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#27 Apr 23 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
If I remember, a few months ago a large rule change happened, where they got rid of mana burn and mana doesnt go between phases. I remember reading their official forums about it.
#28 Apr 23 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If I remember, a few months ago a large rule change happened, where they got rid of mana burn and mana doesnt go between phases. I remember reading their official forums about it.
They did, but it doesn't carry over past the combat phase. so you can't tap mana, attack, then use the mana or attack, tap for mana and use it in the second main phase.

Currently it's possible to cast a 7/7 guy who detroys a permanent of the defending players choise when he attacks on turn 3, in mono red with no mana acceleration.

And it's a "slow" set.
#29 Apr 23 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
tarv wrote:
Quote:
If I remember, a few months ago a large rule change happened, where they got rid of mana burn and mana doesnt go between phases. I remember reading their official forums about it.
They did, but it doesn't carry over past the combat phase. so you can't tap mana, attack, then use the mana or attack, tap for mana and use it in the second main phase.

Currently it's possible to cast a 7/7 guy who detroys a permanent of the defending players choise when he attacks on turn 3, in mono red with no mana acceleration.

And it's a "slow" set.


From what this says its after every single phase and step.

Quote:
3) Mana Pools and Mana Burn

3A) Mana Pools Emptying

The Reality: Many players can't clearly distinguish between phases and steps. The fact that mana remains in pools from step to step but not phase to phase is arbitrary. The concept of floating mana from step to step is hard to understand. Mana pools, in general, should be empty most of the time that players pass priority for ease of keeping track of the game state.

The Fix: Mana pools now empty at the end of each step and phase, which means mana can no longer be floated from the upkeep to the draw step, nor from the declare attackers step to the declare blockers step of combat.

The Details: This is mostly a change on the rules side. Currently, rule 300.3 of the Comprehensive Rules says "When a phase ends (but not a step), any unused mana left in a player's mana pool is lost." That'll change to "When a step or phase ends, any unused mana left in a player's mana pool is lost." A few cards, such as Upwelling and Sakura-Tribe Springcaller, will get minor errata to their "mana doesn't empty from mana pools" abilities just to specify that the mana doesn't empty when steps end either. Other cards affected by this change, such as Radha, Heir to Keld and Braid of Fire, will not receive errata.

3B) Mana Burn Eliminated

The Reality: Many players aren't aware of the existence of mana burn as a game concept. Discovering it exists, especially via an opponent manipulating his own life total for gain, can be jarring. Its existence impacts game play in a negligible way, whereas its existence impacts card design space somewhat significantly.

The Fix: Mana burn is eliminated as a game concept. Mana left unspent at the end of steps or phases will simply vanish, with no accompanying loss of life.

The Details: It turns out that eliminating mana burn from the game is surprisingly easy. I delete three sentences from rule 300.3, strike the glossary entry, and modify a few other rules that mention mana burn, and it's gone. Six cards will get errata to delete their references to mana burn, since "This mana doesn't cause mana burn" text will be pretty redundant all of a sudden.

What happens during a game? Let's say Heartbeat of Spring is in play, and you add four mana to your mana pool, but you spend only three of it. At the end of the current step or phase, the extra mana vanishes. That's it. No penalty; it's just gone.

By my reckoning, the elimination of mana burn will functionally impact about 40 cards, some for the better and some for the worse, some directly and some indirectly, because no cards are getting errata as a result of this rules change. That's right: We're not maintaining current functionality for these cards; the whole point of getting rid of the mana burn rule is to get rid of the mana burn rule.

Some examples of cards that will work differently:

* Cathodion, Tolarian Academy, and Mana Drain are better, since there's now no drawback to adding unspendable mana to your mana pool.
* Spectral Searchlight and Valleymaker are worse, since you can't use them to cause your opponent to mana burn.
* Spur Grappler and Well of Discovery are better, since you can basically tap all of your lands for free now.
* Citadel of Pain is worse, since your opponent can basically tap all of his or her lands for free now.
* Hidetsugu's Second Rite is better, since your opponent can't dodge a life total of 10 by mana burning down to 9.
* Magus of the Mirror, Convalescent Care, and Pulse of the Forge are worse, since you can't intentionally (and easily) mana burn yourself down to a low life total.

In 99.9% of Magic games, of course, you'll never even notice mana burn is gone.
#30 Apr 23 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh wow, thanks for that link Alabont, I didn't realize they had done that. Very interesting.

As for sealed tournaments, I think they also really test your deck building ability and ability to adapt depending on what cards you get, which can be very useful.
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#31 Apr 23 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Up until a certain point yes.

but when u get to the point where everyone is of a certain level of skill, it comes down to who has the most bombs.

