On my paladin, I was asked to heal for uld. The warrior was 2nd in the DPS charts, but he couldn't hold aggro at all. After a while I started looking and noticing none of the targets had sunder armor on them. Well he might be using his rage on other stuff, like revenge, but he should have still had a few up. So I asked him "why don't you use sunder." He responds with "b/c I'm not in D stance." Hmmm..."why aren't you in def stance?" "b/c it sux".
At this point the group says "you're gonna hate end-game then." I respond with "Heres the deal, kick him or I leave" (neither of us were GL). I was tired of spending the extra down-time rezzing people, b/c I'd have to rez the rogue or the hunter about every other fight. They told him to start using D stance and sunder, so I figured it'd be fine. Next fight - no sunders - hunter pulls aggro and dies - I rez (to be polite) - I hearth and leave group.
The warrior messages me going "U r a ##&#&" and I said "dude, if you can't hold aggro, I'm not gonna heal for you." His response to why he can't hold aggro? "It's not that I can't hold aggro, its that you can't heal." I'm sorry, but healing up 7 targets isn't going to work (2 pets plus 5 players).
So, my question is to all of you warriors is - if you made a healer alt, what would you have done?
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I agree, a poor response by that warrior. Heck, I use sunder armor all the time w/o being if defensive stance....
I'd find his guild master, tell them about the warrior.
Don't ever group with them again.
Sunder is not a great threat holder at 70. But from 20-60+ it's your bread and butter for tanking. Defensive stance is a must, if they can't hold agro. And if they refused to switch stances, because they couldn't hold threat, your group leader should have dropped them.
Did you pull threat from healing? And did the 'tank' stay up? That's all a healer really should be focusing on. Maybe a spot heal, here or there; cleaves, aoe, etc...
Don't ever group with them again.
Sunder is not a great threat holder at 70. But from 20-60+ it's your bread and butter for tanking. Defensive stance is a must, if they can't hold agro. And if they refused to switch stances, because they couldn't hold threat, your group leader should have dropped them.
Did you pull threat from healing? And did the 'tank' stay up? That's all a healer really should be focusing on. Maybe a spot heal, here or there; cleaves, aoe, etc...
I'd have pointed out you can use sunder in battle stance too- lol
Sunder in battle stance...
Yes, you can use it. But all it really is doing (in battle stance or berserker stance) is mild threat, and an armor debuf. The armor debuf gives all the other physical damage characters more damage (more threat) too.
Defensive stance gives the natural threat of sunder a boost.
Heroic strike is not a substitute for sunder. And sunder is not a substitute for revenge.
Yes, you can use it. But all it really is doing (in battle stance or berserker stance) is mild threat, and an armor debuf. The armor debuf gives all the other physical damage characters more damage (more threat) too.
Defensive stance gives the natural threat of sunder a boost.
Heroic strike is not a substitute for sunder. And sunder is not a substitute for revenge.
I also have a healer, and take great pleasure in that I can enforce my ideology on grouping on a group by leaving, or refusing to heal certain players and causing death. You did okay by my book!
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Sunder is not a great threat holder at 70. But from 20-60+ it's your bread and butter for tanking.
Off topic, but if sunder is not your bread and butter for tanking post 60, what is?
I think of myself as a decent tank...I use all the abilities at my disposal...revenge/shield block, demo shout/TC, zerker rage/whirlwind, disarm etc frequently, but more than anything i use sunder
(genuine question, not trolling)
Scholar
33 posts
Shield Slam and Revenge for single target
Thunderclap and Demoralizing Shout for multiple targets, but also to add more mitigation on single targets
Shield Bash also adds quite a bit of aggro
5 Sunders and Devastate Spam...I admittedly don't know about this one being specced 8/0/XX for Improved Thunderclap...but it sounds more like trying to DPS
5 Sunders on a target is always nice for all the other Physical Classes ofc as they get moderate boosts to dps
Thunderclap and Demoralizing Shout for multiple targets, but also to add more mitigation on single targets
Shield Bash also adds quite a bit of aggro
5 Sunders and Devastate Spam...I admittedly don't know about this one being specced 8/0/XX for Improved Thunderclap...but it sounds more like trying to DPS
5 Sunders on a target is always nice for all the other Physical Classes ofc as they get moderate boosts to dps
I would argue that in a caster group (i.e. warrior/priest, with a lock, mage, and shammy for DPS) you'll get more threat from sunder, simply because you're going to do more damage in comparison. Even a little more extra than rogues (if they have damaging poisons on) or ret paladins, since their damage is holy.
