoW's shaman. You can be a melee shaman, damage caster shaman, or healing shaman. However in doing this it is important that there be a clear differentiation between these choices, possibly through dividing up the pool of choices into several separate pools (talent trees). A player should be able to identify themselves as a "Gun-using cowboy," and be able to tell that the other guy is a "Horse-using cowboy." The distinction should be clear.
4. Non-penanlized decisions. Essential it should not be possible to mess up your character and not be able to fix it. Anything a player gains while leveling, stat points, ability points, skills, talents, whatever, should be able to be reset and reassigned if they player so desires. It may be somewhat difficult or expensive, but it should at least be possible.
I'd even extend this to race. Either races should be well balance from release or a player should be able to even reselect their race.
A player should never feel the need to delete their character in order to remake it with a slight alteration.
Tovin wrote:
Billing me $15 a month, when I play 2 hours due to family, work, house issues, or just plain being over-scheduled is stupid. I know it works for the MMO companies, but the time for them making a buck off of people's being busy is over. Get with it folks, and find a billing schedule that works for me, because right now, none of you are getting my money, and that doesn't work for any of us!
If someone could come up with a gym-type billing, $2-4 per sign-in for 24 or 48 hours, I'd probably do it. A great gaming weekend followed by nothing for 2 weeks fits perfectly into my schedule. I know that micro-transaction games incorporate this type of schedule free billing, but other than Fiesta Online, I've yet to see one that is translated well, offers decent customer service, and in game events. How sad is that, and what a testament to Outspark and their business model!
If someone could come up with a gym-type billing, $2-4 per sign-in for 24 or 48 hours, I'd probably do it. A great gaming weekend followed by nothing for 2 weeks fits perfectly into my schedule. I know that micro-transaction games incorporate this type of schedule free billing, but other than Fiesta Online, I've yet to see one that is translated well, offers decent customer service, and in game events. How sad is that, and what a testament to Outspark and their business model!
Most any sort of pay per time plan is a non optimal plan for MMOs.
For simplicity most MMOs use a one price system, with occasional special launch offers. They have few customers so price segmentation isn't usually viable option for them. This means whatever pricing plan they select they must select it for all customers.
One time fees for unlimited access simply pleases the most customers while gaining the most profit for the producer. Most people dislike pay per time plans in cable television, in internet, and phone usage, it's not an anomaly that many dislike like it in MMO.
Unfortunately this means a few users, like Tovin, are shafted, and must choose between paying $15 for something they aren't going to play as often, or not playing at all. Neither is a great choice for such a user, but it still doesn't make any sense for the company to change.
Tovin wrote:
Not giving players a chance to police others in game has led to zero teamwork, servers where no one looks out for each other, and in general, disastrous server communities. I'm not advocating an instant crackdown system, but any community that openly allows jerks and griefers to continually advance at the same rate as those who work together, get along, and share without giving other players the chance to halt or severely stall their progression, well that system just blows.
Whether it be through a not grouping agreement with your guild or alliance, blacklisting them from raids, equipment rolls, or events, accepting people's money because everyone's $15 spends just the same as another, without allowing any enforcement for generally accepted social rules, works on paper but not in a community.
Whether it be through a not grouping agreement with your guild or alliance, blacklisting them from raids, equipment rolls, or events, accepting people's money because everyone's $15 spends just the same as another, without allowing any enforcement for generally accepted social rules, works on paper but not in a community.
There have been a few games with player police or "mentor," systems and they're simply impractical on a large scale. Companies simply do not have the resources to implement a large player police system and keep it free from abuse while maintaining a constant price for the game.
And honestly most player crimes are minor inconveniences or players have been the ability to deal with the problem themselves.
You can't ban or penalize (systematically) players for being rude or bad at the game. And mostly this is something that players can deal with themselves. If someone bothers me I'm able to deal with it myself, and do so effectively.
Sure putting my pants on in the morning is a minor inconvenience, but it really isn't worth paying someone extra to do it for me.
Tovin wrote:
The gathering places have been let go, in lieu of questing systems that do not encourage social aspects. Remember when everyone level 20-25 went to the same spot because that's where you would find the groups, and good mobs to kill? Well someone ******* about "the grind" and now those days are gone, and the knowledge of how to get that same social interaction, hasn’t been replaced. Finding groups for what you need to accomplish has become quest-centric. Lost in the good old days is the hope of ever finding a pick-up group that knew what you wanted to do, stuck you on a list to join, and then you chatted with them while you waited.
