No offence to anyone but... post 50 it'd be 'not the best choice' if you don't have a Bard or Red Mage in a party.
Dispell and Finale is a reason enough to put them into your parties for the simple fact that most parties fight crab, beetle and crawlers which have evasion and defence up moves which could drain a paries mp pool very quick.
Refresh and Ballad is important as well to the other Magic casters in your party. Simply said as long as the Mages have MP the fights continue.
Sure you can exp without a Bard or Red Mage but whomever decides to form this type of party is rushing a possible good pt. setup without those two jobs.
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Is it wrong to expect a RDM or BRD in party post 55?Follow
Quote:
You realize by trying to be a smartass and not remembering or rereading my other posts on this very topic you are sorta killing you argument. Also if you were to actually think Elegy was a BRD's best song then there would be something wrong there, then again i never assumed that, you assumed that i did.
And since its not really noticeable i'll try and say it again in a different way; Elegy can't compare to Slow it is just that much better especially once a BRD gets Carnal Elegy but that isn't as important as having say a Crab's Shell effect removed in most PTs.
And since this is turning into the same argument over and over this will be my last post. Feel free to have the last word, i'm growing tired of this since i'm no longer getting any decent rebuttals that are really thought provoking.
Edit: hahah I meant Carnage Elegy lol but i'll leave my error in since Sioux's comment wouldn't make much sense.
And since its not really noticeable i'll try and say it again in a different way; Elegy can't compare to Slow it is just that much better especially once a BRD gets Carnal Elegy but that isn't as important as having say a Crab's Shell effect removed in most PTs.
And since this is turning into the same argument over and over this will be my last post. Feel free to have the last word, i'm growing tired of this since i'm no longer getting any decent rebuttals that are really thought provoking.
Edit: hahah I meant Carnage Elegy lol but i'll leave my error in since Sioux's comment wouldn't make much sense.
Yeah, I agree this dragged on a lot and for all the people who read that, I'm sorry. The only reason I argued was because I felt that Elegy wasn't being considered important, and I think it is (though like you said, not important as in "Oh a Bard they have Elegy!") And I do agree finale is more important, but the time it takes to cast both is like 5 seconds so that's why as a 63 Bard I think Bards should always use Elegy, every bit helps.
All in all you have very good arguments, I'm sorry for being a smartass, and I'm sorry we misunderstood each other.
Edit: The errors that my touch pad caused with the random letters and such being placed when I accidently touched it when typing...
Edited, Sat Jul 16 22:50:12 2005 by Annalise
I was going to try and add something to this topic that was both insightful and perhaps even witty, but I've decided to just shut my mouth about being a RDM because I now notice the only opinion on how a rdm should do his job that matters is the opinion of people who do not play rdm. So I am just gonna rant like almost everyone else on these forums.
I'll tell you this, I am a lvl 60 rdm. I at lvl 60 have 545 mp, (check the character profile) I am able to manage this MP trough enfeebles/refreshing/dispeling/healing and buffing (Yes I said buffing because sometimes whm's hate to do something as simple as haste the DD's)for around 15 minutes (without medding and using Sweet Rice Cakes).
If using a job ability every ten minutes, that gives me all my mp back in one shot, allows me to stay ever vigilante in case of random pops, asshats pulling trains or any other random crap that can happen that may cause me to have to heal, escape, or sleep. Makes me a "Bad" rdm well I guess I am a bad rdm. But when I convert in mid battle and cure four your *** or sleep that add that just popped on our ***, thus saving your wondeful xp from going to the void, my guess is the story will change to "Damn man WHM you rock thanks for saving us.. Pffft stupid rdm using your job abilities what're you thinking?"
Am I sorry for this rant? Nope. Do i care if you rate me down for my opinion? Nope. Do I cry when I lose xp or die in a Video game? Nope. Do I get pissed when people who have never done my job try to tell me the proper way to do my job? Yer damn Skippy I do.