But thanks for the confirmation that I didn't do the wrong thing. On my warrior I once left a group b/c a priest kept casting PW:Shield on me during trash fights, and I asked her to stop and the response was "I have a 70 warrior I know better than you" so I just left (prot warrior, all my rage gen is from D)...not knowing is one thing, being told and throwing it in my face makes me leave.
But thanks for the confirmation that I didn't do the wrong thing. On my warrior I once left a group b/c a priest kept casting PW:Shield on me during trash fights, and I asked her to stop and the response was "I have a 70 warrior I know better than you" so I just left (prot warrior, all my rage gen is from D)...not knowing is one thing, being told and throwing it in my face makes me leave.
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Sunder is not a great threat holder at 70. But from 20-60+ it's your bread and butter for tanking.
Sunder is not a great threat holder at 70. But from 20-60+ it's your bread and butter for tanking.
Off topic, but if sunder is not your bread and butter for tanking post 60, what is?
I think of myself as a decent tank...I use all the abilities at my disposal...revenge/shield block, demo shout/TC, zerker rage/whirlwind, disarm etc frequently, but more than anything i use sunder
Sunder is mediocre for threat. It's static, it doesn't scale with gear. Having 300+ shield block value (easy as pie to get) and shield slam makes shield slam hugely superior for threat, even on a 6 second cooldown.
Sunder just doesn't deal enough threat alone to be spammed more than 5 times, and then only to get devastate threat in line with the rest of your abilities.
sunder takes GCD, and I'd rather spend the rage on heroic strike, shield block, demo shout, thunderclap, etc...
It's a good baseline for dps to wait for, if they do not have a Threat Meter installed. But if you do some studies on what deals threat more efficiently. Sunder is not one of them.
"Wait for X sunders" has been a tanks mantra for many fights until blizz made dps class's deal more and more threat. Do you remember when warlocks in the 2.0.0 patch came out? Had you tried to do instances with them around that time, you would have found out that they dealt way too much threat because of the way the rating system gave level 60 locks a huge damage increase. And the result is they skated to 70 quite easily, and found a huge gear gap.
--- anyways ---
Sunder has a static threat value that doesn't scale with gear. I still use it. It's just not a primary threat builder for me.
But back to the behavior of this warrior...
Some people are still learning and can be fixed through some constructive criticism, usually best given as whisper tips.
Some cannot. This guy sounds like one of those, remember him and just don't group with him.
The flip side of the coin is always play your toon well and you will be remembered and find yourself getting all the instancing/raiding you care to have.
Cheers!
Some people are still learning and can be fixed through some constructive criticism, usually best given as whisper tips.
Some cannot. This guy sounds like one of those, remember him and just don't group with him.
The flip side of the coin is always play your toon well and you will be remembered and find yourself getting all the instancing/raiding you care to have.
Cheers!
I had a similar thing happen with a bad warrior in a Sunken Temple run a few nights ago. He was going to be the MT and I would offtank. He's level 56 I was 52 at the time.
He's won't use a shield (2H only) or go into DS. So basically I took over as MT without even really telling anyone because I was the only one holding the agro.