Questing is fine. The systems they encourage are fine. But the social aspects of finding a group near constantly spawning mobs, killing with them for as long as you had time, and then letting the next person on the list take your place when you left, are lost. Learning what players not to group with, being forced to share spawns, loot, and wipes with these people....that's what made the social aspect so much fun! So why did someone feel the need to completely wipe that away, instead of complementing the questing system with it?
Questing is fine. The systems they encourage are fine. But the social aspects of finding a group near constantly spawning mobs, killing with them for as long as you had time, and then letting the next person on the list take your place when you left, are lost. Learning what players not to group with, being forced to share spawns, loot, and wipes with these people....that's what made the social aspect so much fun! So why did someone feel the need to completely wipe that away, instead of complementing the questing system with it?
The problem with grinds is that in order to be able to effectively find a group there needs to be a plentiful supply of people willing to grind, which typically implies grinding being the most efficient or only form of leveling up.
Personally I actually do enjoy the occasional grind as well, but I have to admit in general it is a bad system.
Typical quest oriented game now still involve grind or allow for mix quest grinding which although often solo does not usually prohibit group grinding.
Overall while I would agree my enthusiasm for MMOs has faded I doubt it has anything to do with the games being produce and more to do with the personal novelty wearing off for me. I also believe that while you may find the sort of changes you've suggested for MMOS favorable, I believe many others (myself included) would consider it a step backwards for the genre.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
1. Classes need to be able to fill multiple roles and multiple classes should be able to fill the same role. Having a tank class or a healer class, where that is the one thing the class does well and especially when they are the only class who can do it, is a horrible system. It pigeonholes players, creates huge party wait times, and generally oversimplifies the game.
Rather than defining a class by it's role classes should be defined by the variety of roles they can fill and how they fill them. So you could have Tank&Healer class and a Damage&Healer class. They'd be furth separated by the way in which they perform the same overlapping role, maybe one is an HoT and direct healer and the other prevents damage by having absorbing shields or raising armor/avoidance.
This creates distinguishable classes that allow a player much greater flexibility.
2. Variety of PvE and PvP. Players like options. There should be a variety of ways for players to level and quest in PvE and plethora of means for players to engage in PvP (instance fights, open world, duels, objective based, sieges). Everyone should be able to find something enjoyable in each sphere of the game, and when they get bored of it they should have something else to switch to.
3. Customization of a character while still maintaining identity. I emphasize combat abilities over appearance, but the same applies to both. Mostly this is simpyl taking the implementation of WoW's talent trees to a greater degree.
Players should be able to have a great degree of control over their character's style, directing its growth how they see fit. An example would be WoW's shaman. You can be a melee shaman, damage caster shaman, or healing shaman. However in doing this it is important that there be a clear differentiation between these choices, possibly through dividing up the pool of choices into several separate pools (talent trees). A player should be able to identify themselves as a "Gun-using cowboy," and be able to tell that the other guy is a "Horse-using cowboy." The distinction should be clear.
4. Non-penanlized decisions. Essential it should not be possible to mess up your character and not be able to fix it. Anything a player gains while leveling, stat points, ability points, skills, talents, whatever, should be able to be reset and reassigned if they player so desires. It may be somewhat difficult or expensive, but it should at least be possible.
I'd even extend this to race. Either races should be well balance from release or a player should be able to even reselect their race.
A player should never feel the need to delete their character in order to remake it with a slight alteration.
I don't know why you think I don't like your comments...I think we're on the same page actually. We just see the answers differently!
For MMO pricing, you're right! I don't have to like it though!
There have been a few games with player police or "mentor," systems and they're simply impractical on a large scale. Companies simply do not have the resources to implement a large player police system and keep it free from abuse while maintaining a constant price for the game.
And honestly most player crimes are minor inconveniences or players have been the ability to deal with the problem themselves.
You can't ban or penalize (systematically) players for being rude or bad at the game. And mostly this is something that players can deal with themselves. If someone bothers me I'm able to deal with it myself, and do so effectively.
