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#27 Nov 09 2009 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
the fact that a PS3 is cheaper than a 360 and doesn't have a failure rate that leaves you without a working system half the time.


The article I was looking for when I found the Netflix one mentioned that 25% of all people who purchased an XBox 360 dealt with a RROD twice or more. That's mostly why I was looking for it.


Well, my failure statement was obviously an exaggeration, but at least when you buy a ps3 it being sent in for repairs isn't something that can be expected.
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#28 Nov 09 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Well, my failure statement was obviously an exaggeration,

Not as I recall the stats. The failure rate was somewhere up in the 40%+ range.
#29 Nov 09 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Well, my failure statement was obviously an exaggeration,

Not as I recall the stats. The failure rate was somewhere up in the 40%+ range.



Yea it was damn near 50%.


http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/101/1014486p1.html
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#30 Nov 09 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Exaggerations can be small too. I didn't say hyperbole!
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#31 Nov 09 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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And yet I'll probably still be getting a 360 for xmas =/.
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#34 Nov 09 2009 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
and doesn't have a failure rate that leaves you without a working system half the time.


Relevant Smiley: thumbsup

Quote:
and for the fact that a PS3 is cheaper than a 360


No...

It's "cheaper" if you get all of the add ons for the 360 and none for the ps3, yes. It's not cheaper if you aren't obviously looking to create an imbalance in favour of the ps3.

Quote:
Now, you would be right, if it wasn't for the fact that there ARE games out for the PS3 that do take advantage of it's potential


Tentatively relevant, depending on the games. I've yet to see a lost of ps3 exclusives that are swaying my opinion.

Look dude, I have no problem admitting that the ps3 is awesome for some people. You seem to have a high aversion, however, to considering the notion that any other console can be better for any other person, and that's the very definition of a fanboyism. Stuff changes. At the wiis release, for example, it was the best console for me, hence I bought one. As it became apparent that nintendo had mostly lost interest in making good games for it (about a year into it) I no longer feel the need to defend it or even care (though they're a slight resurgance planned for 2010, still not recapturing the first year glory, but I digress.) Moved onto a 360 then, when it had like 6 rpgs ready for me to devour like some crazed, starved, min/maxing loon, and other things on the horizon. The ps3 simply has yet to deliver enough must-have games that I want to justify buying it; disgaea 3 is one, as is mgs3 but after that? Nothing I want at all.

Some people don't like the things I like though, and a ps3 would be a splendid choice, for them. It's just ridiculous to try to sway someone's favour though, without the slightest qualifier of taste, and you show very little appreciation for varied taste, honestly.

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I haven't red-ringed, also. I guess I'm just lucky.

Maybe it's cos I got a 299 MS refurbished one, and the guy in charge of it decided to not **** it up, like the **** up quotient had been reached already. I have no idea really.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 8:08pm by Pensive
#35 Nov 09 2009 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No...

It's "cheaper" if you get all of the add ons for the 360 and none for the ps3, yes. It's not cheaper if you aren't obviously looking to create an imbalance in favour of the ps3.


Erm... yes. Best case I'm giving 360 is the Pro + Online, where you're already paying 50 dollars more. And that's just to start.. every year after it will cost an additional 50 dollars. ._.

Quote:

Tentatively relevant, depending on the games. I've yet to see a lost of ps3 exclusives that are swaying my opinion.

Look dude, I have no problem admitting that the ps3 is awesome for some people. You seem to have a high aversion, however, to considering the notion that any other console can be better for any other person, and that's the very definition of a fanboyism. Stuff changes. At the wiis release, for example, it was the best console for me, hence I bought one. As it became apparent that nintendo had mostly lost interest in making good games for it (about a year into it) I no longer feel the need to defend it or even care (though they're a slight resurgance planned for 2010, still not recapturing the first year glory, but I digress.) Moved onto a 360 then, when it had like 6 rpgs ready for me to devour like some crazed, starved, min/maxing loon, and other things on the horizon. The ps3 simply has yet to deliver enough must-have games that I want to justify buying it; disgaea 3 is one, as is mgs3 but after that? Nothing I want at all.

