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I can lose a few for you guys

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I have most of you added already.

Edited, Mar 20th 2008 1:46am by baelnic

Allegory

I can see what you mean about stock vs time but I still think items should be allowed despite they're randomness. Calling items an additional feature isn't really fair. Items are a default part of the game and they've been in every mode in every game. Yes, items add a random element, but part of the skill is being able to adapt.

I do think the broken and more random items should be left out for tournament purposes though. No smash balls, no assist trophies/pokeballs, no dragoon, no speed or size changing items, etc.




On a somewhat unrelated note, did Nintendo leave the suicide point adjuster rule out of this game, or is it just in some menu I haven't unlocked yet? Suicides -2 was one of the best rules in melee.

Sure, I'll participate. I'll get schooled, but it'll be in the name of good fun. My numbers are in the other thread.

I would prefer items over no items, but then again I'm the guy who thinks we should allow Smash Balls.

Well, in my opinion you have normal smashes and some underpowered smashes. For instance, you mentioned how Donkey Kong's smash is useless. Well, it is. That would fall under "underpowered". You also mentioned how Marth's is overpowered. This one I disagree on. From what I've seen, it's entirely possible to be directly in line with it when he initiates and to have jumped out of the way by the time he reaches you. I usually have to catch someone recovering in order to get it to land. Sonic and Pikachu are a ***** to control. Kirby's, while difficult to dodge, really doesn't hurt all that much in the long run, especially if food items and the like that usually pop out are turned off.

I don't know, I just don't think there are any final smashes that are truly overpowered. Well... until you get a Jigglypuff on Final Destination.

most final smashes are easy enough to avoid if you play intelligently, nasty ones are like, luigi's or peach's, which if you get caught in, you're basically *******

the lolworthy one:
R.O.B.: look at my foot long laser!!! i make you got damaged, lawl!

the heavy beam ones like Lucario and samus are nasty as **** if you get caught, but not difficult to avoid, lucario's for example, moves really slow

close range grab types like Ike or link are also easy enough to dodge of you see it coming. so are big, one directional ones like Mario and Ganon.

depending on the stage, the transformations can be a *****, namely the landmasters or bowser. they're nasty in the small stages, but big stages like hyrule temple aren't hard to avoid them in.

Pikachu and Sonic are hard as **** to control, and avoiding them isn't to difficult., and the army ones like pit and dedede are just a joke, really

the only nasty ones are the area effecting ones. Luigi's and Peach's are good examples. in both of them, you're totally incapacitated and at the user's mercy.
olimar's too, but not as much.

Mr. Game & Watch's is good in Flat Zone 2... That's about the only place I've seen it actually kill someone.

I could say a lot more, but I'm tired. I'll just throw out there that I see smashes in three lights, Automatic, Semi-Automatic, and Manual. (Automatic as in Olimar's, Peach's, Ness's, Lucas's, and it's pretty easy to see why. Semi-Auto as in Zelda/Sheik's, Marth's, Ike's, Jigglypuffs, etc, as in there is more strategy to making the final smash work, but after you use them, most of the work is already done or completely done. Manual as in Pikachu's, Sonic's, Bowser's, Snake's, Wolf/Fox/Falco, etc, as in you can use it, but then all the work has to be done by you.) There could be a third category called broken, where I'd put DK and MG&W under... Maybe a couple others. But yeah... Final Smash's are fun.

I want to first say I'm ok with whatever Kayne decides the format should be. I'm only arguing to make a point, not for the rules of the tournament.

Not really. Not anymore skill than it takes to adapt to wild cards in Poker. You don't adapt to the invincibility star, you simply abuse it. You don't adapt to exploding barrels that spawn in the middle of your attack, they're completely random. You don't attack to an easy 100-200% fan damage, you simply take it.

It's easy to pick up items, you just press a. It's easy to use most items, you either run into the opponent (curry or hammer) or you throw/shoot it at him (the guns, and most any item can be thrown usefully).

Items are a dice roll. It's like playing a basketball game, and then stopping every five minutes to roll a die, whoever rolls higher gets 10 bonus points.

Not really. Only the smashes where a player has no control (such as d3's or ness/lucas) are really avoidable. Most of the others are not.

You can't dodge them, but you can be missed. What I mean by this is that while technically someone can use a final smash and you not be hit, it has very little to do with you dodging well and entirely to do with your opponent simply missing. Being hit with a final smash is entirely out of your control, hopefully your opponent is just terrible at using it. And that's the problem with final smashes.

All the final smashes you mentioned Jinte, like Lucario's, Sonic's, all of the player controlled ones, they are undodgeable. Lucario's beam moves slowly, but you can start the beam anywhere within a 60 degree angle below him and then move it around from there. This means you can hit whichever side your opponent runs to. One cannot dodge or roll through it. I think pit might be able to avoid it by using all his jumps and up^, but I've never seen someone do it successfully. Sonic's and Pikachu are fast enough that you cannot dodge or avoid them, the only way for you to not get hit is for the user to be really terrible at controlling them, but you cannot dodge.

Additionally the smash balls themselves are imbalanced for many characters. It takes 3-4 fairs from metaknight to break a smash ball, each knocking it away from him, whereas other characters like Snake can one hit the smash ball.

No items are competitive. They all detract from the core gameplay. Essential it turns a brawl into a scavenger hunt. The more items are included the closer games are brought to a 50% win chance for each player, because victories become more based on random elements.

Items can be fun, and there is nothing wrong with playing with them. But a game won through picking up a golden hammer that spawned right next to you doesn't reflect player ability.

Edited, Mar 21st 2008 12:17pm by Allegory

After last nights battle where I (Lucario) got the smash ball 6 times in one match hes correct. If the player can control it, its going to be hard to dodge.

FYI The following people could avoid lucarios laser I believe...

PIT: His ridiculous ^B
Rob: His ridiculous ^B
Shiek: Her ^B is a teleport so she could teleport through it.
Kirby: His normal jump
Snake: ^B
And a few others. Those 5 for sure could easily dodge it.

Haha, this reminds of the old days of simulation leagues between friends (Managing teams and the like). Anyways sign me up I'm always looking for a way to get better.

4553-9738-0511

Also on right now if anyones looking for a few rounds.

We all know what spamming is. The same dumb move over and over like pikachus big thunder bolt.

Personally since I play lucario I play agressively. Most Lucario players play a good defensive game, so I like to be a bit different. I've learned not to turtle but to just block correctly and sidestep when need be. THe bonus for me being aggressive with Lucario is he takes more damage and im hurting the opponent more.

Some characters play better defensive then offensive and vice vertha.

Spamming is exactly as it sounds. Repeatedly using the same move. It occurs most common with ranged attacks. An example could be Pit's arrows.

Turtling ts bunkering down and being shield intensive. It involves waiting for your opponent to make a mistake and taking advantage of it. An example would be high usage of shield grabbing failed aerials.

You didn't asked, but I thought I'd mention camping. Camping is a form of turtling, repeatedly attacking the space around around you with moves to prevent an opponent from closing in for an easy attack. Marth's nair or fair spams are a good example.

All of these are perfectly viable strategies. None of these are "cheap," tactics as some players would call them. They are all viable and legitimate tactics. All of these strategies may be countered or dealt with by an opponent. You can dodge ranged spams, time attacks against campers, and grab or use spacing against turtlers.

So, any news on this thing? I'm still interested, just waiting to hear something...

We can start up another one.

I don't have time today but I'll post up some stuff tomorrow.

We'll start next Monday and have 4 days to complete a round. That way everyone can get games in.