I think any "policing" such as you refer to, is impractical, and more so, ridiculous, so we agree! However, I think that you MUST give socially viable ways to shun those who decide to act in a manner which is unacceptable. I gave some examples (guild or alliance, blacklisting them from raids, equipment rolls, or events, accepting people's money because everyone's $15 spends just the same as another, without allowing any enforcement for generally accepted social rules, works on paper but not in a community.) where PLAYERS control. This is, after all, a majority rules type of thing. I may not like it, but again, that's just the way it is.
The problem with grinds is that in order to be able to effectively find a group there needs to be a plentiful supply of people willing to grind, which typically implies grinding being the most efficient or only form of leveling up.
Personally I actually do enjoy the occasional grind as well, but I have to admit in general it is a bad system.
Typical quest oriented game now still involve grind or allow for mix quest grinding which although often solo does not usually prohibit group grinding.
We agree! Grinding, combined with other options leads to a larger happier customer base! What's wrong with that?
Overall while I would agree my enthusiasm for MMOs has faded I doubt it has anything to do with the games being produce and more to do with the personal novelty wearing off for me. I also believe that while you may find the sort of changes you've suggested for MMOS favorable, I believe many others (myself included) would consider it a step backwards for the genre.
I'm not asking for the genre to change overnight! Maybe just a few tweaks, little by little!
_____________________________________________________________________________________
1. Classes need to be able to fill multiple roles and multiple classes should be able to fill the same role. Having a tank class or a healer class, where that is the one thing the class does well and especially when they are the only class who can do it, is a horrible system. It pigeonholes players, creates huge party wait times, and generally oversimplifies the game.
/signed....and yet. EQ did it well, for the first 4 years at least.
2. Variety of PvE and PvP. Players like options. There should be a variety of ways for players to level and quest in PvE and plethora of means for players to engage in PvP (instance fights, open world, duels, objective based, sieges). Everyone should be able to find something enjoyable in each sphere of the game, and when they get bored of it they should have something else to switch to.
/signed!
3. Customization of a character while still maintaining identity. I emphasize combat abilities over appearance, but the same applies to both. Mostly this is simpyl taking the implementation of WoW's talent trees to a greater degree.
I would also like to note here that LotRO's addition of wearing whatever you want while maintaining another look that is more desirable (EVERY option on/off for appearances) is disgusting! Sometimes, it's nice to see someone chose a jaunty cap over +3 dex! Granted not during a raid, but /kick is there for a reason! :)
4. Non-penanlized decisions. Essential it should not be possible to mess up your character and not be able to fix it. Anything a player gains while leveling, stat points, ability points, skills, talents, whatever, should be able to be reset and reassigned if they player so desires. It may be somewhat difficult or expensive, but it should at least be possible.
Another aside here. You should be able to change it, but there must be some sort of price or penalty. DAoC does a good job in this, as well as giving out free respecs when changes are made to each class/race that require respeccing.
I'd even extend this to race. Either races should be well balance from release or a player should be able to even reselect their race. Let's not get crazy! :p This is slightly silly.
A player should never feel the need to delete their character in order to remake it with a slight alteration.
pfft! A player should feel an attachment to their characters that requires them to think twice on changes.
Other then that - I think we'd both agree that changes need to made, though not sweeping, not all-inclusive, and certainly not to all games at the same time, with the same result! Having so many MMO's with so many different styles is one of the awesome things about our genre!
/salutes Allegory
For MMO pricing, you're right! I don't have to like it though!
Allegory wrote:
There have been a few games with player police or "mentor," systems and they're simply impractical on a large scale. Companies simply do not have the resources to implement a large player police system and keep it free from abuse while maintaining a constant price for the game.
And honestly most player crimes are minor inconveniences or players have been the ability to deal with the problem themselves.
You can't ban or penalize (systematically) players for being rude or bad at the game. And mostly this is something that players can deal with themselves. If someone bothers me I'm able to deal with it myself, and do so effectively.
I think any "policing" such as you refer to, is impractical, and more so, ridiculous, so we agree! However, I think that you MUST give socially viable ways to shun those who decide to act in a manner which is unacceptable. I gave some examples (guild or alliance, blacklisting them from raids, equipment rolls, or events, accepting people's money because everyone's $15 spends just the same as another, without allowing any enforcement for generally accepted social rules, works on paper but not in a community.) where PLAYERS control. This is, after all, a majority rules type of thing. I may not like it, but again, that's just the way it is.
Allegory wrote:
The problem with grinds is that in order to be able to effectively find a group there needs to be a plentiful supply of people willing to grind, which typically implies grinding being the most efficient or only form of leveling up.