Some people don't like the things I like though, and a ps3 would be a splendid choice, for them. It's just ridiculous to try to sway someone's favour though, without the slightest qualifier of taste, and you show very little appreciation for varied taste, honestly.


In all honesty I don't see myself being a fanboy here. The first thing you said in the debate was that only the game selection mattered. This is undeniably false. A large majority of games are playable on the PS3 and 360 together, but you usually get no increase in anything by playing it on the ps3 because the developers don't want to entirely redo the game to live up to what the ps3 could do. Thus, all of those games don't matter at all. Therefore, only the exlusives matter. And when it comes to exlusives, what matters most is the consoles abilities and potential. There are multiple games out there that take advantage of the PS3s potential, MGS4 takes adventage of a decent amount and Uncharted 2 is supposed to use 95%+ of it's potential. etc. PS3 is undeniably better than 360, but just because something is better doesn't mean that's what you should go with. You go with whatever system has the games you enjoy the most. What system each individual should buy is completely seperate from how the systems compare to each other in terms of performance.

I have never been trying to argue which system should be bought over the other one, just which system is better than the other one. I think you're assuming that when I say the PS3 is better that it should be bought over the 360 no matter what. The two are just.. completely indepedent from each other. I wouldn't own a game cube if I only bought the systems that were better. The second you try to factor opinions on games and game genres into which system is better you start getting fanboyism. I hope I'm getting what I'm trying to say across correctly, I'm in dire need of sleep and I'm not quite sure I'm thinking straight right now.. so if it came out wrong sorry in advance for the troubles it might cause!

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 9:02pm by Deadgye
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#36 Nov 09 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
PS3 is undeniably better than 360, but just because something is better doesn't mean that's what you should go with.


You aren't speaking english very well sir. Perhaps you can teach a course on whatever contradictory value set you'd like to espouse at a public seminar. To say this is to hold a contradictory and totally incompatible set of aesthetic principles.

I think what you need to do actually, is look up the word "better" and understand why it is egregiously broad, as well as inaccurate, for the point you are trying to make.

Quote:
And when it comes to exlusives, what matters most is the consoles abilities and potential.


The potential for an excellent game was capped somewhere around the super nintendo, well, maybe ps1, considering the dual analog control. The only thing to improve aside from that is graphics, without radically altering the interface to the point of being unrecognizable (like VR or something.) I can think of many, many more 360 exclusives that are better than the ps3s exclusives. Of course, that's personal opinion, which for some reason you are loath to consider as relevant at all, when in fact it is the only factor worth considering. I don't know why.

Furthermore, I don't know why you'd care to talk about technological potential at all if you're trying to distance it from prescribing a console to someone either. Once you do that anything you say is actually irrelevant, by your own admission, instead of simply misguided. If you don't want to use technological specifications to decide what console to buy, then what's the point in talking about them? You clearly want to say something right? Well it's not a prescription to buy something, and it's not a prescription on what console has better games... Facts are impotent if you don't do anything with them man.

Quote:
The second you try to factor opinions on games and game genres into which system is better you start getting fanboyism.


If by fanboyism you mean useful and specific advice, instead of pointless fanwanking, yes. Now I am totally up for some fanwanks, but there's no need to delude ourselves that they pertain to anything at all which is important.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 9:27pm by Pensive
#37 Nov 10 2009 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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You aren't speaking english very well sir. Perhaps you can teach a course on whatever contradictory value set you'd like to espouse at a public seminar. To say this is to hold a contradictory and totally incompatible set of aesthetic principles.

I think what you need to do actually, is look up the word "better" and understand why it is egregiously broad, as well as inaccurate, for the point you are trying to make.


Better wrote:
of superior quality or excellence: a better coat; a better speech.


