Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Ghostly Strike with MutilateFollow

#1 Mar 30 2007 at 5:31 AM Rating: Decent
**
426 posts
Well, I had an extra point that I've always wondered where to place, and I've just been tossing it into Sleight of Hand for a little extra hate reduction. After running 5-mans with our regular group, I found it to be worthless, since my friend holds hate without issue. So, I decided to give Ghostly Strike a chance. (Keep in mind, I mainly PvE, and am focused on 5-mans right now.)

Now, I don't have any sword in my inventory, so I don't have a good slow weapon to test it with yet, but it did perform with just my Whispering Blade of Slaying (1.9 speed +4 damage enchant). It was outdamaging SS with just the dagger, and it costs 5 less energy. The added 15% dodge was definitely a nice bonus, and if you find yourself having to use it (or SS) in a mutilate build, it's generally because the mob is pounding on you.

I have to say I'm thoroughly impressed with the ability for just 1 talent point. I'd much rather use Ghostly Strike when a mob is facing me and I need more CPs, verse a SS. Shiv is always an option, but it is situational, and worthless when you have a full stack of DP (and running with DP on the OH). Now I can't wait to see what it does with Vanquisher's!

BTW, since I didn't want to bother with another damn button to press, I made a semi-decent macro for using Ghostly Strike with Sinister Strike (since it has a 20 second cool down). Basically, the macro will reset back to Ghostly Strike after 20 seconds since it was last pressed. Since you can get about 5 SS's in with the standard energy regen, it will count up to 5 after using Ghostly Strike, then automatically reset to Ghostly Strike. It's flawed in that, if you hit the macro, then wait like 10 seconds to hit it again, it will reset the counter, and only be on SS #1, but since you're not using it all too often it works well. Basically it comes in handy per fight, or when you have to be clean up in special situations (like that flower guy in Botanica, killing the little flowers). Using castrandom just sucked...

/castsequence reset=20 Ghostly Strike, Sinister Strike, Sinister Strike, Sinister Strike, Sinister Strike, Sinister Strike
#2REDACTED, Posted: Mar 30 2007 at 7:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You shouldnt use SS with Mutilate, shiv if anything to apply poison for muti and envenom. Also, u shudnt ghostly strike with mutilate, it just isnt worth it.
#3 Mar 30 2007 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
Can anyone else add to this? Sounds interesting. I might grab it since i am still leveling and when Ks/CS misses, I get beat up and the extra dodge would help.

Edited, Mar 30th 2007 8:50am by Xaevyn
#4 Mar 30 2007 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
**
426 posts
I can't really say that 15% dodge was that noticeable, but it seemed liked it helped a bit...nothing amazing. But, the fact that it cost 5 less energy, does more damage with that dagger, AND has 15% dodge makes it worth spending my last talent point in. I read that daggers won't see higher damage than a SS, but this just wasn't true in my case.
#5 Mar 30 2007 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
Maybe I'll put my next point there. Right now i am 41/0/13. Just hit 63 and filled out Initiative. I have 7 points left that i haven't decided where i want them. maybe Ghostly Strike and the rest in Vile poisons.

I would rate up if i could Smiley: smile
#6 Mar 30 2007 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
Terrorfiend
*****
12,905 posts
holy crap mutilate+initiatve=more CP than you can shake a stick at! lol
#7 Mar 30 2007 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
**
426 posts
Quote:
holy crap mutilate+initiatve=more CP than you can shake a stick at! lol


I still have Initiative in my build...I thought I was going to take it out when I went into 5-mans, but I open with Garrote most of the time there, so the extra CP is important. I'm usually at 5 CP with Garrote>Mute, so if I wasn't using Garrote anymore (and just using Cheap Shot), I would probably drop it in favor of MoD..still need the points in Sub to get down to Serrated Blades either way (god I love that talent on Bosses!).
#8 Mar 30 2007 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
Ya, it helps when i garrote or when my first Mut doesn't crit. At least when I open with CS->Mut I am pretty much guaranteed 5cp. I think i am going to go for Serrated Blades and Vile Poisons. Im starting to like Envenom.
#9 Mar 30 2007 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
**
426 posts
Sounds like you're heading down the same path I took with my Mute build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0oEMsizVoZVMeo0h

Couple points in FF and 1 point in Camo can be shifted. I'll probably move 2 points out of FF if I get a speed enchant on my boots. Maybe pick Remoreseless back up...dunno yet.

