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Switching to FotM spec, with sadness :(Follow

#1 Jan 11 2011 at 8:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I am so upset.

I have always loved the sub tree. I like to be a sneaky little phucker, stealthing around and messing with those silly enough to venture off by themselves in BGs. I love the mobility granted by Shadowstep. I like the cooldown refreshment of Prep and the tactical planning for premed.

I'm getting close to 85 (83 now) and for the first time since L10, I have had to switch my PvP spec away from sub. I switched to 31/0/8 (going to be 31/0/10 by 85) because sub damage just sucks. Terribly. Ambush was critting for 8-12k, backstab for around 7-11k and hemo for 3-4k. In a world where many classes, even at 83-84, have 90k++ HP, that simply doesn't cut it. I mean, I could beat just about anyone 1v1, but who ever PvPs 1v1? In a BG, if you take 20-60 seconds to kill someone 1v1, the fight will inevitably turn to 2v1 (either for or against you). It is pointless.

Mutilate just does so much more damage. I can consistently deal 30-50k damage with one full energy bar. If I use my CB and Vendetta, I can easily do close to 50k. The difference is so great that I can only describe sub as "broken," which saddens me terribly because I love the spec.
#2 Jan 11 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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4.0.6 will bring Sub's damage back.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=228587
#3 Jan 11 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Wow... That is fantastic... A bit of a nerf to defensive CDs, but a very nice, seemingly very needed buff to sub's ability to output damage. Time will tell if it's enough.

Regardless, you made me feel much better :)

I was starting to feel like it was just me sucking bawls... Glad to see it's a real problem worthy of a buff!
#4 Jan 11 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Jordster wrote:

Wow... That is fantastic... A bit of a nerf to defensive CDs, but a very nice, seemingly very needed buff to sub's ability to output damage. Time will tell if it's enough.

Regardless, you made me feel much better :)

I was starting to feel like it was just me sucking bawls... Glad to see it's a real problem worthy of a buff!

Frankly I wasn't having problems on my rogue in PvP, but really all I did was Tol Barad and no one had gear at that point so it's totally possible that I'm ignorant of Sub's problems.

I will say though that I found Mutilate to be exceptionally bad in PvP when compared with Sub.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 1:15pm by Theophany
#5 Jan 12 2011 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
4.0.6 will bring Sub's damage back.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=228587


I saw this and am hopeful since I really like subtlety. Just a bit sad about the Prep-Evasion change.
#6 Jan 12 2011 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Konuvis wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
4.0.6 will bring Sub's damage back.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=228587


I saw this and am hopeful since I really like subtlety. Just a bit sad about the Prep-Evasion change.

To be honest I've almost never had to prep for Evasion. Prep for a second Vanish, second Sprint, etc sure, but Evasion? Eh, not really.

Really only when dueling warriors.
#7 Jan 12 2011 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I know the feeling. You play all your **** well, set up a burst, then proceed to unload, and... take down 20-30% of the enemy's health bar before you run out of energy and combo points.

Low damage is a *****.
#8 Jan 13 2011 at 2:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Mozared wrote:
I know the feeling. You play all your sh*t well, set up a burst, then proceed to unload, and... take down 20-30% of the enemy's health bar before you run out of energy and combo points.

Low damage is a *****.

Do like I did, switch to a hunter. Better in PvE, better in rated BGs, better at soloing.

Or whatever class you prefer.

I just can't stand my rogue's ridiculously bad soloing ability.
#9 Jan 13 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mozared wrote:
I know the feeling. You play all your sh*t well, set up a burst, then proceed to unload, and... take down 20-30% of the enemy's health bar before you run out of energy and combo points.

Low damage is a *****.

Do like I did, switch to a hunter. Better in PvE, better in rated BGs, better at soloing.

Or whatever class you prefer.

I just can't stand my rogue's ridiculously bad soloing ability.


maybe a bit overblown?
Granted i'm only level 27 right now but I have no issues what so ever and with the speed at witch you level I tend to be a few level higher than most quests so it helps.
We'll see how Subtlety goes arounds 40s-50s (I don't remember having issues when I leveled one in BC) and I'm assuming getting Hemorrhage should help.
#10 Jan 13 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Konuvis wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mozared wrote:
I know the feeling. You play all your sh*t well, set up a burst, then proceed to unload, and... take down 20-30% of the enemy's health bar before you run out of energy and combo points.

Low damage is a *****.

Do like I did, switch to a hunter. Better in PvE, better in rated BGs, better at soloing.

Or whatever class you prefer.