Some people in the game just have no clue about anything. I've ran ST a lot with my hunter and ran others in my guild in there. I tried telling the group which way to go and how to run the instance but the warrior refused to listen. So then came the sarcasm. He led us all over and then someone asked "Where are we?". My response was "Right where we would have been 10 minutes ago if someone would have listened to what I've been saying". The MT ignored me until later when he made us wipe. Then he'd send me tells asking questions instead of party chat so the others wouldn't see he didn't know a damn thing.
He's won't use a shield (2H only) or go into DS. So basically I took over as MT without even really telling anyone because I was the only one holding the agro.
Some people in the game just have no clue about anything. I've ran ST a lot with my hunter and ran others in my guild in there. I tried telling the group which way to go and how to run the instance but the warrior refused to listen. So then came the sarcasm. He led us all over and then someone asked "Where are we?". My response was "Right where we would have been 10 minutes ago if someone would have listened to what I've been saying". The MT ignored me until later when he made us wipe. Then he'd send me tells asking questions instead of party chat so the others wouldn't see he didn't know a damn thing.
Yeah... that really sucks. Right now i'm only 44, but I can manage aggro by just DPSing. In fact, i nearly triple the 2nd highest DPSer in the party. I don't use that many sunders, occasionally 2-3 when the mob is on the healer, or switch to arms and do mocking blow, but i have no problem DPS tanking.
I've played multiple healers and tanks (feral druids, my warrior) (resto druid, shammy, and priest)
The wonderful thing about being healers is that you can refuse to heal, unless the tank follows your direction. I love it when a stupid tank who can't keep aggro runs into a entire room. I just hearth out of there and /leave group. Yes i know it's sadistic, but hey, if the warrior cant tank, don't let yourself get killed as well.
I've played multiple healers and tanks (feral druids, my warrior) (resto druid, shammy, and priest)
The wonderful thing about being healers is that you can refuse to heal, unless the tank follows your direction. I love it when a stupid tank who can't keep aggro runs into a entire room. I just hearth out of there and /leave group. Yes i know it's sadistic, but hey, if the warrior cant tank, don't let yourself get killed as well.
I would never group with that warrior again.
But if was one of the other party members, I might not ever group with you again either.
"kick him or I go" isn't exactly the most diplomatic approach to dealing with a bad pug member. And bolting on the party isn't either.
Maybe there's more to the story than you've told us, and your actions were justified. But as the story stands, sounds like you were being almost as hard-headed as your tank.
There are two potential bad additions to PuGs.
1. The guy that doesn't know is role
2. The guy that expects the group to run as smoothly as an experienced guild run
But if was one of the other party members, I might not ever group with you again either.
"kick him or I go" isn't exactly the most diplomatic approach to dealing with a bad pug member. And bolting on the party isn't either.
Maybe there's more to the story than you've told us, and your actions were justified. But as the story stands, sounds like you were being almost as hard-headed as your tank.
There are two potential bad additions to PuGs.
1. The guy that doesn't know is role
2. The guy that expects the group to run as smoothly as an experienced guild run
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"kick him or I go" isn't exactly the most diplomatic approach to dealing with a bad pug member. And bolting on the party isn't either.
This is after, in party chat, the guy refuses to use D stance despite our arguements, and after wiping twice on trash I figured there was a problem.
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In fact, i nearly triple the 2nd highest DPSer in the party. I don't use that many sunders, occasionally 2-3 when the mob is on the healer, or switch to arms and do mocking blow, but i have no problem DPS tanking.
In my opinion your roll as a Tank isn't about DPS, it's about keeping mobs off everyone else. I've been in a few groups where the tank wants DPS so he'll stick with a 2H sword. No shield = more heals required by the healer = greater mana usage...not saying you use a 2H but the ones that do annoy me.
If the group is short on DPS class then you need to find a new group to tank for.