It would seem you are the one who doesn't understand english very well. I am only talking about the facts, not opinions. If you're going to include which system has the games that you prefer, then you're bringing opinions into this. The PS3 is superior to the 360, as a system. But if the only type of games you like to play are FPS (opinion), then you sure as hell shouldn't be buying a PS3 over a 360.

Quote:
The potential for an excellent game was capped somewhere around the super nintendo, well, maybe ps1, considering the dual analog control. The only thing to improve aside from that is graphics, without radically altering the interface to the point of being unrecognizable (like VR or something.)


At this point I'm starting to think you're going delusional. Metal Gear Solid 1 has nothing on Metal Gear Solid 4. Why? Because they were able to fit so much more on a blu-ray than on 2 CDs. A better interface, a better enemy AI, better graphics(which actually do matter, because some games work infinitely better when they look realistic.), a longer story, etc. To say games can't potentially get any better after the PS1 stage is plain retarded.

Quote:
Furthermore, I don't know why you'd care to talk about technological potential at all if you're trying to distance it from prescribing a console to someone either. Once you do that anything you say is actually irrelevant, by your own admission, instead of simply misguided. If you don't want to use technological specifications to decide what console to buy, then what's the point in talking about them? You clearly want to say something right? Well it's not a prescription to buy something, and it's not a prescription on what console has better games... Facts are impotent if you don't do anything with them man.


You can't make a factual statement if you include game preference either, so what's your point? "Oh, the PS3 has an edge over the 360 in everything hardware and software, but I really like Halo so the 360 is the superior system." It's not a fact if it changes from person to person. From the standpoint of a developer, which system will result in the highest quality game? It's easy to see from the hardware differences alone that the answer is the PS3. That is the point I'm making.

Quote:
If by fanboyism you mean useful and specific advice, instead of pointless fanwanking, yes. Now I am totally up for some fanwanks, but there's no need to delude ourselves that they pertain to anything at all which is important.


So, if in my personal opinion all the 360 exlusives don't hold a candle to MGS4, it's now a fact that the PS3 is the superior system? And this fact applies to everybody, amirite? And if instead I think Halo is the best game ever, it means that 360 is miles ahead of PS3, and therefore I should tell everybody that it's a fact that the 360 is the best system to buy. I'm sorry, but you seem to think that opinions relating to game preference hold any meaning at all when it comes to comparing the technological differences between two systems.

If you want to talk about which is a better buy instead, then we can include game preference and split our decisions into groups depending on which types of games a person may like. So we can expect to have over a minimum of 200 different answers. Oh, and don't forget that we have to include that a PS3 will also be able to play blu-ray movies whereas with a 360 you'll have to buy a blu-ray player, so we can double the categories we're splitting our answers into to include "Wants to watch HD movies" and "Doesn't want to watch HD movies".
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#38 Nov 10 2009 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I own a 360 and a PS3, also have an average desktop computer. Average as in it plays WoW fine @ average settings. Honestly its hard for me to figure out which system to buy games for.

I have always owned a PS system so i tent to stick behind them, but when i got my 360 for cheap i tried out a few games. At first I didn't like the joystick, but now i feel that I like it better, besides yelling hit triangle to my friends when its called a different button on 360 lol still don't know what that button is without having joystick right in front of me.

So it all comes down to this, when I buy a game its usually for the 360 if available for both. When the game has a lot of online potential, I usually get it for PS3 as I have a lot of bills and the online portion is free right now. My latest game was Borderlands and that's why I got it for the PS3, which I'm having a blast with at the moment. But later this month when I get Dragonage Origins, its probably gonna be for the 360 as there is really no online value as I know.

Also with movies I tend to use my PS3 more because of blue ray, and when i burn dvix the PS3 tends to play them better for some reason.

Now what would be cool is they would make it so "online games" could all mesh with each other. I mean I got a few friends who got borderlands for 360, 1 guy got it for CPU, and a couple for PS3. It would be fun if we all could log onto same server some how and play together.

