The doom of Ninja tank and Ranger's career is near . . .Follow

So lets think about what type a job a Nin is now after the update. We wont be able to hold hate(unless we have a thf) and tank. Our attack is no where near being a DD. I dont know about anyone else, but ive only used the Hojo, Jubaku and Kurayami Debuffs(slow paralyze and blind for those who dont know the spells)and cant really depend on Elemental debuffs to do much damage. Now what i dont get is SE says were not Tanks, yet the new Yasha JSE gives us Enmity to tank better. So anyways, after the next update we nins dont have much going for us except shadows and some debuffs. They could at least give nins a new Job ability, like a attack booster, or maybe a shadow that fights for a short period of time next to the nin.

IF the update does severly affect Nin's ability to tank, I am interested in seeing how the Nin's of the world adapt. I cannot imagine quitting a say 50 nin job just cause you cant tank with it anymore.

I think everyone is jumping the gun a bit on the nerf, we have to wait and see just how much hate is lost. I really doubt the hate is set to 0 after a shadow dies, so what if you lose a small amount? There's a job ability, you get it at lvl 5 on warrior, its called provoke, use your /equip macros, sub in your enmity, and thats one nice provoke. I dont particularly think thf will become the new hot job thanks to this, parties will just have to consider hate management when forming, we all know its easier to tank with 2 rangers instead of 1. This also would greatly benefit your war/drk skillchains on nin tank, making it even easier to turn the mob for sata spinning slash.
As far as ninja never meant to be a tank, thats crap, someone in the original testing must have tried it, so I'm sure they were well aware of it. It's probably also why they gave some mobs a nasty double attack rate.

I think someone (maybe Chops) posted a parser where JWB the ninja tank out-damage everyone.

check these items and you tell me ninja will not be able to keep hate.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=4193 two of these.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=4246

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=8771

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=41053

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=3109

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=9044

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=2803

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=9093

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=3896


the list goes on but im to lazy to finish it, but tell me how ninjas wont be able to keep hate please.

post 60 is when the ninjitsu elemental wheel goes to **** and is no longer useful. pre 60 it does enough dmg to be a vialbe way to keep hate, you lose a little enmity every time a shadow is taken but at the same time you get it right back with ni elemental spells.

post 60 ni spells do too weak damage and no longer a vialbe source of hate gaining. that is where this gear + attack equipment comes in handy.

i already mentioned that.

I've only played NIN to 30, but I've made heavy use of shuriken during that time as a way to do more damage, and the reason you don't see more people using shuriken is that it makes NIN an absolutely ridiculous gil sink.

At level 30, I pay 30k for a stack of shuriken -- about twice what a RNG would pay for a stack of silver bullets, if I'm not mistaken. Also, because of the lower delay time, I'll throw two or three shuriken for every time a RNG fires if I spam them. At current prices, it's just not feasible to do this for a main job, and that's not even considering the space issues since shurikens can't be quivered (though I suppose they could be considered ninja tools in the update).

As far as using a NIN for enfeebling vs. a RDM, I think you're absolutely right in a job to job comparison. But if you take a NIN and a BRD in a PT, you'll have a DD/enfeebler and a refresher/dispeller, and that seems to me it would be viable in parties.

I always thought NIN and RNG deserve better damage/tanking ability I mean how much do you use to cast spell/attack

nothing?

then why should you be equal to a person spending crazy amounts to party when you get it free : just my thoughts RNG was a lil TOO powerful though maybe we see more MNKs now lol^^

Ive spent some time thinking about this now. And ive discussed it with some of my LS members and thought that I would share my thoughts here.

As far as class preference. My set (three of us) fill the party with pickups almost everytime we EXP so ive gotten a wide vareity of job combinations in my group before, and I can honestly say I dont particularly care what class they are as long as they can play well. I mean there are certain neccessities (a tank for example). And the tank needs to be able to keep hate and that is all. If i cant cast then im useless.

The first change ill talk about is NINs. I dont think this is gonna hurt em too bad at all. PLD and WAR and every other melee class lose hate when they get hit. More likeley than not it will benefit them. Allowing them to aquire hate and slowly lose some of it, so that they may cat Utsemi again unhindered. As it is right now the WHM in my set knows that Utsemi is up when the NIN goes yellow and starts screaming VOKE! to the other DD. With proper hate management this isnt an issue but more often than not it is. I think this update will actually make playing a NIN easier. They will lose some hate keeping ability,(we will just have to wait for the update to see how much)but any skilled player should be able to still manage.