Envenom rocks with Vile. Just don't go using it on boss fights if you don't also have 5/5 Imp Poison and run double deadlys...bosses usually get a SnD, 5pt Rupture rotation from me, unless they are immune to bleeds, then I SnD, 5pt Evis and keep the deadly charges ticking away at 292 a tick. Standard elite mobs get a Garrote > Mute > KS > Mute (x2 if needed) > Envenom.

I really love the finisher options with Mutilate...it's so refreshing from a Combat build.
#10 Mar 30 2007 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
That looks pretty close to what I was shooting for. Remorseless is a godsend while leveling. I can't believe I never picked that up when I was combat pre-54. I also love Quick Recovery. Saved me and the group a few times.

Mutilate is more nerve racking for me when something doesn't go smoothly but when it does go right, I love it.
#11 Mar 30 2007 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
i have this and hemo, and i can tell it's pretty usefull combination, i recommend you to get it, that dodge is very nice
#12 Mar 30 2007 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,538 posts
Quote:
holy crap mutilate+initiatve=more CP than you can shake a stick at! lol

Better even, with Mutilate you get Seal Fate, so your Ambushes generally get you 3 CPs. Minimum of 2 with Remorseless. 95 times out of 100 you can get 5 CPs on your first Mutilate with 2/2 Remorseless and 3/3 Initiative.
#13 Mar 30 2007 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
**
591 posts
First off, nice macro djmob, I think I'll use that but substitute hemo for SS.

Ghostly strike does 125% wpn dam, so it will outdamage SS only if the max wpn dam is greater than 164(Whispering Blade of Slaying) w/AP greater than 1650 at lvl 70.

(max base wpn dam + wpn enchant + AP dam) * 1.25 = max GS dam
(164 + 4 + 224)*1.25 = 490

(max base wpn dam + wpn enchant + AP dam + 98) = max SS dam
(164 + 4 + 224 + 98) = 490

Calculated min dam as well using same formulas:
min wpn dam is 109 + 4 = 113, so

421 min GS dam
435 min SS dam

421-490 GS dam
435-490 SS dam

Crits are effected the same by lethality so no need to calculate that. Basically identical dam, GS is slightly better max dam provided 1650+ AP and with group buffs(or when those trinkets proc or are used) you should always have more AP than 1650. This seems a good use of energy(same cost as imp SS, 40 energy) for the mut/sub specd rogue.
However, must mut specd rogues don't have enough base dodge for this to really be effective. Sub spec with 5/5 in dodge I have 47% unbuffed(not specd that way now, but spec that way for farming occasionally), so 15% more puts me at 62% every 20sec. If attacked by multiple mobs I'll try to use it with Moroes dodge trinket(2min cooldown) which is another 15% = 77% dodge without using evasion. Granted this is only for 7sec, but nice to have when evasion is on cooldown. Combined with Setup you can generate some CPs as well, especially with multiple mobs attacking you(just make sure they are all in front of you). Grp buffed(ie Blessing of Kings, Gift of Wild) I have over 50% dodge, so pop evasion and I'm completely unhittable by melee in front of me. This is not true in Heroic dungeons, some attacks are not able to be dodged, but for normal dungeons it can be a good skill if you are the only melee alive and can tank a boss for the last 20% dam because he's just not hitting you.


Edited, Mar 30th 2007 4:17pm by mahlerite
#14 Mar 30 2007 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
**
591 posts
I apparently can't type, I mispelled the name that I gave credit for coming up with a nice macro. Correct spelling is DJmob, not whatever i typed. Sorry about that, no offense intended.
#15 Mar 30 2007 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,538 posts
Not quite that simple. Ghostly Strike is not normalized, so it will outdamage Sinister Strike in virtually all situations simply because it will get a higher multiplier (if your MH weapon speed is lower than the normalized speed you are RETARDED!).
#16 Mar 30 2007 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
**
591 posts
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by normalized. Are you referring to how AP is addded? If you could please post what the dam formula should be or link to 1, I would apreciate it.
#17 Mar 30 2007 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
Terrorfiend
*****
12,905 posts
well AP damage is always

AP/14*weaponspeed

In SS, weapon speed is set depending on the weapon. Swords, for example, is 2.5 seconds no matter what.

Daggers is 1.7, dunno about the others.

So if you have a sword with a speed of 2.7, the speed in the equation for SS still uses 2.5 seconds, while in ghostly strikes it uses 2.7 seconds.
#18 Mar 30 2007 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
**
591 posts
Thank you, so 1650ap for SS is going to be (1650/14*1.7), not 1.9 spd of the dagger used in above post. So 200 instead of 224 for ap dam in SS calculation. Corrected #s are:

421-490 GS dam
411-466 SS dam

So dam differece is more significant than I realized. That's good to know, since I use GS in my sub build with the Aldor exalted sword(2.6 wpn spd).