The bombs dictate the deck you build, the number and cohessiveness of the bombs u get dictate how you will generally do.

for example at this years nationals they ran a sealed deck M10 tourney. 6 boosters.

of the top 16 decks all had one card, the top 8 all had a combination of 2 of three cards and the winner had all three.
#32 Apr 23 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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I prefer sealed deck also, because I get new cards and get to see all of the new cards. And yea, people don't just show up with their great deck and destroy everyone else who plays more casually.

Do you think that Sleep could be replaced with something more useful? Perhaps another 3 'counter target spell' cards? Since I'd assume countering a spell is the best, because almost any card in the game is a spell. Or maybe I ought to get some more creatures in there? I have some more in my collection that I will thumb through and pick out to add in.

This post, except maybe another one or two tonight, will be my last for a little while. Pals and myself got caught skipping school and now I'm grounded. I don't know how long the punishment is, and I know that I wont be able to use a computer in that time. XD Maybe 2 weeks, maybe 3, I don't know. But don't be surprised when/if I necro this, since MTG discussions are awesome.
#33 Apr 23 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
ok yall brought mtg into this, this is my favorite blue deck i have built. some backround on me i have played since unlimtied/legends and have made many many decks but im the end my heart always laid with mono decks so here is my mono blue. i havent played regularly in years this is the base cards mana and final deck count i dont recall the ballance.

4 volrath shape shifters
4 riptide shapeshifters
4 morphlings
1 arcanis the oniponent
2 quicksilver dragons
1 dark steal colossus
1 phage the untouchable
2 tradewindriders

4 counterspell(mana drain)
4 force of wills(not counted when doin mana distriburtion)
3 opposition
2 proteous staff
4 pendralls something(enchant turns creatures into morphlings)
2 capsize
2 Reminisce

20 islands

cards for none turny legal play, mind over matter and dream halls

i also had a mono black 1.5 deck on a good pull would be 1st turn kill on a bad pull turn 5 kill both of these were able to take on type one power 9 decks.
#34 Apr 23 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Skipping school? That's a failure dude. Going to class is the best way to ensure passable grades. You could put minimal effort into all of your classes and most likely get at least a B in all of them as long as you just don't skip class.
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#35 Apr 23 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
Actually, if he wants to include a large creature as an alternate win condition, I suggest this little guy.

Mostly because the uncounterable "draw four cards" would help anyway, even if they smack him personally down.
#36 Apr 23 2010 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
wow, yeah he would have been in there in place of dsc but it wasnt out when i made that deck

but i dig it
#37 Apr 24 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh dear lord, he is impressive. Drawing 4 cards for casting him, and then opponent has to sacrifice 4 permanents whenever he attacks? Damn...

Not to mention the 12/12 part.
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#38 Apr 24 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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That's one thing about MTG that is bugging me. Of course, over time all the numbers are going to get higher, and effects are going to become more and more devastating. It just seems like it's all going too fast, you know? Drawing 4 when you play Kozilek, that's cool. But Annihilator 4? That's just too much. And the other effect is a little overboard too, I think.

Annihilator is just crazy though. Nicol is another one that just seems too crazy, the -9 ability. I dunno, it just seems to be so fast paced, more like a damage race than actually outskilling the opponent. It's a double edged sword though, because the quickness is also a good aspect.

Maybe I just hate getting owned by things like Kozilek and Nicol.
#39 Apr 24 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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CestinShaman wrote:
That's one thing about MTG that is bugging me. Of course, over time all the numbers are going to get higher, and effects are going to become more and more devastating. It just seems like it's all going too fast, you know? Drawing 4 when you play Kozilek, that's cool. But Annihilator 4? That's just too much. And the other effect is a little overboard too, I think.

Annihilator is just crazy though. Nicol is another one that just seems too crazy, the -9 ability. I dunno, it just seems to be so fast paced, more like a damage race than actually outskilling the opponent. It's a double edged sword though, because the quickness is also a good aspect.

Maybe I just hate getting owned by things like Kozilek and Nicol.


I don't understand what those costs are. Loyalty? What is that?
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#40 Apr 24 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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Vataro wrote:
CestinShaman wrote:
That's one thing about MTG that is bugging me. Of course, over time all the numbers are going to get higher, and effects are going to become more and more devastating. It just seems like it's all going too fast, you know? Drawing 4 when you play Kozilek, that's cool. But Annihilator 4? That's just too much. And the other effect is a little overboard too, I think.