Now the RNG update is the one that concerns me. The aspect of RNG has never been implemented and it stands a high chance of being done incorrectly. It is my hope that they offer different range catagories for certain weapons so that a close range RNG (as in standing within melee distance) is still a viable option. Because the RNG's main pt aspect is raw damage dealing, which they do very well, I might add. They have some great supplementary skills such as being able to see the mobs on the map and dig for stuff as well, therfore they are also choice for pulling the mobs. However anyone can pull if theyare skilled and it is this raw damage dealing that usually gets them the invites. Why do you seek RNG? (DD capability right?)

That being said I dont think they are gonna cut down on the DD too much. I think that there may be a slight decrease in damage output, but I dont think it will be anything to get your panties in a wad about (I could be wrong SE has done some incredibly unintelligent things to try and crash players before...set tokens and no support for +1 versions comes immediately to mind as a big **** you to everyone who took the time to buy high end equipment for capped 30-60 lvl events). What does concerne me is the actual range that the ranger must be at to perform their ranger like damage. IF they make the RNG stand back and he still deals then the mob is gonna move a lot. this will mean that the RNG tactic will be played differently. I play a BLM and am familiar with the mobs getting pissed and chasing me down every so often (and so is any other mage class). I also know that in PT set up you will see the PT ******** at mages who pull too much hate (ID o it sometimes if the weapon oriented members of the PT cant deal out enough damage for me to cast a single spell ;;, but I have seen a great deal of unskilled BLM while leveling other classes). However if they put the RNG in the back ranks as well the mob will chase them as well. Will the RNG have to hold back like mage classes? (and I currently dont have a high lvl RNG so if anyone plays a HIGH lvl RNG and finds that this next staement is incorrect please interject..im just speaking from what ive seen). I think that a RNG ultimately draws more hate than a BLM hence the slight tendency towards the /nin sub in RNG (aside form the fact of dual weilding +ACC weapons which someone in my LS pointed out to me). IF the mob moves a lot then the RNGs role wil be fundementally changed. A large part of scoring non mage induced EXP chains is dependant on keeping the monster in place managing hate and dispatching it quickly.

If the mob is constantly being kited between the two RNG in the PT (I mention dual RNG because it is a popular EXP set up) then the other melee chars lose even more efficiency and the two RNG suffer as well as they care constantly moving and countermining each other movements as they strive for "optimum" missle damage. The other posibility is that distance isnt going to be alrage factor and RNG will stay in melee and lose even a little bit more DD capability. Or perhaps we will see new PT tendencies.

My favorite thing about FFXI and its community is the ability of players to find creative and effective ways to do things. If this update allows for the creation of new PT templates by the force of need (as in current standards are no longer as effective) then it could be a positive thing. But I have a foreboding feeling that the RNG will be played more like a mage after the update. Popping every so often for the big damage and not gaining TP as quickly if they arent allowed into melee.

Ill say a second time that SE needs to make a melee ranged RNG a viable option or I feel that the range restriction will definately hurt the class (how much it will hurt is yet to be seen as SE hasnt revealed what percentage of the RNG damage output will be reliant on the range factor).

@Kelton: the reason while I referred to them as nerfs is the fact that RNG and NIN are very sought after on every server. They are veiwed as some of the best (if not the best) DD and tanks available. They are already VERY effective and I dont think these changes are made to step them even further out in front. (but then again we are talking about SE..so anything may be possible here) SO my stance (based on the implied logic that these two classes are already great) is that the changes are made to add more balance to them in proportion to the other similarly roled classes (Read: nerf).

Thanks,

Gob

(sorry for any grammar errors..i did read over it once, butim certain there are still a few mistakes)

I don't see why this would be the death of rangers. Is a BLM useless when he stays at range? No. so... whatever.

As for the NIN move though, well.. yuck. I can't wait to see how it turns out. I hope it doesn't make NIN useless as tank; it's already ridiculous enough to only have 2 tank classes (between 35 and 73, that is =P ) ...


Edited, Tue Jul 5 18:58:17 2005 by Niji

/pumps his palms in the air...
woot! might actually get some invites now!
62thf/nin :D