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Are the Atheists or the Religious a bunch o' fools?Follow

#52 May 13 2004 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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My opinion:
There is a God, a creator, a single entity which started "our" existance. But I don't think that he (just using he out of simplicity) necessarily loves us, likes us or wants us to love him. Look at parents, they created you. But there are parents who beat their kids, abuse them, use them for their own needs. Prolly a flaw passed through the craftsmanship of our creator. I dont think any "God" is compassionate or loving when he lets the cries of children fill the air in the night.
#53 May 13 2004 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
The thing about fabricated stories is taht these Stories usually tell more about the People than history ever will. If you need a further explanation read On Fairy Stories by J.R.R. Tolkien. ^^


He was saying that by looking at a cultures Fairy Tales you can learn quite a bit about that culture. What things are important to them. What they believed. What things were "good", or "bad" in their society. However, the underlying fact is that he's asuming that the Tales are generated by the people (not the other way around). Thus, the tales tell us about those people.

See the parallel? The tales in the Bible are made up stories that tell us a lot about the ancient Jews. We can figure out what kind of people would make up those kinds of stories, and that has value. They are no more true then any other set of fairy tales.

The Jews didn't start with a bible and God, and that made them the way they were. They developed a set of rules and ideas, and then created the Bible and God to record them and legitimize them. This is the same process that all early cultures did. The Babylonians had a whole processsion of gods that were created by each set of rulers and embodied the ideas of the culture at the time. Same with the Egyptians. Same with the Mayans. Same with every ancient culture we've ever studied.

So why accept that Ra is a fictional Egyptian God, but Yehweh is "real"? That's the point I'm making. There is no reason to other then one's own belief. And that belief was instilled purely because someone else with belief told you it was true. You've seen absolutely no more evidence of the existence of God then you have of the existence of Thor, but many people believe in one but not the other. Why?


So no. Agnostics and Athiests are not fools. Quite the opposite. They're the realists. Religious people are the fools. They've been "fooled" into believing something which has absolutely no basis. They've been "fooled" into following a set of doctrinal rules that serve no one but the leaders of the church they belong to. The've been "fooled" into giving money and donating time to said church. And worse of all, they've been "fooled" into letting the leaders of said religion make their choices for them. What movies are ok to watch, what words are ok to speak, what thoughts are ok to think...

To give someone else that much control over your own thoughts is foolish.
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#54 May 13 2004 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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My husband is an Athiest and I'm not, I'm a Christain. We are perfectly happy and I don't impose my beliefs upon him and he doesn't me. Every person has the right to believe whatever they wish. No one is ignorant for their beliefs. To each his own.
#55 May 14 2004 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
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To me that is backwards, God is a caring loving father, instead, we are the runaway children.


Runaway!!!!!! HEHE.

I never ran from god.. how could I, he was never no where to be found when I was an innocent child lookin for him!

But as Smasharoo said, believing in HIM is the same as SANTA.

Anyways, if the god thingy werks for you, and it helps you to get thru life, great! I do fine without it!

BTW... I devoted my youth, to studies of theology, in the end, I knew the truth, I became like Soloman. The more he learned, the more he knew he knew nothing at all! Soloman, the utimate agnostic! If he even existed! :)

End of transmision...
#56 May 14 2004 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Texasbelle, when you say you are a Christian, I assume you read the Bible. Have you read the verse that tells you to "not be unequally yoked"?

If you are a Christian and your husband is an athiest, don't you love him enough to care about his eternal destination and try to witness to him? I am not questioning your love for your husband at all. I just think that love is a decision, an action, not just a feeling or emotion.

To those of you who call Christians fools, and yourselves intelligent, or "realists", the Word of God says that "The fool says in His heart there is no God". I know all the arguments out there against God and Christianity, and the simple fact is that every argument against God is a lie of the devil, told to you so that you would not believe the truth.

You see, Satan knows God exists. He knows that Jesus died for your sins, and because of that, everyone on earth's sins are forgiven. Now, people still go to hell everyday. Why? Because they did not receive their forgiveness and believe in Jesus. Believing that God exists is not enough, belief IN Him is required. Satan and all of hell believes that God exists, but they do not believe in Him. No one goes to hell now for sin, they go for unbelief. So Satan knows that if he can keep you thinking that religion and God are all a fake, a lie, then you will never receive your forgiveness, and you will have the wonderful pleasure of eternal torture along with Him.

And do you know why you don't believe any of this? Because the Bible says that "the god of this world (Satan) has blinded their eyes to the truth".