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#39 Nov 10 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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I too really wish multi-platform games with multiplayer provided cross platform multiplayer. Xbox players able to play with PS3 players and PC players, etc.

We can leave Wii players out in the cold though, cause we all hate them.
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#40 Nov 10 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I am only talking about the facts, not opinions.


"Better" is a @#%^ing opinion. It is necessarily an opinion. It is a value statement, all of which are opinions, by their definitions, and by their natures. It has nothing at all to do with fact, ontology, empirical data, or what is real. It can never deal with what is real, because if it does, then it is no longer a discussion of quality. Furthermore, whatever dictionary you quoted doesn't even support the ludicrous dissonance and misapplied premises in your logic that you are purporting; it lists a @#%^ing tautology which tells you that something is "better" than something else, when it is better than something else. I can't believe anyone would attempt to make an argument out of something so transparently vacuous and irrelevant. Jesus christ. Stop being stupid.

Quote:
You can't make a factual statement if you include game preference either, so what's your point?


That you can't make a factual statement in this debate. That your attempts to do so are inherently misguided and flawed with regards to what it means to consider something as better or worse, to judge something, or to grant something aesthetic value. That nothing you can ever, ever say about technology has the slightest bit of relevance to that aesthetic value, and does not actually make a system "better" than another system in anything other than a technological benchmark, and even that context is determined by a human imposition of value, and not an observation of it.

Factual statements have nothing to do with value statements. They never have, and never will. Values are arbitrary and created by humans in spite of facts, and there are no "facts" in the slightest capacity which can actually grant value to an object, no matter how you would like it to be so, until you ascribe it value which you have created independently of those facts. They are of entirely separate logical categories and simply cannot interact in any meaningful way.

Edited, Nov 10th 2009 9:24pm by Pensive
#41 Nov 10 2009 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
"Better" is a @#%^ing opinion. It is necessarily an opinion. It is a value statement, all of which are opinions, by their definitions, and by their natures. It has nothing at all to do with fact, ontology, empirical data, or what is real. It can never deal with what is real, because if it does, then it is no longer a discussion of quality. Furthermore, whatever dictionary you quoted doesn't even support the ludicrous dissonance and misapplied premises in your logic that you are purporting; it lists a @#%^ing tautology which tells you that something is "better" than something else, when it is better than something else. I can't believe anyone would attempt to make an argument out of something so transparently vacuous and irrelevant. Jesus christ. Stop being stupid.


Meh, fine. I'll just end the semantics argument then and concede that better wasn't the best choice of words. In my defense however, I didn't originally use better until I tried to differentiate between the opinions about the systems and the actual facts about the systems, something I shouldn't have had to do considering I was never talking about one of them. It just seems like you've been misunderstanding what I've been talking about. To go back a few posts, you responded to my past analogy with "This has nothing to do with what system is appropriate for most people to buy." I was never talking about which system was more appropriate for people to buy.

Quote:
That you can't make a factual statement in this debate.

The PS3 has a better processor than the 360. The PS3 is cheaper than the 360. The PS3 has better movie playing capabilities than the 360. The PS3 has the ability to make superior games than the 360. The PS3 has a System Floating Point Performance double that of the 360. All factual statements.
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#42 Nov 13 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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And if we are going to compared new prices, with the PS3 being $299 now instead of the price a couple months ago of $399 for the 80GB, you should at least update the WiFi adapter price for the Xbox. Which is only 68 dollars now.

And check this out:
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Elite-Winter-Batman-Bundle/dp/B002LBGB1S/ref=sr_tr_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1258159454&sr=8-1

Xbox 360 Elite, $293 and two games. HDMI cable, etc.

So, for $360 you get the system, headset, wireless adapter, and two games. Then for 50 dollars every 13 months you can get Xbox Live Gold.