Annihilator is just crazy though. Nicol is another one that just seems too crazy, the -9 ability. I dunno, it just seems to be so fast paced, more like a damage race than actually outskilling the opponent. It's a double edged sword though, because the quickness is also a good aspect.

Maybe I just hate getting owned by things like Kozilek and Nicol.


I don't understand what those costs are. Loyalty? What is that?


http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/planeswalkers/week4
#41 Apr 24 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Interesting. I now have a strong desire to hold a closed draft with this new set... now to find friends who wish to participate!
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#42 Apr 24 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Excellent
CestinShaman wrote:
That's one thing about MTG that is bugging me. Of course, over time all the numbers are going to get higher, and effects are going to become more and more devastating. It just seems like it's all going too fast, you know? Drawing 4 when you play Kozilek, that's cool. But Annihilator 4? That's just too much. And the other effect is a little overboard too, I think.
Keep in mind that he does take 12 to cast.

Yes, it's kind of ridiculous - but when you're putting something like that out, you are basically saying "either you have an answer right now, or you lose in a few turns". You would be even if it were something else that doesn't take out four things a turn even if it gets chump-blocked. (Say, going back to Ice Age, Polar Kraken.)

Really, power creep hasn't been that prominent at the top end. Most of it has occurred at the bottom end - where you'd be spending one mana for a 1/1, now that same one mana gets you (usually) a 2/1, a 1/2, or even occasionally a 2/2. Two mana gets you, instead of a 2/2, a 3/3 (or right in that range).
#43 Apr 26 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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The thing with the eldrazi is that in order to get them out early enough to actually influence the game u need to use eldrazi spawn which are vulnerable and means that an oust or unsummon even is going to ruin your day.

Alternitively you could play green and lose every game you play trying to drop the 12/12.

Trust me "Red deck wins" is going to eat any Eldrazi based deck alive in standard.

In vintage however expect them to be a staple addition to sneak attack decks.

I also have seem people already talking about them being touted as a candidate for ban sticks in EDH.
#44 Apr 27 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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tarv wrote:
The thing with the eldrazi is that in order to get them out early enough to actually influence the game u need to use eldrazi spawn which are vulnerable and means that an oust or unsummon even is going to ruin your day.

Alternitively you could play green and lose every game you play trying to drop the 12/12.

Trust me "Red deck wins" is going to eat any Eldrazi based deck alive in standard.

In vintage however expect them to be a staple addition to sneak attack decks.

I also have seem people already talking about them being touted as a candidate for ban sticks in EDH.


I didn't understand half of this post. XD EDH? Sneak attack deck? Vintage?

But anyway, I did find something useful, and I hope it's legal. Muddle the Mixture (Here on out referred to as Muddle.) I used the transmute when playing against my brother. So I get to look through my deck for a card of the same converted mana cost. Now that I think about it, converted is everything added together. So I can go find a card, put it in my hand and reveal, that's 2 mana altogether? Makes more sense than what I thought the other night. "Muddle has no grey numbers, so it has 0 converted cost, so I can use it to find High Tide LOLOLOLOL"
#45 Apr 27 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
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CestinShaman wrote:
tarv wrote:
The thing with the eldrazi is that in order to get them out early enough to actually influence the game u need to use eldrazi spawn which are vulnerable and means that an oust or unsummon even is going to ruin your day.

Alternitively you could play green and lose every game you play trying to drop the 12/12.

Trust me "Red deck wins" is going to eat any Eldrazi based deck alive in standard.

In vintage however expect them to be a staple addition to sneak attack decks.

I also have seem people already talking about them being touted as a candidate for ban sticks in EDH.


I didn't understand half of this post. XD EDH? Sneak attack deck? Vintage?

But anyway, I did find something useful, and I hope it's legal. Muddle the Mixture (Here on out referred to as Muddle.) I used the transmute when playing against my brother. So I get to look through my deck for a card of the same converted mana cost. Now that I think about it, converted is everything added together. So I can go find a card, put it in my hand and reveal, that's 2 mana altogether? Makes more sense than what I thought the other night. "Muddle has no grey numbers, so it has 0 converted cost, so I can use it to find High Tide LOLOLOLOL"

I believe he's referring to some new mechanic in the new expansion set, which I personally haven't looked at yet (again, not having the time or money for MTG right now). "Red Deck Wins" is a highly aggressive deck revolving around cheap creatures and burn spells, with the goal of just plain killing you as quickly as possible. Sneak Attack decks try to abuse Sneak Attack or (some similar card that allows you to circumvent the casting cost of a creature) to quickly get some huge monster into play; they tend to be quite speedy, and look for the biggest, baddest beasties to sneak into play. EDH is the non-sanctioned "Elder Dragon Highlander" format, and Vintage is the sanctioned Vintage format.