No one is forcing their beliefs onto you. They aren't holding you down and holding your eyelids open and making you read the Bible. They are sharing with you the truth that they have found. Don't get so angry at us for caring about your souls. You don't get angry at other people for being vocal about things they care about. Just us, and you know why? Because your flesh (your sin nature that we are all born with) fights against anything that has to do with God.


Edited, Fri May 14 10:20:59 2004 by Deathfromtheskies
#57 May 14 2004 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
[snipping a lot of the gobbledegook]

Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
All Gods aside.... the mioricle is life itself.... ever notice ANYthing weird?. odd? stuff that didn't seem like it could possibly happen?.. probably not.... because in the same way taht you'd say tht we can convince ourselves to believe in a God or Magic or wahtever... YOu can convince yourself that there isn't...


Man, most of this is incoherent, but let's try to tease some meaning out of it. Why is life a miracle? As a biologist, it seems pretty straightforward to me.


Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
Auras exist scientifically......


Uhhh, no, they don't. There's no such thing as an aura. What was it someone else called it? Ah, yeah, New Age Psychobabble. No auras. None. Nowhere. Deal.

Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
OUr Third eye is there.. the pituitary gland... It is desighned to pick up the smallest of vibrations....(amongst other things)


Man, how can you be wrong about so many things? The pituitary is NOT designed to pick up vibrations. Your EARS pick up vibrations. Pacinian corpuscles in your skind pick up vibrations. You pituitary secretes hormones.


Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
Everything is a vibration of energy in one form or another...


No it isn't.

Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
they say that electrons can communicate over any distance...


Who says that? Care to provide a reference?

Quote:
Animals can tell which way north is.


They sure can- if the animal is a human with a compass. Did you know that if you put migrating birds in a planetarium and rotate the image of the night sky by 90 degrees, the birds attempt to migrate east instead of north? So they know which way they are supposed to go, based on what they see. But they have no idea of where "north" is. Straightforward explanation; no magic required.

(snip the rest of the mumbo jumbo)

Let's just sum the rest of this up with one little thing: if you can really demonstrate any of this stuff- just one little thing- James Randi will make you a millionaire. And you can even see the money ahead of time.
#58 May 14 2004 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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But as Smasharoo said, believing in HIM is the same as SANTA.


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Soloman, the utimate agnostic


umm... no

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#59 May 14 2004 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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My favorite thing about the whole God/No God debate....is one day.....we'll know for sure.....and one side is gonna look really ******* dumb.
#60 May 14 2004 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
Quote:
But as Smasharoo said, believing in HIM is the same as SANTA.


********

Quote:
Soloman, the utimate agnostic


umm... no



Well, yes, insofar as there is no real-world evidence for either one.

One is deemed acceptable for adults in our society; the other is not.
#61 May 14 2004 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Also, one is based on ancient books that people have based their worship on for millions of years. I have friends from all kinds of religions and we discuss our religion openly and no one calls the other stupid or a fool or anything. I don't know why the people here can't do the same. I'm not criticising your beliefs even though the ones calling me a fool don't believe in anything.

As for having the same kind of faith as a child, well, that's what a Christian is supposed to have. Matthew 18:3 says that unless we become like children then we can not enter heaven. If that makes me a fool in your mind, then so be it.
#62 May 14 2004 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
AngelAthena wrote:
Also, one is based on ancient books that people have based their worship on for millions of years. I have friends from all kinds of religions and we discuss our religion openly and no one calls the other stupid or a fool or anything. I don't know why the people here can't do the same. I'm not criticising your beliefs even though the ones calling me a fool don't believe in anything.

As for having the same kind of faith as a child, well, that's what a Christian is supposed to have. Matthew 18:3 says that unless we become like children then we can not enter heaven. If that makes me a fool in your mind, then so be it.


Well, no writing is millions of years old. Agriculture is less than 20,000 years old, and that preceded writing by a fair bit. I suggest you pick up a copy of Jared Diamond's excellent work, Guns, Germs, and Steel. It is a wonderfully concise history of the spread of technology across the planet.

I did not mean to belittle your faith when I compared it to faith in fictional characters. But in fact, faith is a belief in something without evidence, in things that are not rational. Most Roman Catholics believe that the Host becomes the actual Body of Christ in the miracle of the Eucharist. Is it rational? No, because miracles aren't rational.

But to claim atheists don't believe in anything is at least as incorrect. It is a logical fallacy to claim that atheists have no moral code because they are not religious. In fact, most atheists seem to have a fairly well-developed set of ethics.

#63 May 14 2004 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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Deathfromtheskies wrote:
You see, Satan knows God exists. He knows that Jesus died for your sins, and because of that, everyone on earth's sins are forgiven.