Thanks again for the clarification.
#19 Mar 30 2007 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,538 posts
Yeah, the normalization of weapon speed completely changed how damage was calculated, moreso than you'd think. The Barman Shanker used to outperform raid level epic daggers simply because it was slower and got more of a bonus to AP.
#20 Mar 30 2007 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
**
426 posts
This is why I think I'm seeing such good results with GS (the 1.9 on Whispering Blade of Slaying). Anyway, it looks to be a good pick up for any Mute/Sub rogue that wants to get down to Elusiveness or Serrated Blades.
#21 Mar 30 2007 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,538 posts
Serrated Blades isn't really worth the points for a Mutilate build, there are more fun things in the Assassination tree. But yeah, I'd say it's definitely worth the point.

I used it a great many times when I needed to tank something for a bit (nearly dead mob/boss and the tank bites the dust). It's also a powerful solo ability that will reduce downtime by taking less damage, and deal decent damage even with a dagger.

Hard to go wrong for one point, too.
#22 Apr 02 2007 at 5:31 AM Rating: Decent
**
426 posts
I don't know man...Serrated Blades to me is better than a lot of other choices if you are going down Sub for Imp Sap. If I didn't need Imp Sap for 5-mans, I would probably go down Combat, so picking up Serrated Blades helps with my damage not only on regular melee and Mutilates, but also with Rupturing bosses. Mutilate producing so much CP makes it a breeze to keep a SnD/Rupture cycle going, and Serrated Blades helps both of those finishers keep me a lot stronger in good steady damage.

While Envenom is a great ability, it's not a great thing to use on a boss if you want to keep those Deadly charges ticking away, and Eviscerate really isn't that great with only a 20% crit rate. At 20% crit rate, not taking what a boss may have for resilience (sp? do bosses get it?), it about evens out in damage with Rupture with SB. But SB also helps my SnD damage...350 armor is like 2-2.5% I think (making it on par with 2 points in Murder for melee attacks, except it's on EVERYTHING with even the slightest amount of armor). Also, using a SnD/Rupture rotation keeps me smoothly below the hate line, without fear of a big crit turning the boss my direction, and flooring me.

The only thing I'd really like to pick back up in the Assassination tree is Remorseless, and I'll do that when I get a speed enchant on my boots and drop FF (the new one with both minor speed and Agility is expensive!). I guess I'm just a finisher w****, which is I love Mute build so much lol.
#23 Apr 02 2007 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,538 posts
Quote:
picking up Serrated Blades helps with my damage not only on regular melee and Mutilates, but also with Rupturing bosses. Mutilate producing so much CP makes it a breeze to keep a SnD/Rupture cycle going, and Serrated Blades helps both of those finishers keep me a lot stronger in good steady damage.

For a Mutilate spec, Envenom is by far the best finisher in every case I've come across. The idea behind Rupture is that you want non-mitigated damage. Envenom does exactly that, and does a lot more of it.

Quote:
While Envenom is a great ability, it's not a great thing to use on a boss if you want to keep those Deadly charges ticking away

They re-proc in seconds, and you'll only lose maybe 100-200 damage from the poison ticks on average, if that much.

Quote:
and Eviscerate really isn't that great with only a 20% crit rate.

20%? I've got 23% decked out in virtually nothing but AP gear, and I know many people who are pushing 30%.

Quote:
But SB also helps my SnD damage

Why on earth are you using SnD as a Assassination/Sub rogue? Only real use for it in that build is putting your first CP into it so you can get Find Weakness early.

Quote:
Also, using a SnD/Rupture rotation keeps me smoothly below the hate line, without fear of a big crit turning the boss my direction, and flooring me.

I don't mean to sound like an ***, but L2Feint. If you're gimping your DPS to not pull threat, either you have a crappy tank or you're not feinting enough.

Quote:
The only thing I'd really like to pick back up in the Assassination tree is Remorseless

Imp. KS and Quick Recovery are both great talents to have. Master Poisoner would be amazing if I had the points to spare. The Assassination tree offers a great deal of very useful talents. These talents, in my opinion, provide a great deal more utility than a 2% increase in physical damage.

Edited, Apr 2nd 2007 11:22am by Nooblestick
#24 Apr 02 2007 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
**
426 posts
Do I really have to go through this?

Quote:
For a Mutilate spec, Envenom is by far the best finisher in every case I've come across. The idea behind Rupture is that you want non-mitigated damage. Envenom does exactly that, and does a lot more of it. They re-proc in seconds, and you'll only lose maybe 100-200 damage from the poison ticks on average, if that much.