I just can't stand my rogue's ridiculously bad soloing ability.


maybe a bit overblown?
Granted i'm only level 27 right now but I have no issues what so ever and with the speed at witch you level I tend to be a few level higher than most quests so it helps.
We'll see how Subtlety goes arounds 40s-50s (I don't remember having issues when I leveled one in BC) and I'm assuming getting Hemorrhage should help.

HI YOU'RE LEVEL 27.

I can bang my face on the keyboard at level 27 and kill things.

Hemo is not a combo point generator. It's meant to provide a debuff.

Posting on a subject you have no experience with and have no clue about is just about the stupidest thing I can think of. Smiley: facepalm
#11 Jan 14 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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I'm curious as to what makes the rogues bad at solo play, particularly since I'm leveling one that will almost certainly be used only for solo play. I'm in the mid 40s now so while it would kinda suck to start a new toon to take care of the crafting skills I had planned for this toon it's not too late to start something else (though I might tough it out until I get this one high enough to take care of the stupid lock boxes I've had pilling up).
#12 Jan 14 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Konuvis wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mozared wrote:
I know the feeling. You play all your sh*t well, set up a burst, then proceed to unload, and... take down 20-30% of the enemy's health bar before you run out of energy and combo points.

Low damage is a *****.

Do like I did, switch to a hunter. Better in PvE, better in rated BGs, better at soloing.

Or whatever class you prefer.

I just can't stand my rogue's ridiculously bad soloing ability.


maybe a bit overblown?
Granted i'm only level 27 right now but I have no issues what so ever and with the speed at witch you level I tend to be a few level higher than most quests so it helps.
We'll see how Subtlety goes arounds 40s-50s (I don't remember having issues when I leveled one in BC) and I'm assuming getting Hemorrhage should help.

HI YOU'RE LEVEL 27.

I can bang my face on the keyboard at level 27 and kill things.

Hemo is not a combo point generator. It's meant to provide a debuff.

Posting on a subject you have no experience with and have no clue about is just about the stupidest thing I can think of. Smiley: facepalm


Snarky comments aside do you really feel the rogue is "ridiculously bad (at) soloing" ?
#13 Jan 14 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
I leveled a rogue to about 45 years ago, started all over again this year and it feels a bit slower, a bit harder to level than it used to, I only reached 25 so far though.

Most likely just my imagination.

#14 Jan 14 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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I'm curious as to what makes the rogues bad at solo play, particularly since I'm leveling one that will almost certainly be used only for solo play.


I'd say it's Blizzard's strange idea of "fun" that's problematic. Increasing mob health and damage the way they did results in fights now being so "meaningful" that you easily spend more time healing yourself in whatever way than actually killing things. Get an add, and you better have cooldowns ready or be dead.

I just finished 80-85 with a cat druid, and it was slow an painful. Don't even want to think about how it might be for a rogue, having nothing but food and bandages. Pretty much the reason why I can't be bothered with leveling my rogue just yet.

Dunno, maybe I'm just spoiled, but I don't care for anything that requires more than 5 combo points and an eviscerate/ferocious bite for your average quest mob. The whole idea once was to kill things before they start to hurt you, but that one seems out the window.

With hunter, shammy, and mage, things felt good in the new zones right from the start.
#15 Jan 14 2011 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
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Kanngarnix wrote:
Quote:
I'm curious as to what makes the rogues bad at solo play, particularly since I'm leveling one that will almost certainly be used only for solo play.


I'd say it's Blizzard's strange idea of "fun" that's problematic. Increasing mob health and damage the way they did results in fights now being so "meaningful" that you easily spend more time healing yourself in whatever way than actually killing things. Get an add, and you better have cooldowns ready or be dead.

I just finished 80-85 with a cat druid, and it was slow an painful. Don't even want to think about how it might be for a rogue, having nothing but food and bandages. Pretty much the reason why I can't be bothered with leveling my rogue just yet.

Dunno, maybe I'm just spoiled, but I don't care for anything that requires more than 5 combo points and an eviscerate/ferocious bite for your average quest mob. The whole idea once was to kill things before they start to hurt you, but that one seems out the window.

With hunter, shammy, and mage, things felt good in the new zones right from the start.

Yep, pretty much this. From 80-85, you must have Imp Recuperate or blow a cooldown for each mob you want to kill unless you want to stun/gouge the mob for 5 minutes or end with ~30% health.

Even with Imp Recuperate, you're going to be down to 70-80% HP after each mob you kill.

Whereas on a hunter, you send your pet in, slap on Mend Pet (maybe) and kill a mob and end with full HP on both you and your pet.