Edited, Nov 13th 2009 7:49pm by TirithRR

Edited, Nov 13th 2009 10:44pm by TirithRR
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#43 Nov 13 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Decent
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^^^
That Elite bundle does not come with the HDMI cable, fyi. Microsoft stop putting the cable in since they lowered the elite's price. But thank goodness for Monoprice.com having HDMI cables for dirt cheap.
#44 Nov 13 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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OnimenoJason wrote:
^^^
That Elite bundle does not come with the HDMI cable, fyi. Microsoft stop putting the cable in since they lowered the elite's price. But thank goodness for Monoprice.com having HDMI cables for dirt cheap.


Oh, I misread the included list.

PS3 System
120GB HDD
HDMI Cable
Headset
Wireless
No Games
370USD

360 System
120GB HDD
HDMI Cable
Headset
Wireless
Two games (40USD value total)
400USD

360 costs 50 dollars for 13 month subscription to Gold. PSN is free (for multiplayer at least, I haven't dug around too deep into their other offerings).


I think I'd rather see the bundle without the games and a lower cost, even if just 30USD lower. At least one of the games is fun. I don't know anything about PURE, but the Lego series makes for some good fun. I haven't played the Batman game, but I have the Star Wars and Indiana Jones ones. But the Lego games aren't the first things I think of buying when I thought about buying the 360.

Edited, Nov 13th 2009 10:49pm by TirithRR
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#45 Nov 14 2009 at 2:13 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:

The PS3 has a better processor than the 360. The PS3 is cheaper than the 360. The PS3 has better movie playing capabilities than the 360. The PS3 has the ability to make superior games than the 360. The PS3 has a System Floating Point Performance double that of the 360. All factual statements.


All which doesn't mean a damn thing. The 360 still has a larger and more varied game library. I could care less if the PS3 was powerful enough invade my brain and create an actual virtual reality if the there weren't enough games I was interested in playing to bother paying for the system.

Edited, Nov 14th 2009 3:16am by Turin
#46 Nov 15 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Turin wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:

The PS3 has a better processor than the 360. The PS3 is cheaper than the 360. The PS3 has better movie playing capabilities than the 360. The PS3 has the ability to make superior games than the 360. The PS3 has a System Floating Point Performance double that of the 360. All factual statements.


All which doesn't mean a damn thing. The 360 still has a larger and more varied game library. I could care less if the PS3 was powerful enough invade my brain and create an actual virtual reality if the there weren't enough games I was interested in playing to bother paying for the system.

Edited, Nov 14th 2009 3:16am by Turin


Sorry, but what you said actually doesn't mean a damn thing. Opinions change from person to person. To you the 360 might have the better game selection, but to others the ps3 does. If it doesn't stay constant, then it doesn't matter. My opinion, for example, is that MGS4 makes every game on the 360 worthless in comparison. Does that hold any meaning over which system has the ability to create superior games from a developers point of view? No. Absolutely not.
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#47 Nov 15 2009 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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I've never liked any of the Metal Gear Solid games.
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#48 Nov 15 2009 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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This thread takes me back to the early 90s when we used to fight over Sega and Super Nintendo in school.

**** you all for making me feel olde.
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#49 Nov 17 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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Dagnabbed double post.

Edited, Nov 17th 2009 5:59am by Poldaran
#50 Nov 17 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
This thread takes me back to the early 90s when we used to fight over Sega and Super Nintendo in school.


Super Nintendo won because it had Final Fantasy 2, Final Fantasy 3(that's what we called them back in the day, as you may recall) and Chrono Trigger.


The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
My opinion, for example, is that MGS4 makes every game on the 360 worthless in comparison.


Your opinion forgot to mention Ratchet and Clank. Smiley: tongue
#51 Nov 17 2009 at 7:15 AM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR the Eccentric wrote:
I've never liked any of the Metal Gear Solid games.


Twin Snakes was the best imo.

But that's mainly because it was the first game with the ability to aim in first person.

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@#%^ you all for making me feel olde.


I participated in those squabbles too, you curmudgeon.

Edited, Nov 17th 2009 8:20am by Pensive
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