Is it wrong to expect a RDM or BRD in party post 55?Follow

To be fair, RDM do not use the least MP in any given party. We use quite a lot of MP, if we do our jobs correctly. We just have better ways of getting it back (ie convert, medding after our assigned tasks are done until a debuff wears).


Onto the RDM/BRD question:


No, I don't think it's unfair at all. Some people might, yes. Those some people also probably get roughly three invites a week, so I think they're a bit jaded when it comes to exp. Not that that's a bad thing. Whatever makes 'em happy.

Just remember, you party because you want to. Shouldn't it be on your own terms?

Edited, Tue Jul 12 17:56:59 2005 by Alauce

I am a ranger as well and I think Dispel and Convert can be more important than Refresh, it all depends on your party setup. Last night, I was in a party of a Nin, Rng x4, and a busy RDM. With that much blink goin, all he did was heal and dispel and heal and then convert. Refresh was handy but that Convert made for non stop pulling.

HD

That party was so fun. We need to party some more =)

Haste? = WHM part of my buffing cycle should be same for most whm.

backup healing? = again so far in 90% of all pts i'm in i don't need a back up healer outside of a nin since they tend to get eaten pretty quick if shadows drop for too quick, with a PLD i don't need a back up even on chain 5s. If your enfeebs aren't sticking long enough to last 80% of the fight then there's something wrong there(be it the xp mob choice or a sub par skill). You may toss out an extra cure III on a

MBing? = So you spend MP on a Nuke 1-2 times per fight again shouldn't be an issue.

So now you're saying that a RDM that does all this should be blowing so much MP that they need to convert every 10min to do their job properly? At 55 if i remember right most RDMs i pted with had around 600-900mp depending on race and equip and without food. So lets have some fun with numbers:
Paralyze - 6mp (we'll say you do this 2x for whatever reason) 12mp
Slow - 15mp (we'll say you do this 2x for whatever reason) 30mp
Blind - 5mp (we'll say you do this 2x for whatever reason) 10mp
Dia II - 59mp (should last the fight normally since not many fight light mobs for xp)
Dispel - 25mp (lets say 5 times even though that seems a bit high for most xp mobs) 125mp
Refresh - 40mp (lets say RDM, WHM, BLM, PLD, and DRK just for a full load) 200mp
Blizzard II - 77mp (for those MBs so 2x) 154mp
Cure III - 46mp (i did say you may need a few so I'll say 3 per fight) 138mp

Ok so for 1 fight you are spending:
866mp - for all there extras and whatever else you may want to atribute this to. Seems insanely high but when you have to do your spells over and over it gets MP costly, note a good rdm usually doesn't get resists unless people are fighting a IT++ and up mobs which then you want a BRD since they will help the party more than a RDM would with spells that get resisted.
576mp - on most chain mobs that aren't IT++ and up. This is the number i'm used to seeing from most rdm who do a good/great job.
Now this doesn't include for when the WHM wants to help out on spell cuz they wanna keep their skill capped too.
Oops i forgot to take away your Refresh you'd have on ok so we'll say an average fight of 90sec so that's -30mp

New totals:
836mp
546mp

These numbers are on a given pt set up as well as a mob type(buffer trough abilities/TP moves). This is about the most MP heavy set up i could think of for a RDM to have to deal with during a XP session.
Toss in a NIN and say 2 RNG over the BLM and DRK for the damage and the RDM would save up about 156-200+ mp depending on how well set up the RNGs were(i.e. Status bolts to minimize buff ability). Oh and then toss in a SMN with the puppy, oh look now aside from stoneskin effect on crabs you don't have to dispel oh wait the RNG will rip trough that in 3-4hits ok so we don't really need that dispeled, so now i've just essentially turned a RDM into a Refresh ***** at which point i'd be looking for a BRD since they could do a lot more for the new set up of SMN, NIN, BLM, RNG, RNG, RDM/BRD. So ya as you can see i've taken a great RDM who would be doing a lot and helping the PT quite a bit into a pretty worthless PT member being that an item could replace you 90% of the way. You could agrgue that you can Haste but hey as a SMN i've been able to cycle Haste properly with another Pact per fight, now if only i had the puppy i could use me as an example lol.