They do NOT reproc in seconds (a few may, not a full stack), even dual wielding, even with SnD up, because I do not have Imp Poisons. I'm playing my build with great effectiveness. Letting the Deadly Charges continue to tick on bosses with Vile is big. They are getting 292 a tick, 1 tick is almost 300 damage, not 100-200.


Quote:
20%? I've got 23% decked out in virtually nothing but AP gear, and I know many people who are pushing 30%.


I'm sorry, am I a liar or something? I mean, usually people lie about how awesome their crit rate is. Yes, 20%, I don't have every night of my life to get the best gear in the world, but what I have I think is good (mostly blues). I also have gear that I can swap out for higher AP, but it sacrifices a bit of crit and hit.


Quote:
Why on earth are you using SnD as a Assassination/Sub rogue? Only real use for it in that build is putting your first CP into it so you can get Find Weakness early.


Because my daggers still acount for a lot of white damage, and using SnD is a great way to put out steady dps for a couple CP's. By the time Rupture wears off, I have hit 5 CP's again. You underestimate the damage produced by 2 hard hitting daggers.



Quote:
I don't mean to sound like an ***, but L2Feint. If you're gimping your DPS to not pull threat, either you have a crappy tank or you're not feinting enough.


Feint still uses energy, and I'm not gimping my damage - you're assuming I am. Mutilate is not the best build at energy management, so you have to work with it. Assuming my friend is a crappy tank is really stupid. He's tanked Byakko as a WAR/NIN, going untouched. Not sure if you know what that means, but tanking in WoW is nothing compared to tanking gods FFXI. He is a master at this game, and I rarely have an issue with aggro when he's around. Still, there IS times when I can pull hate with some serious crit spike damage. Mutilate alone is quite a spike...tack on a crit evis or evenom after that, and you just might nab that sucker for half a second...and that's all you need to have your face hit the floor. Your DPS tends to suck when you're on a first name basis with dirt.


Quote:
Imp. KS and Quick Recovery are both great talents to have. Master Poisoner would be amazing if I had the points to spare. The Assassination tree offers a great deal of very useful talents. These talents, in my opinion, provide a great deal more utility than a 2% increase in physical damage.


Yeah, I have Imp KS, I have Quick Recovery (why do you think I don't have these?). Master Poisoner is amazing how? I'll say it again, Remorseless is the ONLY thing that interests me in the Assassination tree that I do not currently have.
#25 Apr 02 2007 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,606 posts
If you have serated blades you should be using a rupture and SnD cycle and letting your deadly poison tick. For simple tank and spank fights you can often apply instant poison to one of your weapons and deadly to the other and keep up a full stack of deadly via SnD and Mutilate.

Assuming 1500ap and 30% crit rate, 3/3 serated blades and 5/5 vile poisons, rupture will do more damage than a 5 point envenom by a few points.

5 point rupture = 1768 damage over 16 seconds
5 point envenom = 1755 average damage instantly (2700 crits at 30% with 1350 hits at 70%)

Rupture gains a bonus of 24% of your total ap added on to it's damage - 1 point and 5 point ruptures both get the same amount of bonus damage. Envenom gains 3% per CP. Rupture cannot be partially or fully resisted, though I've rarely seen this occur with envenom. In either case, if you have both tallents, it's generally more favorable to allow your deadly poisons to tick and use your CP for a SnD/rupture cycle.
#26 Apr 02 2007 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
**
510 posts
I agree and disagree with both of you.

You should have SnD up at all times. With the CP generation of Mutilate, this is quite easy.

Why would fighting bosses be so different from trash that you wouldn't use Envenom? When dual wielding vile and having SnD up you will be getting 5 stacks in no time. Eviscierate and Rupture (assuming no serrated blades) are not even close in the amount of damage you will be doing. Particularly with CB thrown in there...you are going to get more DPS from using your Envenom.

If you are pulling aggro, you should be feinting more. You feint ahead of time so if you do crit a bunch you don't pull aggro. You and your tank should both have the KTM threat meter so you know if you are getting close. That way if he is the tanking god that you think he is...you can see how far ahead he is and feint accordingly.

Remorseless is a waste of points once you hit 70...I don't know you would be interested in it.

Also, another tip is if you have 2 pieces of assassanation and quick recovery, go ahead and use Kidney Shot on bosses. You get the haste effect and recover most of that energy back.

If you get the attention of the boss you have evasion and Vanish. But really, get that threat meter and you can see exactly what you need to be doing to keep aggro on the tank (whether they are awesome or average).

Edited, Apr 2nd 2007 1:21pm by Phaltruism
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 150 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (150)