Only if you're baptized! If you die before you're baptized, you die with original sin still on your soul. ^^ Fun thought, no?

Quote:
Now, people still go to hell everyday. Why? Because they did not receive their forgiveness and believe in Jesus. Believing that God exists is not enough, belief IN Him is required. Satan and all of hell believes that God exists, but they do not believe in Him. No one goes to hell now for sin, they go for unbelief.


Actually, no one gets into Heaven right away, according to the Catholics anyway. You go to Purgatory. You have to wait for the second coming of Christ to open the gates to Heaven for you. ^^

And, somewhere in the Bible it doesn't say non-believers go to Hell. All it says, I think, and I don't have quotes to back me up, but I'm relatively certain I'm correct, that if you believe in Jesus as the Saviour, you WILL go to Heaven. But it says nothing about not believing in him meaning you go to Hell.

The way it works, is if you don't believe in Jesus, it then depends entirely on your acts in life and the person you are. Even Atheists, (if there is a Heaven) will go to Heaven if they were good people. Same with Heathens, Pagans, Wiccans, Jewish, Muslims, etc, etc, etc.

(And Jewish and Muslim people believe in the same God (I'm sure we're all aware of that fact), but the former doesn't believe the Son of God has come yet and the latter believes that Jesus was simply a prophet, and not the son of God, and the last prophet was Mohammed. And please, if someone is Jewish or Muslim and I mistated myself, correct me. :)

Quote:
So Satan knows that if he can keep you thinking that religion and God are all a fake, a lie, then you will never receive your forgiveness, and you will have the wonderful pleasure of eternal torture along with Him.


Why'd you capitalize Satan as Him? :)
And, see my above for why this is false.
Unless you're a believer in Dante's works, and the circles of Hell, of which one is Virtuous Nonbelievers.

And my question is this.. so, the Mafia believe in Jesus. Most of them seem very religious (at least according to TV movies!). So, even though they kill people all the time (breaing a commandment!) they believe in and love Jesus and accept him as a personal saviour, so they go to Heaven?

Meanwhile, a kindly old woman who has done nothing but good deeds all her life, but just so happens to be Hindu rather than Christian.. she goes to Hell simply because she was brought up by her parents to be Hindu and she made the choice of religion in her adult life?

Or what about sometime after Jesus was born and died, some person in a third world country that never heard of Jesus in his entire life dies, he goes to Hell because a missionary never made it that far into the jungle?

Now, this is my opinion, but I think not. I am Christian, and my God doesn't do that.
#64 May 14 2004 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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most atheists seem to have a fairly well-developed set of ethics.


really, Why is this?.. do they believe in Karma or somthing.. I've always wondered Why atheists still maintain morals... Is it just genuine fear of reprisal? What would stop them form stealing and lying when ever they could get away wit it?
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#65 May 14 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
Quote:
most atheists seem to have a fairly well-developed set of ethics.


really, Why is this?.. do they believe in Karma or somthing.. I've always wondered Why atheists still maintain morals... Is it just genuine fear of reprisal? What would stop them form stealing and lying when ever they could get away wit it?


I am afraid "Karma or something" counts as some sort of supernatural belief, so that doesn't wash.

Most atheists I know just happen to think that humans have rights that should be respected. It's that simple.

Here's the other side of your question: is a religion all that is keeping you from running amok? If it wasn't for your faith in god, you'd be out stealing and lying whenever you could get away with it?

#66 May 14 2004 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, by saying that atheist don't believe in anything, I meant only that they don't believe in a higher power, God, or any kind of purpose (this is purely going by the atheist that I personally know, and I'm sure it doesn't apply to all atheist). Basically, I don't expect people who have faith in no higher power, to understand mine.

As for ancient, I meant that it has existed for thousands of years. It doesn't have to be millions of years old to be considered ancient.
#67 May 14 2004 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Deathfromtheskies wrote:
the simple fact is that every argument against God is a lie of the devil
The devil is another fictional character.
Deathfromtheskies wrote:
You see, Satan knows God exists.
Translation = 'You see, in my favorite story book, this one fictional character believes that this other fictional character exists.' From a literary standpoint, the stories would not work if the characters didn't believe in each other's existance.
Deathfromtheskies wrote:
If you are a Christian and your husband is an athiest, don't you love him enough to care about his eternal destination and try to witness to him?
Deathfromtheskies wrote:
No one is forcing their beliefs onto you.
Is anyone else's hypocrite alarm going off?
Deathfromtheskies wrote:
Don't get so angry at us for caring about your souls. You don't get angry at other people for being vocal about things they care about. Just us, and you know why? Because your flesh (your sin nature that we are all born with) fights against anything that has to do with God.
You're delusional and attempting to project your delusions on others.