I'll tell you this, I am a lvl 60 rdm. I at lvl 60 have 545 mp, (check the character profile) I am able to manage this MP trough enfeebles/refreshing/dispeling/healing and buffing (Yes I said buffing because sometimes whm's hate to do something as simple as haste the DD's)for around 15 minutes (without medding and using Sweet Rice Cakes).
If using a job ability every ten minutes, that gives me all my mp back in one shot, allows me to stay ever vigilante in case of random pops, asshats pulling trains or any other random crap that can happen that may cause me to have to heal, escape, or sleep. Makes me a "Bad" rdm well I guess I am a bad rdm. But when I convert in mid battle and cure four your *** or sleep that add that just popped on our ***, thus saving your wondeful xp from going to the void, my guess is the story will change to "Damn man WHM you rock thanks for saving us.. Pffft stupid rdm using your job abilities what're you thinking?"
Am I sorry for this rant? Nope. Do i care if you rate me down for my opinion? Nope. Do I cry when I lose xp or die in a Video game? Nope. Do I get pissed when people who have never done my job try to tell me the proper way to do my job? Yer damn Skippy I do.
Annalise as well as some of the RDM's on here had some good discussions/arguments w/e.
XxMortimerxX as to your rant i have simply this to reply since it is about something i said that not many seem to know how to read, be prepared this won't be nice.
/equip Asshat+1
Read this since you didn't bother reading or at least comprehending it:
A RDM who needs to use Convert every 10min to do their job is a bad RDM, however a RDM that uses it at their own desegregation(in other words isn't sitting there waiting for the timer to cool, praying it would be done faster) is not a bad RDM nor have i ever said that.
Summary:
RDM that HAVE to Convert Every 10min = BAD RDM.
/unequip Asshat+1
On another note, Annalise what are your thoughts about Threnodys when all they really do is make a spell more accurate but don't hinder the mobs performance, sorta how melee with Snipers don't suffer anything from the -20 vs. Dark. If you wish to essentially kill this horribly hijacked post send me a message, i'm curious about your thoughts on this.
Edit: As to the rating crap i don't care its pointless concidering trolls can play with it as they wish.
Edited, Sun Jul 17 00:41:22 2005 by shadowbuni
XxMortimerxX as to your rant i have simply this to reply since it is about something i said that not many seem to know how to read, be prepared this won't be nice.
/equip Asshat+1
Read this since you didn't bother reading or at least comprehending it:
A RDM who needs to use Convert every 10min to do their job is a bad RDM, however a RDM that uses it at their own desegregation(in other words isn't sitting there waiting for the timer to cool, praying it would be done faster) is not a bad RDM nor have i ever said that.
Summary:
RDM that HAVE to Convert Every 10min = BAD RDM.
/unequip Asshat+1
On another note, Annalise what are your thoughts about Threnodys when all they really do is make a spell more accurate but don't hinder the mobs performance, sorta how melee with Snipers don't suffer anything from the -20 vs. Dark. If you wish to essentially kill this horribly hijacked post send me a message, i'm curious about your thoughts on this.
Edit: As to the rating crap i don't care its pointless concidering trolls can play with it as they wish.
Edited, Sun Jul 17 00:41:22 2005 by shadowbuni
Just so you know Mr.bunnie that post was a post about being a rdm in general and not really directed towards you as I said in the begining of that I was gonna try to add something insightfull to this point but I get so sick of whm, blm, smn, pld, nin, war, brd, rng, and drks telling me how to do my job it is literally driving me insane. So I just decided to rant like everyone else.
You are correct I probably did not read your post as well as I should have before comenting in this thread but then again there was so much bs before and after your post it all kinda bled together so please forgive this humble rdm. Oh and might I add..