15 posts
I have a 70 war and my alt is a 36 priest. I was in a group last night SM armory. now Ive been playing wow since the original release and although i dont know every thing i have a very good idea of how the group dynamic should work with various class make ups. After raiding Kara with my war then coming to sm to heal its almost a joke but still all the more frustrating when you run with straight noobs on wheels. The "tank" was just throwing up random marks on the mobs and then pulling. never the same marks twice. star moon square.. then x diamond skull. no idea what he had in mind. then he would tell hunter to trap one for CC... by the way we had a mage... who had no idea had to sheep pull. basicly it was a mess all around. i couldnt help but laugh as the tank ran in the mage sheeped the pally aoe broke the sheep and the hunter pet hit his own trap evry.. single..mob...after the hunter left because they were all fighting. we cleared to herrod and decided to 4 man him.. tank mage lock and me. amazingly we managed to burn him down and beat him with prcise healing and the tank actually doing a decent job of holding aggro .. on another nub note.. scarlet legs drop.. no one can use so its a greed roll..i win and go to loot to D/E the lock yells at me that he would pay me 40g for them.. not for an alt or anyhting but so he could d/e them himself... feel free to lol for a minute i will wait to continue................... after that mess.. they , rather then hearth, decide to run out into the respawns. now theres4 of us and about 5 mobs chasin them.. so i said F that im hearthin and savin my self the time and money. a minute later i get whispers from the tank and lock cursin me out because i didnt try to save them from certain death...and called me a noob.. moral of the story..? who the hell knows. even noobs think they know best and some dont wanna learn. and some are just dee dee deeee's ..pugs ftl../uninvite ftw
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and some are just dee dee deeee's
lol!
I have tanked every BC 5 man instance with a 2h and DPS gear.
Saying that it's stupid or impossible is just ignorant.
Shields do not hold agro, unless you are prot spec'd enough to get shield slam. Otherwise they're nerfing threat and dps. Mortal Strike + Defensive stance + 2h is more threat for your average warrior, and you lose about 10% damage reduction with no shield. Asking an arms warrior to put on a shield is saying to them that they shouldn't be tanking. 1h + MS = lame. 1h + BT = mediocre but more effective than MS.
As an arms/fury warrior the time to use a shield is when your group knows to wait for you to put a good chunk of agro on the table first, before dpsing or heavy healing. And unless you are prot spec'd, shields don't provide a lot of mitigation or reduction on their own. Around 5-10% block, 10% reduction, and shield block values of 100 or less. Say at most 11% total mitigation, with out specing for it. While this may be a bit more effective for a shaman, or paladin, who both can cast to dps/threat and at range. Warriors just don't get much out of shields with out specing into them.
If your reducing the semi-"tank"'s dps, you are reducing their ability to hold agro. Now it may come as a surprise to some, but killing a mob faster requires less healing many times. Taking the time to let the mob(s) get some abilities off, potentially heal, fear, trap, root, slow, or clear threat tables, can be more of a problem than worrying about a small amount of extra spike healing required for the tank.
And never pug... Always run as a guild. Maybe pickup a 5th who is the pugger. Which can potentially lead to new friendships, guild mates, and good instance mates. Doing otherwise leads to repair bills, and frustration. If your guild sucks, drop them and find another that is better. Progression.
Saying that it's stupid or impossible is just ignorant.
Shields do not hold agro, unless you are prot spec'd enough to get shield slam. Otherwise they're nerfing threat and dps. Mortal Strike + Defensive stance + 2h is more threat for your average warrior, and you lose about 10% damage reduction with no shield. Asking an arms warrior to put on a shield is saying to them that they shouldn't be tanking. 1h + MS = lame. 1h + BT = mediocre but more effective than MS.
As an arms/fury warrior the time to use a shield is when your group knows to wait for you to put a good chunk of agro on the table first, before dpsing or heavy healing. And unless you are prot spec'd, shields don't provide a lot of mitigation or reduction on their own. Around 5-10% block, 10% reduction, and shield block values of 100 or less. Say at most 11% total mitigation, with out specing for it. While this may be a bit more effective for a shaman, or paladin, who both can cast to dps/threat and at range. Warriors just don't get much out of shields with out specing into them.