Now in those first 20sec you probably are blowing the 250~ of that total, but you still have time to med up MP before blowing some more of that mp. I don't know many RDM's be it in xp or in events where they blow 836mp through a whole fight. I do however know RDMs who can do 80-90% of that list without Convert every 10 min so if you think they are bad then I'll just keep em for my pts and events i mean they only help contribute to the 5-9k xp pts that everyone wants.
Notice i didn't include /blm which 90% of the RDM's are at least the ones I've pted with since its impossible to accurately calculate Conserve MP. Also the other reason i didn't include /blm is because i've seen a hard core RDM/DRK who will never sub BLM for XP go numerous chains without needing to convert and still do her job.

Don't get me wrong I do love RDMs as they do enhance a pt to get that higher number of xp however there are set ups where a RDM would be a waste of a PT slot. A RDM serves a simple purpose they are there to make a PT function better. They will never make a PT uber at least not one who isn't scared of shelling out more than 5k gil per xp session.

As to BRDs since the OP included them they are the same they don't need to be in the PT if you have smart people willing to adapt and look up some alternative XP places. They are there to enhance a PT be it through Ballads, Buff songs, and/or Debuff songs.

Edit: some numbers where off. and somemore input

Edited, Thu Jul 14 11:10:48 2005 by shadowbuni

Lol Sioux You have some good points but the idea of a rdm who doesn't have to convert every 10min is what was brought up as what is a good rdm not one who can say conserve there mp to go say 20-30min in between converts or however as needed.


I agree on the part of say trying to land Slow on a Crawler or any other earth mob or say a Torama with Paralyze but if you aren't trying to fight say toramas at 58 like one pt i had where no one in the pt could land anything for long then there's an issue there that has nothing to do with a RDM. I have yet to see a high resist rate let alone anything about 30%~ on spells that aren't the mobs type when they aren't IT++ Also depends on the race of the RDM i have seen Evlaan RDMs who land a 80%+ Slow on Crawlers from xp sessions and i've also seen the opposite of like 10% o.o from another RDM

As to the Fenrir thing its actually a comment about my previous post where i mentioned Fenrir's ACC/EVA Down BP will cancel Evasion and even Accuracy buffs from giving any effect.



Ok on the AoE thing I'll have to give that too ya cuz i tend to forget i'm a galka who whips out Earth Staff after Curagas to watch aggro litely dent me before the tank gets hate back^^. But i have seen other WHMs able to throw Curagas on Gobbies in Bibiki without hate stealing so that would more depend on the WHM than the RDM.



I never said a RDM = sub standard XP however you'd have to admit there are set ups where you are a waste of a slot being that in some pts you won't do anything but Refresh to help that pt out.

As to the BRD's Debuffs you are right they do get resisted but i've never gotten a BRD to be the Debuffer they are there to Buff, aside from Magic Finale I don't care about the BRD debuffing a mob. Also a BRD gets something a RDM doesn't they can lower resistance to a given element. I want Debuffs and the PT support that is RDM, i get a RDM however if there is a pt set up where all the RDM is doing that supports the PT heavily is Refresh and just that, then i'll take anything else and bring juice supplies.

Out of time....damn work sucks sometimes lol

That's the thing Shadow; we don't have the option of conserving MP, not where it really counts, not when the party is pulling nonstop. I can't just drop a couple people from the Refresh cycle in a hectic party, or just skip debuffs, or let a mob buff slide; I don't have the option. And I shouldn't have to, since I have the handy job ability of Convert; I'm not going to play the job as if I didn't have that ability, when I need it. ;)
Conserving MP is part of being a RDM; you don't go in and free nuke, or Cure III every time a party member gets hit, or otherwise act like an *** with bottomless MP. Our MP is the MP of the party; it's our job to keep it going, and if you blow your MP before Vert is up you're looking at a bad scene. Granted, there are parties where I *can* let Convert wait, but these are always exceptional parties, where the mobs are dying fast and easy and I can get a tick of MP. The parties where I'm Verting every ten minutes are usually the ones where I'm really needed. :x

Using Convert or not using it is not where you look to see if your RDM sucks. You look at your chain, at your mob, at your party's MP use. You look at how often the debuffs proc, at whether or not they're up and staying up; none of that comes free, all of it runs on MP (and gil -_-).



There will always be a party situation in which one job is a 'waste of a slot', I agree. If you DO have a RDM and he seems pointless, the problem is probably the RDM, and not the job class as a whole, though; even in a manaburn pt, that RDM should be doing more than casting Refresh.

RDM and BRD, unfortunately, are the only classes that have the ability to level the playing field and extend the MP potential of the party. For RDM this comes at a cost, but the purpose of Convert is to remedy that...all I'm really saying is that using it isn't a stigma thing, or a sign that your RDM blows.

Have you ever seen Elegy and how useful it is? Elegy is extremely useful.