IF you have NEVER played a Red Mage, NEVER used the spell REFRESH or NEVER used the ability CONVERT. Please keep you opinions on how I or ANY other Red Mage does thier job to your self, you opinions and statements are not valid if you've never had to deal with the job of being a red mage and quite frankly none of us need the distraction because unlike you (those of you spamming {Refresh} {Please}) our job takes lots of practice and lots of dedication and a whole lot of patience not to just warp out of there on you asshats.
Of course the opinion of any rdm +41 or anyone who has had more than one pt at that lvl as a rdm is allways welcome and appreciated. Now am I saying that everyone who says refresh please in a pt is an asshat? no as a matter of fact I hope the drk in the pt is asking me because drks are never part of my refresh chain (mind you I have not pt'd with many) so when the dark says refresh please I happily imediatly refresh him since he is not a part of my refresh chain.
As to the people wondering why it's so damn hard to find a good rdm or any rdm for that matter for pick up parties post 50. It's because the majority of us all have decided to be in statics with people we trust rather than get random people who like to give you sh*t if you miss one freaking refresh.
You are correct I probably did not read your post as well as I should have before comenting in this thread but then again there was so much bs before and after your post it all kinda bled together so please forgive this humble rdm. Oh and might I add..
IF you have NEVER played a Red Mage, NEVER used the spell REFRESH or NEVER used the ability CONVERT. Please keep you opinions on how I or ANY other Red Mage does thier job to your self, you opinions and statements are not valid if you've never had to deal with the job of being a red mage and quite frankly none of us need the distraction because unlike you (those of you spamming {Refresh} {Please}) our job takes lots of practice and lots of dedication and a whole lot of patience not to just warp out of there on you asshats.
Of course the opinion of any rdm +41 or anyone who has had more than one pt at that lvl as a rdm is allways welcome and appreciated. Now am I saying that everyone who says refresh please in a pt is an asshat? no as a matter of fact I hope the drk in the pt is asking me because drks are never part of my refresh chain (mind you I have not pt'd with many) so when the dark says refresh please I happily imediatly refresh him since he is not a part of my refresh chain.
As to the people wondering why it's so damn hard to find a good rdm or any rdm for that matter for pick up parties post 50. It's because the majority of us all have decided to be in statics with people we trust rather than get random people who like to give you sh*t if you miss one freaking refresh.
So the fact i've taken over my GF's character on a few occasions because a short emergency came up would mean nothing to you? But then again you couldn't find that out by just clinking on a link. Just because i don't have the job personally lvled doesn't mean i have never seen how it should be done, or at least attempted to do it. There is a reason my RDM isn't lvled I had at the times i did play on my GFs RDM a hard time keeping up, which is why a great rdm will always have my respect because they are doing and will still be doing something i think i cannot.
I mean i could ask her to personally post on here since you seem to be a know~it~all RDM(but i'd be assuming so i can't say for certain) and will only listen to a RDM. The fact she agrees on the point that if a RDM has to rely on Convert to do their job then its a problem, but then you could argue what does she know i mean she's only a 75rdm/drk who has put up will all the **** about having to prove her sub choice in almost every xp since she picked it. But what's the point you probably wouldn't listen.
Also you have to admit the shot about Convert was at me being that i'm the only one who has said how a RDM uses it helps me decide whether they are good or bad to me.
Edited, Sun Jul 17 03:27:39 2005 by shadowbuni
Edited, Sun Jul 17 03:38:14 2005 by shadowbuni
I mean i could ask her to personally post on here since you seem to be a know~it~all RDM(but i'd be assuming so i can't say for certain) and will only listen to a RDM. The fact she agrees on the point that if a RDM has to rely on Convert to do their job then its a problem, but then you could argue what does she know i mean she's only a 75rdm/drk who has put up will all the **** about having to prove her sub choice in almost every xp since she picked it. But what's the point you probably wouldn't listen.
Also you have to admit the shot about Convert was at me being that i'm the only one who has said how a RDM uses it helps me decide whether they are good or bad to me.