Personally I actually do enjoy the occasional grind as well, but I have to admit in general it is a bad system.
Typical quest oriented game now still involve grind or allow for mix quest grinding which although often solo does not usually prohibit group grinding.
We agree! Grinding, combined with other options leads to a larger happier customer base! What's wrong with that?
Allegory wrote:
Overall while I would agree my enthusiasm for MMOs has faded I doubt it has anything to do with the games being produce and more to do with the personal novelty wearing off for me. I also believe that while you may find the sort of changes you've suggested for MMOS favorable, I believe many others (myself included) would consider it a step backwards for the genre.
I'm not asking for the genre to change overnight! Maybe just a few tweaks, little by little!
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Allegory wrote:
1. Classes need to be able to fill multiple roles and multiple classes should be able to fill the same role. Having a tank class or a healer class, where that is the one thing the class does well and especially when they are the only class who can do it, is a horrible system. It pigeonholes players, creates huge party wait times, and generally oversimplifies the game.
/signed....and yet. EQ did it well, for the first 4 years at least.
Allegory wrote:
2. Variety of PvE and PvP. Players like options. There should be a variety of ways for players to level and quest in PvE and plethora of means for players to engage in PvP (instance fights, open world, duels, objective based, sieges). Everyone should be able to find something enjoyable in each sphere of the game, and when they get bored of it they should have something else to switch to.
/signed!
Allegory wrote:
3. Customization of a character while still maintaining identity. I emphasize combat abilities over appearance, but the same applies to both. Mostly this is simpyl taking the implementation of WoW's talent trees to a greater degree.
I would also like to note here that LotRO's addition of wearing whatever you want while maintaining another look that is more desirable (EVERY option on/off for appearances) is disgusting! Sometimes, it's nice to see someone chose a jaunty cap over +3 dex! Granted not during a raid, but /kick is there for a reason! :)
Allegory wrote:
4. Non-penanlized decisions. Essential it should not be possible to mess up your character and not be able to fix it. Anything a player gains while leveling, stat points, ability points, skills, talents, whatever, should be able to be reset and reassigned if they player so desires. It may be somewhat difficult or expensive, but it should at least be possible.
Another aside here. You should be able to change it, but there must be some sort of price or penalty. DAoC does a good job in this, as well as giving out free respecs when changes are made to each class/race that require respeccing.
Allegory wrote:
I'd even extend this to race. Either races should be well balance from release or a player should be able to even reselect their race.
Allegory wrote:
A player should never feel the need to delete their character in order to remake it with a slight alteration.
pfft! A player should feel an attachment to their characters that requires them to think twice on changes.
Other then that - I think we'd both agree that changes need to made, though not sweeping, not all-inclusive, and certainly not to all games at the same time, with the same result! Having so many MMO's with so many different styles is one of the awesome things about our genre!
/salutes Allegory
I'll try to keep it short, as book writing has been covered in this thread already.
1.) The world has to be engaging from a story perspective. You can't just crap out some "already famous Intellectual property" (IE Star Wars) and expect me to love a half ***** job.
2.) Grouping and Soloing have to be viable, but soloing especially at lower levels. I don't want to be forced to group with noobs especially if i'm on my 8th alt, so the game has to allow reasonable advancement through solo content, at least up until the top 20% of the levels where completing group/raid content can be required.
3.) The crafting system needs to not suck. I know allot of people like the super simple (al la WoW) crafting, but I actually like crafting to be hard to do, and have customizable rewards that are actually valuable.
4.) I prefer to have to pay a monthly subscription for unlimited time access.
1.) The world has to be engaging from a story perspective. You can't just crap out some "already famous Intellectual property" (IE Star Wars) and expect me to love a half ***** job.
2.) Grouping and Soloing have to be viable, but soloing especially at lower levels. I don't want to be forced to group with noobs especially if i'm on my 8th alt, so the game has to allow reasonable advancement through solo content, at least up until the top 20% of the levels where completing group/raid content can be required.
3.) The crafting system needs to not suck. I know allot of people like the super simple (al la WoW) crafting, but I actually like crafting to be hard to do, and have customizable rewards that are actually valuable.
4.) I prefer to have to pay a monthly subscription for unlimited time access.
psylitar wrote:
I'll try to keep it short, as book writing has been covered in this thread already.
this made me lol.