1 Spell does not make you a debuffer. Yes i have seen how useful it is, have you seen how useful Blind and Paralyze are? or any other Debuff a RDM can give the mob?

Not sure if anything AlphaJew is saying is targeted towards me but it sounds like some of it is.
So 2 things about your comment read all my posts I have never said "using Convert" = bad RDM i have and still say HAVING to use it makes a bad RDM, barring outside situations i.e. links. And I did give situations where all of the RDM debuffs needed on an xp mob would be covered even how to lose the need of Dispel on most buffing mobs, which would turn you into a Refresher and nuker. So why am I who can and have used Melon Juices as a PLD, WHM, SMN, BLM, and even my RDM and DRK that i played with, going to want a RDM who is Refreshing and nuking because for whatever reason everyone in the pt has the rest covered instead of another BLM who will have roughly double the damage on nukes.
And about judging people? I'm me, who are you to judge me or my opinions? oh ya, you.(yes i'm being a smartass concidering this is a public forum where opinions are expressed)

And about:

This wasn't towards me but its also pretty pointless unless you actually XP on Kirin. The reason Gods or Events aren't actually mentioned in specifics is because this whole argument has been about in XP situations. I mean you could argue that you need 6-8 RDM/DRK so you can Chainspell Stun Shadowlord or any other mob that's annoying but quick to die just so its an easy fight.


Edited, Fri Jul 15 10:50:31 2005 by shadowbuni

Sorry to butt in from another Server but I saw this topic and had to reply.

I am a BRD on Alexander and even though this may be a insult to my class....I feel that BRD is one of the few jobs that every party could do WITHOUT. A party can not in all reality survive without a healer and a BRD simply does not have the MP to be a healer. They can not survive without a tank....I could just imagine myself tanking with my HUGE defense. (*can you hear the sarcasm?) They also need straight up DD.....DEFINITELY not a BRD strong point. What are we going to do? Requiem an IT mob to death? However, a party can easily survive without Requiem. (there are a half-dozen other ways to Poison a mob) They will still hit the mob without Madrigal, they just may have to swing a few extra times to get past the misses(or actually use an ACC food) They can (as has been pointed out many times on this thread) easily survive without Ballad...it just means they have to pop juices (or even Ginger Cookies) and they have to manage thier time wisely.

To me (and remember I am a BRD saying this) a sign of a great player is one that can compensate for not having the "luxury" jobs in the party. There is pretty much a "physical" way to accomplish everything that a BRD and RDM is supposedly "required" to do.

/end soapbox

And what i was saying is that if i want a debuffer i get a RDM. If i want a mob to get debuffed i get a RDM not a BRD yes Elegy is nice but why take a BRD to debuff when a RDM does way way way more than an uber slow? BRDs aren't picked up for there debuffs at least i've never looked at a BRD and said "oooo lets get him they have Elegy" I get them cuz then can remove a given effect as needed and mainly enhance a pt almost a full 50% better depending on the mob and pt lvl. Yes I do like seeing Elegy land but its not my top priority with a BRD its having the melee and mages buffed up.

You realize by trying to be a smartass and not remembering or rereading my other posts on this very topic you are sorta killing you argument. Also if you were to actually think Elegy was a BRD's best song then there would be something wrong there, then again i never assumed that, you assumed that i did.
And since its not really noticeable i'll try and say it again in a different way; Elegy can't compare to Slow it is just that much better especially once a BRD gets Carnal Elegy but that isn't as important as having say a Crab's Shell effect removed in most PTs.

And since this is turning into the same argument over and over this will be my last post. Feel free to have the last word, i'm growing tired of this since i'm no longer getting any decent rebuttals that are really thought provoking.

Edit: hahah I meant Carnage Elegy lol but i'll leave my error in since Sioux's comment wouldn't make much sense.



Edited, Sat Jul 16 01:33:28 2005 by shadowbuni

To expect one in a party? Isn't wrong. To disband a party becuase you can't find one? Is wrong.

Mainly that refresh can be subsituted with people who actually put effort and synth up juices for themselves.

If a party doesn't know how to live without Refresh..disband they don't know what they're doing. if they're going to play a job that requires MP..they should either sub in SMN / grab a vermy for when healing and be able to synth up some juices.

If they can't? that's their fault for not being prepared.

I personally hate seeing a RDM's talents go to waste just becuase they're refreshing 4 other people. they're worth a lot more than that

/sigh then agian smn's can do more than just heal BUT that's just the way of the game i suppose.