Edited, Sun Jul 17 03:27:39 2005 by shadowbuni
Edited, Sun Jul 17 03:38:14 2005 by shadowbuni
I Could bother to continue this point to counter point discussion with you for the rest of my life Mr.Buni but I'm not going to. How about this since it is clear this all you really want to read from this "Know it all RDM" is this you go0t it happy to help.
You sir are corect every single point you made was 100% absolute gospel truth, I apologise for ever thinking that what you said was a bit out of line and let me assure you Mr.Buni I will never make the mistake of questioning your wisdom on any matter in the future. As a matter of fact I am a complete idiot and ******* for not seeing a man of your obvious intelegence and stature in this game was trying to lay down the word of god. Please I beg of you to forgive this humble mortal for my transgressions against you and for having the nerve to disagree with a point you were , in you infinate widome trying to bestow upon us.
Imagine knowing a little something more about a job than someone who has played his GF's rdm a few times when you have only logged in over 110+ days of game play as a rdm. I hope this meets with your approval Mr.Buni. Good Luck and have fun in game.
You sir are corect every single point you made was 100% absolute gospel truth, I apologise for ever thinking that what you said was a bit out of line and let me assure you Mr.Buni I will never make the mistake of questioning your wisdom on any matter in the future. As a matter of fact I am a complete idiot and ******* for not seeing a man of your obvious intelegence and stature in this game was trying to lay down the word of god. Please I beg of you to forgive this humble mortal for my transgressions against you and for having the nerve to disagree with a point you were , in you infinate widome trying to bestow upon us.
Imagine knowing a little something more about a job than someone who has played his GF's rdm a few times when you have only logged in over 110+ days of game play as a rdm. I hope this meets with your approval Mr.Buni. Good Luck and have fun in game.
WOW that's just sad you start an argument on something you miss read, then you tell me i have no right to judge you or any RDM because what would i know i don't lvl the job(forget the fact i'm a mage who actually depends on what a RDM does or doesn't do in certain pts), and you decide to give up? I gave you valid reasons as to why I'd at least know enough about RDM and that Convert shouldn't be a HAVE to use ability. You nor anyone else was able to give me a better reason than you get to go all out and then Convert to keep going, that is wasteful.
You had actual points about using convert to help control a bad situation or keep an iffy one in check which i never disagreed with because i do believe that's what its there for, just like a WHM should use Divine Seal to toss out double the hp to make sure or at least try to make sure a bad situation doesn't get much worse.
Do you really think i wanted to read "yes Shadowbuni you are absolutely right"(ok about the not really reading my post i did)? I mean seriously, I posted my opnions on a public forum becuase I'm waiting for that RDM who could possibly give me at least 1 legitimate reason to have to use Convert every single time its ready to go again, I'd guess a Galka RDM could argue it due to MP issues if they aren't using RSE all the time.
Remember my whole argument was that it is bad for a RDM to have to use it every 10minutes I've had many RDM who say its a must yet all I'm getting is that "i use it every 10minutes because i can go all out just before i use it" or some variation to that. Your reasoning came close but you didn't say you pop it off every 10min to keep going, so again not an argument towards my point about Convert. So a RDM who wants to go all out just because they can replenish about 80% of their MP after curing themselves to get going again is supposed to be a good RDM? What happens after that RDM who just went all out is faced with a Chain 3/4 that has 2 links? Where is the MP then?
I mean that's like my RNG saying WS > Barrage > WS at the start of the fight is uber, even though i know its not and messes up most tanks i still do it sometimes for some reason. Does this make me a bad RNG? Of course I'm usually the first to admit it to the pt I'm not scared of it nor will i argue why its good i just do it for some reason without really thinking about it.
But since you've given up and it seems no RDM has come up with a legitimate reasoning I'll never have my answer...