So i read the replies and am glad to see other's views.
Here are the things I agree with thus far:
Baron von tarv wrote:
6. FACTION FACTION FACTION!!
New questlines should open up if you work it, new items become availible and more importantly i should be able to work up any faction for any race.
I like the whole idea of being able through a tough and complicated quest to switch sides, and then grind out faction to provce to them i am really a good dark elf or evil dwarf.
The worst aspect of WoW is ally and horde not being able to communicate.
New questlines should open up if you work it, new items become availible and more importantly i should be able to work up any faction for any race.
I like the whole idea of being able through a tough and complicated quest to switch sides, and then grind out faction to provce to them i am really a good dark elf or evil dwarf.
The worst aspect of WoW is ally and horde not being able to communicate.
I like this idea. Being able to pick your race, then decide if it is an Evil Human, or a "good" goblin.
I've yet to play WoW, but have looked into it. And I do think it is odd that both sides can't communicate in actual typed words. I understand why they did it, but there should have been a "neutral" chat.
Allegory wrote:
1. Classes need to be able to fill multiple roles and multiple classes should be able to fill the same role. Having a tank class or a healer class, where that is the one thing the class does well and especially when they are the only class who can do it, is a horrible system. It pigeonholes players, creates huge party wait times, and generally oversimplifies the game.
Rather than defining a class by it's role classes should be defined by the variety of roles they can fill and how they fill them. So you could have Tank&Healer class and a Damage&Healer class. They'd be furth separated by the way in which they perform the same overlapping role, maybe one is an HoT and direct healer and the other prevents damage by having absorbing shields or raising armor/avoidance.
This creates distinguishable classes that allow a player much greater flexibility.
Rather than defining a class by it's role classes should be defined by the variety of roles they can fill and how they fill them. So you could have Tank&Healer class and a Damage&Healer class. They'd be furth separated by the way in which they perform the same overlapping role, maybe one is an HoT and direct healer and the other prevents damage by having absorbing shields or raising armor/avoidance.
This creates distinguishable classes that allow a player much greater flexibility.
This made me go "hmm, wonder why they never did this"
I know it has been done. But why not more so in todays games?
It would be great to have a tank who is also the groups main or secondary healer. It would allow "odd" group/party setups that can still function well.
Tovin wrote:
Allegory wrote:
4. Non-penanlized decisions. Essential it should not be possible to mess up your character and not be able to fix it. Anything a player gains while leveling, stat points, ability points, skills, talents, whatever, should be able to be reset and reassigned if they player so desires. It may be somewhat difficult or expensive, but it should at least be possible.
Another aside here. You should be able to change it, but there must be some sort of price or penalty. DAoC does a good job in this, as well as giving out free respecs when changes are made to each class/race that require respeccing.
4. Non-penanlized decisions. Essential it should not be possible to mess up your character and not be able to fix it. Anything a player gains while leveling, stat points, ability points, skills, talents, whatever, should be able to be reset and reassigned if they player so desires. It may be somewhat difficult or expensive, but it should at least be possible.
Another aside here. You should be able to change it, but there must be some sort of price or penalty. DAoC does a good job in this, as well as giving out free respecs when changes are made to each class/race that require respeccing.
Agree as well. There should be a way to not lose what you already put time in to gain.
But it should take a semi-hard quest and/or a fair amount of money.
FFXI has merits once you reach 75. You can do what ever you wish with the merit (1 merit takes 10k exp), but if you goof up you are either stuck with what you chose or you can get your merits wiped. But can then earn them again (if i remember right).
It takes a good party around 15-30min to gain 10k exp.
part of Allegory's number 4 wrote:
I'd even extend this to race. Either races should be well balance from release or a player should be able to even reselect their race.
I kind of do like the idea of some races being able to do some jobs better then others. But I don't think a race should be limited to only certain jobs.
The part I enjoyed about being a Galka in FFXI was taking up Jobs that were not the "normal" Galkan jobs; ie: any of the mages (they had bad MP pool..well actual the worst).
As for the race reselect. Maybe a one time deal. There were times I did wish I wasn't a Galka, but it was really the race for me.
Just to be able to change because you no longer like the way you look could get confusing for other peeps -.-
If only i had the money, I think i would enjoy making a MMO that most people would like -.^
[i][sm]Edited, Feb 15th 2008 9:53pm by ***********************
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