If your reducing the semi-"tank"'s dps, you are reducing their ability to hold agro. Now it may come as a surprise to some, but killing a mob faster requires less healing many times. Taking the time to let the mob(s) get some abilities off, potentially heal, fear, trap, root, slow, or clear threat tables, can be more of a problem than worrying about a small amount of extra spike healing required for the tank.
And never pug... Always run as a guild. Maybe pickup a 5th who is the pugger. Which can potentially lead to new friendships, guild mates, and good instance mates. Doing otherwise leads to repair bills, and frustration. If your guild sucks, drop them and find another that is better. Progression.
4 posts
I also have some question about whether a warrior can only be a "good" tank and help his guild if he is full proc spec. I have been primarily an arms/fury DPS warrior with dual wield all the way up through 70. I do carry about 16 pts in proc, mainly for shield specialization,enhanced armor and shield slam/bash for those times when I do tank, and I've acquired a pretty good set of tanking gear that gives me about 12K armor and 11K HP (unbuffed) when needed...maybe not as good as some but more than adequate. But I've elected to stay DPS specced mainly because I'm usually on pretty late at night when relatively few other people are on, which makes it hard to get a group for instances on any consistent basis. I usually wind up spending most of my time soloing or doing 2-3 man groups, so it hasn't make much sense to me to be proc spec when questing that way. Truth is that many times it's better to kill several mobs quickly with DPS rather than killing more slowly with sword and board just to take less damage with a shield (while extending the time required to kill.)
However, I have run a number of the Outland instances as a main tank when guildies or others have asked me, and I have no trouble getting and holding aggro, even against the big bosses. I've tanked most every boss, including Ony, in the old world, and I just tanked Blackheart the Inciter from Shadow Lab the other day (and did pretty well, or as well as anyone can when he does his MC tricks.) In all cases, I got and held aggro just fine. In fact, one time I was asked to off-tank Ony while a "full proc" warrior was supposed to be main tank, and the MT wound up asking me not to use my enhanced threat skills like taunt and sunder and revenge because I was taking aggro on Ony away from him and he couldn't figure out why. So I haven't found it to be the case that I need to be full proc to do well as a main tank. The truth is, while you can invest some talent pts in the Proc build that do increase threat (e.g., Defiance and Devastate, with the latter requiring 40 pts invested to even get), many of the additional pts invested in full proc are really just about reducing the cost of rage by a pt or two or reducing the CD time for some skills to come back up by a second or two. But when I'm getting whacked by a boss as I tank, my rage regenerates real quick anyway just from getting hit so much, so saving a pt or two in rage cost or getting the skill back up a second earlier is pretty irrelevant.
I don't claim to be the game's best tank, but I've gotten lots of compliments for my tanking (and requests for future runs) from other group and raid members, even those who initially dismissed me as a tank because I wasn't full proc and groaned when I aswered "arms/fury" to that inevitable question about how I'm specced. So I just don't think that full proc is necessary to tank higher level instances, especially with good gear, high armor and HP ratings and good defense rating - all of which I have, even though I am still more DPS than proc. Maybe that will change in running the heroic modes, and I may respecc some then. But for now, I'm doing fine the way I am. I'd be interested in what other warriors think.
However, I have run a number of the Outland instances as a main tank when guildies or others have asked me, and I have no trouble getting and holding aggro, even against the big bosses. I've tanked most every boss, including Ony, in the old world, and I just tanked Blackheart the Inciter from Shadow Lab the other day (and did pretty well, or as well as anyone can when he does his MC tricks.) In all cases, I got and held aggro just fine. In fact, one time I was asked to off-tank Ony while a "full proc" warrior was supposed to be main tank, and the MT wound up asking me not to use my enhanced threat skills like taunt and sunder and revenge because I was taking aggro on Ony away from him and he couldn't figure out why. So I haven't found it to be the case that I need to be full proc to do well as a main tank. The truth is, while you can invest some talent pts in the Proc build that do increase threat (e.g., Defiance and Devastate, with the latter requiring 40 pts invested to even get), many of the additional pts invested in full proc are really just about reducing the cost of rage by a pt or two or reducing the CD time for some skills to come back up by a second or two. But when I'm getting whacked by a boss as I tank, my rage regenerates real quick anyway just from getting hit so much, so saving a pt or two in rage cost or getting the skill back up a second earlier is pretty irrelevant.