You had actual points about using convert to help control a bad situation or keep an iffy one in check which i never disagreed with because i do believe that's what its there for, just like a WHM should use Divine Seal to toss out double the hp to make sure or at least try to make sure a bad situation doesn't get much worse.
Do you really think i wanted to read "yes Shadowbuni you are absolutely right"(ok about the not really reading my post i did)? I mean seriously, I posted my opnions on a public forum becuase I'm waiting for that RDM who could possibly give me at least 1 legitimate reason to have to use Convert every single time its ready to go again, I'd guess a Galka RDM could argue it due to MP issues if they aren't using RSE all the time.
Remember my whole argument was that it is bad for a RDM to have to use it every 10minutes I've had many RDM who say its a must yet all I'm getting is that "i use it every 10minutes because i can go all out just before i use it" or some variation to that. Your reasoning came close but you didn't say you pop it off every 10min to keep going, so again not an argument towards my point about Convert. So a RDM who wants to go all out just because they can replenish about 80% of their MP after curing themselves to get going again is supposed to be a good RDM? What happens after that RDM who just went all out is faced with a Chain 3/4 that has 2 links? Where is the MP then?
I mean that's like my RNG saying WS > Barrage > WS at the start of the fight is uber, even though i know its not and messes up most tanks i still do it sometimes for some reason. Does this make me a bad RNG? Of course I'm usually the first to admit it to the pt I'm not scared of it nor will i argue why its good i just do it for some reason without really thinking about it.
But since you've given up and it seems no RDM has come up with a legitimate reasoning I'll never have my answer...
Quote:
I'm waiting for that RDM who could possibly give me at least 1 legitimate reason to have to use Convert every single time its ready to go again, I'd guess a Galka RDM could argue it due to MP issues if they aren't using RSE all the time.
Since you want a reason, here it is:
I do burn parties a lot. Not in the sense of manaburn or arrowburn. They're basically the only parties I do: KRT monk parties and Sky golem parties/roaming weapon camps. Nine times out of ten (well, five times out of ten, heh) I'm the main heal in the parties, (barring KRT, there I share heal duties with a WHM).
I normally always have a bard with me. With refresh and ballads, I get 6 MP back per tick. As an Elvaan RDM using the best MP gear I can afford, I have just shy of 800 MP, using Marron Glace. I have two merits into Convert, putting my Convert timer at a not unkind time of nine minutes and twenty seconds.
But when you're doing chains for twenty, thirty, forty... you really do start hurting for MP, even with strict MP rationing. All the mobs I fight have fierce AoEs (blood drain, black cloud, thunder/ice break, whirl of rage), and a curaga is bound to happen at least once a battle, if not more.
Now, perhaps you're not familiar with roaming camps, but.. roaming camps = no time to rest. Ever. That means my ONLY means of gaining MP back would be the six MP per tick I regain from ballad/refresh. It seems pretty nifty though, doesn't it? Six mp per three seconds. But when it's ALL the mp you get back, sans for the end of the chain, it means slightly less than nothing.
There have been times where I've been grasping at straws for MP, waiting for my convert timer to come back up, simply because the chain could not and would not wait. Does it make me a bad Red Mage, having to convert every nine minutes and twenty seconds so I can continue curing? I don't think it does. I do begrudge my small MP pool at times, but I most certainly don't think it makes me a bad RDM, having to convert in a fast-paced situation such as that.
I don't have any beef with anything said in this thread. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents on some circumstances where converting every ten minutes is a very viable and sometimes necessary route to take.
EDIT: right, bbcode, not html... *doh*
Edited, Sun Jul 17 08:21:20 2005 by Alauce
Im not from this server, but I saw topic off list and it interested me, since Alot of views about RDM and BRD are distorted or biased on at least my server.
There is some instances where some jobs are invaluable, but for about 95% of the game, you can get by without a certain job.