I call UBS on your claim that you care about the souls of the athiests on these boards. You may care about winning an argument, thus, scoring one for your team. You may care about recruiting another sucker. But more than that, no, I'm not buying it. Why would I doubt your sincerity? Because "believers" on this board eventually lose their composure and end up gloating "ha ha, when I die I'll go to heaven and you'll be burning in hell."

I, for one, am not angry with the believers. I'm far too indifferent to your nonsensical babbling.
#68 May 14 2004 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Everything is a vibration of energy in one form or another...




No it isn't.



actually yes it is. Do some research or go to any high school calculus or physics class that is in the Sine wave portion of thier curriculum, thats one of the first things they tell you. That everything can be broken down into a sine wave. I don't remember specific details, but i distinctly remember that, do your own research on the matter before you throw out a "No it isnt."
#69 May 14 2004 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Also, no one judges actions or belief except God. Humans can go by what people say, but we can never say that someone is going to hell or not going to heaven, because we can not fully understand or judge another person. That power is given to God and no one else.

Some people may only have religion to keep them in line, but no more so than other people. Religion usually gives a higher standard of conduct, but that is not certain. No one is perfect. Unfortunately some religions are given a bad name because of a few groups that commit horrible acts in the name of their religion.
#70 May 14 2004 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
Hey, i am a christian and i have no problem with what ne 1 believes in... but ponder this thought for a second...

- if there was no god, the human race would create one.
#71 May 14 2004 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, Kiatrix, just about everything you said was Biblically incorrect. So let me break it down for you.

1. "Only if you're baptized! If you die before you're baptized, you die with original sin still on your soul. ^^ Fun thought, no?"

Not Biblical. Check out the most popular verse ever, John 3:16. "Whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus shall be saved". Not baptized ans saved, just saved. Baptism is great, I have been baptized, but it is merely a public gesture of your faith in God.
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2."Actually, no one gets into Heaven right away, according to the Catholics anyway. You go to Purgatory. You have to wait for the second coming of Christ to open the gates to Heaven for you. ^^".

Not Biblical. Show me purgatory in the Bible.
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3."And, somewhere in the Bible it doesn't say non-believers go to Hell. All it says, I think, and I don't have quotes to back me up, but I'm relatively certain I'm correct, that if you believe in Jesus as the Saviour, you WILL go to Heaven. But it says nothing about not believing in him meaning you go to Hell".

Are you kidding me? If believing in Jesus gets you saved, what are you saved from? HELL. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". Clear as day - sin=death(eternal death, not physical death), God=eternal life.
Psalm 9:17
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."
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4."The way it works, is if you don't believe in Jesus, it then depends entirely on your acts in life and the person you are. Even Atheists, (if there is a Heaven) will go to Heaven if they were good people. Same with Heathens, Pagans, Wiccans, Jewish, Muslims, etc, etc, etc.

(And Jewish and Muslim people believe in the same God (I'm sure we're all aware of that fact), but the former doesn't believe the Son of God has come yet and the latter believes that Jesus was simply a prophet, and not the son of God, and the last prophet was Mohammed. And please, if someone is Jewish or Muslim and I mistated myself, correct me. :)"

Again, not Biblical. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; NO ONE comes to the Father but through me." Plain and simple, Jesus is the way, and the only way.
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5."And my question is this.. so, the Mafia believe in Jesus. Most of them seem very religious (at least according to TV movies!). So, even though they kill people all the time (breaing a commandment!) they believe in and love Jesus and accept him as a personal saviour, so they go to Heaven? "

Jesus that said that you would know His followers by their fruit, and by their love for each other. I don't think that killing is a fruit of God, or an example of His love. So if they continued doing that stuff, I'd say they probably arent saved. Make sure you know that there is a HUGE difference in believing that Jesus existed and was who He said He was and being religious, and actually following Him, obeying Him, and knowing Him.
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6."Meanwhile, a kindly old woman who has done nothing but good deeds all her life, but just so happens to be Hindu rather than Christian.. she goes to Hell simply because she was brought up by her parents to be Hindu and she made the choice of religion in her adult life?"

Again, Jesus is the only way. She may have been a "good person", but she was good by man's standards, not God's. The Bible says that "our righteousness is as filthy rags". So yes, without Jesus, hell is her destination. Doesn't this you show you A. how important Jesus and what He did is, and B. that we Christians MUST spread the Gospel?
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7."Or what about sometime after Jesus was born and died, some person in a third world country that never heard of Jesus in his entire life dies, he goes to Hell because a missionary never made it that far into the jungle?"