Rogues aren't bad, per se, it's just that other classes have it a lot better in solo play. Then again, rogues have never been very good at soloing (read: killing elites or multiple mobs; blind and sap are not enough to CC effectively outside of dungeons).

Edit: I should also state that until Cataclysm content (i.e. 80+ zones), soloing should be pretty easy as a rogue. 1-70 should be easy, 70-80 a little harder, and 80-85 is like hacking off your arm.

I just don't want to have to keep up Imp Recuperate in order to barely survive a 1v1 encounter with an even-level mob for a DPS class that is subpar in PvE and mediocre in PvP (rated BGs).

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 9:47pm by Theophany
#16 Jan 16 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Huh. I just finished levelling to 85 as Combat, and it was a breeze. Admittedly, I haven't levelled any alts to 85 yet, so I can't compare to other classes, but I very rarely had to stop to heal myself. Sure, I wasn't running around gathering a big mob to AoE down, but that's never really been the strong point of rogues anyway.

With Deadly Momentum, it's not like you have to waste all your CPs on Recuperate, just get it going, keep the pace up, and come back to loot the trail of corpses when you need a breather.

Maybe Assassination suffers from a lack of cooldowns compared to Combat? I pretty much always had at least one cooldown available, either offensive or defensive, and was usually back at 100% health by the time I reached the next mob. Even if I wasn't, so what? It's not a boss fight, our health pools are huge these days, and you can always vanish if you ***** up, so just keep going!
#17 Jan 18 2011 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
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I experienced pretty much the same thing as combat. Improved Recup. deadly momentum and you're good to go. The mobs in Tol Barad are tough sure, but it's still a hell of a lot easier than my ret pally. At least i don't have to chain cast 2.5 second heals after each fight, ugh.
#18 Feb 01 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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Up through the end of Deepholm, I can honestly say I haven't had a single problem leveling as my rogue (assassination). Deadly Momentum probably wouldn't make it into a raiding build, but it makes a ridiculous difference when questing and leveling. Just get up a 5 pt Recuperate on a questing mob, and go from mob to mob. Average time from killing a mob to the next mob being dead seems to be about 20 seconds.

To be fair, I do re-stealth and open with a CS normally.

Still, I've rarely had to eat food or use a bandage. It's possible this will change in Twilight Highlands, and obviously Tol Barad could be a little rocky. But so far it's been really easy. Not Wrath easy, but easy.

Hunter of course would be even easier, but still. :)
#19 Feb 01 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Sub is really fine too. I'm 43 and so far I've never stopped to eat and I've used 2-3 bandages while in combat. Leveling has really become easy in Cataclysm especially when you add guild perks on top.
Keep in mind I usually either pickpocket before the fight or skin after the fight but that doesn't change much.

I usually just have to Ambush-Evisc and the mob is dead and before the Ambush I go between ShS and Premed depending on which is on cooldown.
#20 Feb 01 2011 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Konuvis wrote:
Sub is really fine too. I'm 43 and so far I've never stopped to eat and I've used 2-3 bandages while in combat. Leveling has really become easy in Cataclysm especially when you add guild perks on top.
Keep in mind I usually either pickpocket before the fight or skin after the fight but that doesn't change much.

I usually just have to Ambush-Evisc and the mob is dead and before the Ambush I go between ShS and Premed depending on which is on cooldown.

Yeah, like multiple people in this thread have said, leveling pre-80 is actually ridiculously easy. It's post 80 when mobs have more than 10k HP (more like 30-50k) that it gets harder.

And for the record, I didn't have much of any problems in leveling, per se. It was when you try and do Tol Barad dailies where the mobs hit like trucks and have 70k+ HP that it gets rough. Rogues have immense problems dealing with multiple mobs, and mobs in TBP are packed so tightly in most areas that you'll be dealing with adds fairly often.

Obviously it'll get easier with gear, but for fresh 85s, it's a nightmare. Add that to rated BGs (where rogues are good, but other classes are much better as ranges are much larger) and other classes are much more desirable because of kiting and rogue's mobility.

Also add in PvE where (from what I hear) rogues are fairly average in terms of DPS (i.e. even below some hybrid classes) and have more stringent movement requirements placed on them, and I have no desire to play my rogue.
#21 Feb 03 2011 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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How's Mutilate's damage past 80?

My Rogue's only 62, but I kill most stuff with Ambush > Mutilate (x2) > Eviscerate. I do take some damage if I don't have Recuperate running, so I'm wondering if Cataclysm questing is just as painful as it was on my Druid (who was crit immune and had heals, not to mention Bear Form).