The only time a Rdm can make or break a party, is when you are fighting Caster mobs, Silence really does make or break parties. No job can land This spell like we do, especially later in the game. The only job that can even come close is a Whm with a few merits in Enfeebling, And even 1 resist on a lvl-3 Aga spell can mean disaster.
Undead party, BRD will make or break a party, because Lullaby'ing undead is a necessity when there's a Link.(especially because their aggro Low HP range is so wide.)
Drk or Blm for Stun on Goblins can really make or break parties. 1 suicide bomb can mean 10 mins of downtime to raise, wait for weakness, and heal injured person.
Thats all I can think of, off the top of my head in an EXP party. For the most part, Refresh is a convenience. Its convenient to cast a spell, instead of carrying around ingredients, spending gil, wasting inventory spaces, leveling cooking or alchemy. Its convenient for a NIN tank to not bring Powders for Enfeebles, because it saves time and money. And many more reasons I could list. Its important, but there is ways around it.
So people just go with whatever that they know is quick and works. Its easier to invite a Rank 6 Rng than a Rank 6 Drk, not knowing the gear or anything, just because the Drk has to work harder to equal the work-output of a Rng Blessed with so much Cheap Rng-Acc gear to his disposal, and natural Acc Traits.
To answer the OP question: Is it wrong to expect a RDM OR BRD in party pre-55? No its not. you expect a support job, and almost all parties can really use these 2 jobs. But its not only the spell refresh. There job is to reduce downtime, to either quicken the kill, or cripple the mob reducing its damage dealt, saving the main healer's mp. If the fight drags on, and the mob isnt enfeebled, you ARE gonna burn MP.
Too many people consider me a Refresh ***** due to my job, and its frustrating. Because I take great pride in playing my job to it's fullest and to the best of my capability, to only be needed for 1 spell is stupid. There is much more a RDM does than Refresh, and much more a BRD does than Ballad. Too many stupid, closed-minded people refuse to see this.
There is some instances where some jobs are invaluable, but for about 95% of the game, you can get by without a certain job.
The only time a Rdm can make or break a party, is when you are fighting Caster mobs, Silence really does make or break parties. No job can land This spell like we do, especially later in the game. The only job that can even come close is a Whm with a few merits in Enfeebling, And even 1 resist on a lvl-3 Aga spell can mean disaster.
Undead party, BRD will make or break a party, because Lullaby'ing undead is a necessity when there's a Link.(especially because their aggro Low HP range is so wide.)
Drk or Blm for Stun on Goblins can really make or break parties. 1 suicide bomb can mean 10 mins of downtime to raise, wait for weakness, and heal injured person.
Thats all I can think of, off the top of my head in an EXP party. For the most part, Refresh is a convenience. Its convenient to cast a spell, instead of carrying around ingredients, spending gil, wasting inventory spaces, leveling cooking or alchemy. Its convenient for a NIN tank to not bring Powders for Enfeebles, because it saves time and money. And many more reasons I could list. Its important, but there is ways around it.
So people just go with whatever that they know is quick and works. Its easier to invite a Rank 6 Rng than a Rank 6 Drk, not knowing the gear or anything, just because the Drk has to work harder to equal the work-output of a Rng Blessed with so much Cheap Rng-Acc gear to his disposal, and natural Acc Traits.
To answer the OP question: Is it wrong to expect a RDM OR BRD in party pre-55? No its not. you expect a support job, and almost all parties can really use these 2 jobs. But its not only the spell refresh. There job is to reduce downtime, to either quicken the kill, or cripple the mob reducing its damage dealt, saving the main healer's mp. If the fight drags on, and the mob isnt enfeebled, you ARE gonna burn MP.
Too many people consider me a Refresh ***** due to my job, and its frustrating. Because I take great pride in playing my job to it's fullest and to the best of my capability, to only be needed for 1 spell is stupid. There is much more a RDM does than Refresh, and much more a BRD does than Ballad. Too many stupid, closed-minded people refuse to see this.