Muddle the Mixture is an excellent card. You kind of have to build your deck with it in mind (including enough 2-mana cost spells to Transmute for), but it provides both defense and offense along with the flexibility to find other cards as the situation needs.

MDenham wrote:

Actually, if he wants to include a large creature as an alternate win condition, I suggest this little guy.

Mostly because the uncounterable "draw four cards" would help anyway, even if they smack him personally down.

Technically, one could Stifle the card-drawing ability, as it is a triggered ability. Yes, that's nit-picking, but this thread is titled "MTG rules nit-picking"... :P
#46 Apr 28 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Good
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I need to find something to let me transmute for just 1 mana...or a similar 'go find whatever you want in your library' so I can pull out High Tide's more often. They seem particularly useful.

I think I've realized that all around, I need some acceleration. It hasn't been a huge problem yet, but in the future I think I'll begin running out of cards in my hand, and then have nothing to do while my opponent's creatures are beating on me. Oh well, fun deck.

Sucks though, my and pals were going to go to the local (1 hour away) Friday night MTG for the Sealed draft. It alternates weeks, one week it's Open, the next Sealed, etc. Open would be worth going to if we had really good decks, but not worth driving an hour just to lose. Drafts are much funner, plus you get a good, cheap deck from it. Plus some more cards, some people just give away common ones they have tons of already. It's my brother's birthday though, so I at least can't make it.

Going to be playing some MTG on Saturday though, before D&D! We admit that we've sold our souls to WotC.
#47 Apr 28 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
CestinShaman wrote:
I need to find something to let me transmute for just 1 mana...
That would be Dizzy Spell that you're looking for, then.

Which might be at least temporarily useful against decks that rely on one big creature that you didn't manage to lock down otherwise, as well.
#48 Apr 28 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yea, I need to find a shop around here that does sealed tournaments.
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#49 Apr 28 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
CestinShaman wrote:
I need to find something to let me transmute for just 1 mana...
That would be Dizzy Spell that you're looking for, then.

Which might be at least temporarily useful against decks that rely on one big creature that you didn't manage to lock down otherwise, as well.


Thanks a lot MDen, that's perfect. Useful otherwise, but also I can put a couple of those in my deck. So instead of a 3/63 chance to get High Tide, I'd have a higher chance to get Dizzy Spell or High Tide.

Though drawing 7 in the first hand, adding in 3 Dizzy's, I'd have a ~11% chance to draw one singly, 11%*7=77%. Though I'm sure it doesn't work like that, I think ~77% is a good rough estimate.
#50 Apr 29 2010 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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Ref Eldrazi spawn: In the new expansion many cards include an effect that puts 0/1 eldrazi spawn tokens into play in addition to their standard effect, eldrazi spawn can be sacrificed to provide you with 1 colourless mana.

Example: Essence feed 5Btarget player loses three life. You gain three life and put three 0/1 colourless Eldrazi spawn tokens onto the battlefield. They have "sacrifice this creature:Add 1 colourless mana to your mana pool.

Vintage is indeed the old Type 1 and generally includes crazily broken decks that tend to win on turn 1/2.

EDH is IMO the most fun and unbroken format, 1 legendary general card, 99 card deck with no more than 1 of any non basic land card. You may only play cards that have the same colour as your general. I play a G/W/B Heneb, the Harvester Deck that abuses the Tutors and distruction of W/B and the mana acceleration of G to lay big, fat, scary and generally broken old cards.

Oh and Defence of the heart searching out Iona + Emrakul generally = Win.
#51 Apr 29 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
CestinShaman wrote:
MDenham wrote:
CestinShaman wrote:
I need to find something to let me transmute for just 1 mana...
That would be Dizzy Spell that you're looking for, then.

Which might be at least temporarily useful against decks that rely on one big creature that you didn't manage to lock down otherwise, as well.


Thanks a lot MDen, that's perfect. Useful otherwise, but also I can put a couple of those in my deck. So instead of a 3/63 chance to get High Tide, I'd have a higher chance to get Dizzy Spell or High Tide.

Though drawing 7 in the first hand, adding in 3 Dizzy's, I'd have a ~11% chance to draw one singly, 11%*7=77%. Though I'm sure it doesn't work like that, I think ~77% is a good rough estimate.
It's too high by a fair amount, actually - you've got about a 50% chance of drawing at least one out of the six in a 66-card deck.

Which, really, is good enough for your purposes anyway.
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