I don't claim to be the game's best tank, but I've gotten lots of compliments for my tanking (and requests for future runs) from other group and raid members, even those who initially dismissed me as a tank because I wasn't full proc and groaned when I aswered "arms/fury" to that inevitable question about how I'm specced. So I just don't think that full proc is necessary to tank higher level instances, especially with good gear, high armor and HP ratings and good defense rating - all of which I have, even though I am still more DPS than proc. Maybe that will change in running the heroic modes, and I may respecc some then. But for now, I'm doing fine the way I am. I'd be interested in what other warriors think.
It sounds like you tried to give the warrior some helpful tips on his role and he didn't want to hear it. Hopefully he will come to understand the role for warriors as tanks in instances. Otherwise, he will not like get invited to too many instances.
I don't blame you for your actions. It is very frustrating when your group wipes on trash mobs. I'm just glad to see that you at least tried to give the guy some feed back before leaving the group.
I currently play a lvl 62 warrior. I'm mainly specced arms/MS with about 15 points in prot. Being specced this way I find that I do well either as a tank or as an off tank. I find that I don't need to be fully prot. specced to do my job. However, when I tank, I always use a shield. Imp. shield block can be a life saver.
I was in a pug yesterday where everyone was arguing and this frost mage decided that she would do the pulling. Several times I said that we should get organized and that I should do the pulling. The mage decided not to listen and would keep pulling. Adjusting to the situation, I decided to let her have the aggro and focused on taking aggro from the other people in the group. Much the same way a healer will refuse to heal stupid tanks. Even after dieing twice, the mage still decided to pull. Finally, the party leader just booted her.
I don't blame you for your actions. It is very frustrating when your group wipes on trash mobs. I'm just glad to see that you at least tried to give the guy some feed back before leaving the group.
I currently play a lvl 62 warrior. I'm mainly specced arms/MS with about 15 points in prot. Being specced this way I find that I do well either as a tank or as an off tank. I find that I don't need to be fully prot. specced to do my job. However, when I tank, I always use a shield. Imp. shield block can be a life saver.
I was in a pug yesterday where everyone was arguing and this frost mage decided that she would do the pulling. Several times I said that we should get organized and that I should do the pulling. The mage decided not to listen and would keep pulling. Adjusting to the situation, I decided to let her have the aggro and focused on taking aggro from the other people in the group. Much the same way a healer will refuse to heal stupid tanks. Even after dieing twice, the mage still decided to pull. Finally, the party leader just booted her.
A wise man once said "You gank it you tank it".
DPSers gotta learn to control agro as much as tanks need to learn to hold it. A few expensive repair bills may crack thru some thick skulls, though there are some VERY thick skulls out there.
Cheers!
DPSers gotta learn to control agro as much as tanks need to learn to hold it. A few expensive repair bills may crack thru some thick skulls, though there are some VERY thick skulls out there.
Cheers!
You warrior haters should check out my post New Way To Tank and come up with a new plan. You can't blame the warrior because he doesn't follow your little formula exactly in every instance. It's seriously the most boring job in the game, and warriors are belittled constantly by the rest of the party.
When i tank Shattered Halls, or anything majorly in need of multi mob aggro. I don't even bother with Sunders, Spam Thunder Clap + Cleave, and Demo is obviously on all of them. Shattered halls goes by really quick when everyone can safely AoE on every pull.
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