Again, we have to spread the Gospel so that this doesn't happen. That is why we have missionaries. But, to answer your question, the Bible says that "the heavens and earth proclaim his name, and bear witness to His glory". Looking at creation should tell you that there is a God, this couldn't be a coincidence. As far as specifics, I can't speak for God on this. Why don't you ask Him? He always answers me.
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8."Now, this is my opinion, but I think not. I am Christian, and my God doesn't do that."

I truly hope that you really are a Christian. But it sounds like you don't study the Word much. I encourage you to do so, for the Word is God's will, it's how you can get to know Him.


#72 May 14 2004 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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"I'm far too indifferent to your nonsensical babbling." Really? Why did you post that then? If you are indifferent, then stop reading now.

The fact is that you will read my entire post because I am on God's side and your spirit wants to hear about Him.

As far as your claim that God, the devil, and all that stuff is fictional - another lie. Not that you're lying, you're believing a lie. People say that we make up all that stuff to comfort us; it seems to me that unbelievers act as if it all doesnt exist to comfort themselves. It would all be easier if there was no God, no devil, no heaven or hell, or right and wrong. But these things exist. God said "Choose you this day whom you will serve". The choice to serve yourself is a choice for the devil. I know you hate to hear that, but the truth hurts.

To the hypocrite remark, a husband and wife situation is not the same as a stranger to stranger. Even if it was the same, sharing what you believe and "forcing" are totally different.

"You're delusional and attempting to project your delusions on others."

Name-calling, and bashing. Why?

"I call UBS on your claim that you care about the souls of the athiests on these boards. You may care about winning an argument, thus, scoring one for your team. You may care about recruiting another sucker. But more than that, no, I'm not buying it. Why would I doubt your sincerity? Because "believers" on this board eventually lose their composure and end up gloating "ha ha, when I die I'll go to heaven and you'll be burning in hell." "

You don't know me at all, and you don't know my intentions. I do care about your soul, and I don't care whether or not you believe that. There are no brownie points in heaven for how many people you got saved, so what would be my motivation for scoring one for the team? My only motivation is God's love.
#73 May 14 2004 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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2."Actually, no one gets into Heaven right away, according to the Catholics anyway. You go to Purgatory. You have to wait for the second coming of Christ to open the gates to Heaven for you. ^^".

Not Biblical. Show me purgatory in the Bible.
While the Catholic conception of Purgatory isn't Biblical, the Book of Revelation says that the dead will be awakened at the Second Coming, then judged and then brought into Heaven (or cast into Hell). Since the soul is undying, one would assume that post-mortal death and pre-2nd Coming, your soul is in some sort of stasis, be it Purgatory, Sheol or whatever.

Edited, Fri May 14 14:41:06 2004 by Jophiel
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#74 May 14 2004 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Joph, can you give me that scripture, chapter and verse please?
#75 May 14 2004 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Did you know that if you put migrating birds in a planetarium and rotate the image of the night sky by 90 degrees, the birds attempt to migrate east instead of north?


Did you every hear of Quantum Philosophy?.. which says that experiments are usally Flawed because of the fact that WE are interfereing with the results with our mere presence?

http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/qphil.html



ANYWAY.. I don't have time..
http://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/WhatisEMF/en/

http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/~ritz/RESEARCH/MS/ms.html

http://www.item-bioenergy.com/rfi/intro.html

http://beatsworking.2itb.com/contact.html
http://www.pracsmart.com/eyes-to-soul6.html

(check out the Pineal Gland also.. which is waht I was thinking of during my post.

http://wwwedu.oulu.fi/homepage/tjarvile/nerve.htm



http://www.nature.com/nsu/021216/021216-4.html

http://www.grantchronicles.com/paralleluniversemk.htm


DAMMIT.. i could find others... but the Firewall is a *****.. and I'm too lazy to **** with it right now..


Look at some of these.. and I expect good arguments later ^^

Edited, Fri May 14 14:57:19 2004 by Kelvyquayo
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#76 May 14 2004 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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hey, guess poor people can't afford any gods..
My point was MOST of the philosphers and religious clergy who struggled with the Original Poster's question:
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Im not sure what to belive...
had the time and money to do so. MOST of the poor unwashed masses believe what they were brought up to believe. It is no wonder they have the greatest faith since they are the ones consumed in the day-to-day struggle to survive.
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