Right now, though, I like the Rogue. Haven't touched him since Vanilla, except for yesterday when I dusted him off, transferred him to my main server and switched him out for a Goblin clone. It's like being a Kitty Druid, but with more utility. I do miss being able to move at +30% speed, and not having Feral Charge (Shadowstep) sort of pains me, but still, it's pretty nice that I can pop a lot of CC without having to switch back and forth between forms.

Anyway, to rerail my post, should I just go Combat for leveling, or is Assassination good enough even past 80?
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#22 Feb 03 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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I had no real trouble leveling 80-85 as mutilate in basically my old raid spec (i.e., no Deadly Momentum), but I never felt like I was really dominating anything. And I definitely had to watch out for adds, but I guess the non-faceroll was what Blizz was going for. For reference' sake, the rogue was in mostly ICC25 gear when he ventured into Mt Hyjal the first time.

As a point of comparison, I'm currently leveling my mage and pally (both L.82 now), both of whom were in i200 or lower WOLK gear. Haha, actually, the mage was head to toe in S2 (yes that's 2 as in two as in L.70 arena gear -- he was my first toon, but kinda skipped WOLK), now that I think about it. Anyhow, mage started off frost and really felt underpowered. In a way I was kinda enjoying actually having to nova/blink/kite a bit in order to finish off that last 1/3 of a mob's hp. Was strange at first, after WOLK, where everything died before it got to me, but after getting over that shock, not too shabby. Then I switched to arcane and it became a cakewalk. ABlast automatically applying Slow instantly makes arcane a super viable leveling spec.

I kept the pally specced prot just for esses and gees. Stuff dies kinda slow but I never have to worry about checking my hp bar like I did on the rogue. Overall efficiency I'd say is lower than the rogue unless I'm in a situation that I can pull multiple mobs and Hammer of the Righteous gets some use.

As people have mentioned, TB dailies are a different story b/c of how packed together they are and how quickly the mobs respawn. That said, between Combat Readiness, Dismantle, Evasion, Recup, Blind, and my personal favorite iwin button, Vanish (cuz if I'm not losin', I'm winnin', amirite?), we do okay.

At 85, it's hard for me to say whether mut is ok, pve dmg-wise. I'm only doing 5mans so far (heroics now), and mostly pugs at that. I generally am way ahead on recount, but see my prior sentence for why that's nigh irrelevant. The couple of times I haven't been on top, it has been a hunter with a better gearscore that beat me. Not sure if the luck of the draw has just grouped me with better hunters or if the hunter class is actually better.
#23 Feb 03 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
How's Mutilate's damage past 80?

My Rogue's only 62, but I kill most stuff with Ambush > Mutilate (x2) > Eviscerate. I do take some damage if I don't have Recuperate running, so I'm wondering if Cataclysm questing is just as painful as it was on my Druid (who was crit immune and had heals, not to mention Bear Form).

Right now, though, I like the Rogue. Haven't touched him since Vanilla, except for yesterday when I dusted him off, transferred him to my main server and switched him out for a Goblin clone. It's like being a Kitty Druid, but with more utility. I do miss being able to move at +30% speed, and not having Feral Charge (Shadowstep) sort of pains me, but still, it's pretty nice that I can pop a lot of CC without having to switch back and forth between forms.

Anyway, to rerail my post, should I just go Combat for leveling, or is Assassination good enough even past 80?

Mutilate is actually the best rogue spec for PvE, currently.

http://stateofdps.com/
#24 Feb 04 2011 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Anyway, to rerail my post, should I just go Combat for leveling, or is Assassination good enough even past 80?

Assassination is great for leveling past 80. I'm romping around in Uldum right now, and it's disgusting how quickly I'm killing things and how little downtime I have. I have to eat or bandage maybe once every hour or so, though I am careful to pull only one unless I have a CD up.

Definitely no reason to change to combat if you like Mutilate.
#25 Feb 04 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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tabstopper wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Anyway, to rerail my post, should I just go Combat for leveling, or is Assassination good enough even past 80?

Assassination is great for leveling past 80. I'm romping around in Uldum right now, and it's disgusting how quickly I'm killing things and how little downtime I have. I have to eat or bandage maybe once every hour or so, though I am careful to pull only one unless I have a CD up.

Definitely no reason to change to combat if you like Mutilate.


I leveled as Muti with all the Recup talents and survivability I could grab. Was easy mode.
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#26 Feb 05 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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It's odd, because being a Feral Druid at heart, you'd think the Subtlety style appealed to me more, but I'm actually liking the Mutilate spec more.

Seeing a Rogue in my heroic earlier today (on my Druid) do a 55k Envenom crit might have had something to do with it, though. Smiley: lol
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