Alauce: i know of Roaming pts just not really ones with RDMs as main healer so thank you for a Valid reason to using it every time. Although I'm curious how easy Converting is or isn't in KRT being that's on skeletons. Also do you play more of say the "Rfresh *****" if its a mage heavy pt? Is there a point or the time to land all your debuffs? I only know personally of the Arrow/Mana and SMN burn PTs which none have relied on a RDM spacifically so I'm curious what all your role is as i haven't seen it.
Again ty^^
As to the 6mp a tic its nice but when a SMN can burn trough mp so fast that 8mp a tick isn't enough, if I'm asked to main heal and DD i want more well need more depending on the fights and pt set ups>.<
Again ty^^
As to the 6mp a tic its nice but when a SMN can burn trough mp so fast that 8mp a tick isn't enough, if I'm asked to main heal and DD i want more well need more depending on the fights and pt set ups>.<
Quote:
Although I'm curious how easy Converting is or isn't in KRT being that's on skeletons.
Really, it's not so hard. With three monks, it takes roughly twenty seconds to clear out a given area enough to have enough leeway to convert safely, and any aggro I do get has to get past three provokes, and stoneskin.
Quote:
Also do you play more of say the "Rfresh *****" if its a mage heavy pt?
To be quite honest... no. But then again, most of my parties any more consist of three monks, a BRD, and the White Mage, other than myself, so all I really have to do is refresh myself, the white mage, and occasionally bard, then I can go back to my normal role of status cures and hp regen.
Quote:
Is there a point or the time to land all your debuffs?
Dia II and Paralyze are generally all I have time to get off before the mob dies, and a lot of the time, I'll let the WHM do Dia II, just so they can work on enfeebling more.
Basically, my role in KRT and sky parties is to refresh the white mage, then act as a secondary white mage (mostly to remove statuses so they can focus on healing). It's an easy job, but I take great pride in getting status off as soon as possible.
The great myth: "Some exp is better than no exp!"
Reality: I do, in fact, have better things to do with my time than 1k exp per hour, be they in ffxi or real life... I could fish, I could level crafting, I could help friends with things, or I could do any number of non-ffxi related activities rather than party for 20 hours just to get one level post 60...
I am a PLD, and it's my experience that without mp refresh, I can't tank past chain 1 or 2. Mages can keep their mp going pretty well, but I run out after every fight from doing my job, which is holding hate. Once i'm out of MP, I'm no longer a tank. I'm just a WAR with sentinel and shield bash who does no damage and doesn't have Utsusemi from NIN sub, ie worthless.
Juice works fairly well as a replacement for RDM and BRD- in fact, if you had an entire pt of juice users you could use one of those slots for damage and possibly do really well. There are some distinct disadvantages to juice versus refreshers however.
#1- Everyone with MP must have at least 30 cooking for pineapple juice, which is the first juice at all worth synthing. But if you want juice that doesn't suck hardcore compared to ballad or refresh, you're going to need 40ish for melon juice. Most people probably haven't leveled cooking at all, so unless you plan this for a set pt, it's not gonna happen.
#2- Juice ingredients are limited. Even with GB 6, which most people don't have done, you can only carry enough for 4-5 stacks of 12 of pineapple or melon juices, realistically. While that's quite a bit of juice, you're going to need to chug it constatnly to come even close to what a RDM or BRD can do for you, so it will run out fast and limit your partying time.
#3- Juices take time to synth. You can't bring in that many of them pre-synthed, so you'll have to pause to make more. If you're well organized, you should be able to do it between chains. But it still cuts heavily into resting time and slows you down compared to a RDM or BRD party.
Really, what I'm so confused about is the shortage of RDMs and BRDs! I look in my level range (61)- 15 PLDs, 5 seeking, 3 RDMs, all in pts. This happens ALL THE TIME. If RDM is such an easy job to level, why don't more people do it? Being a refresh ***** must suck pretty bad @.@ Regardless, enough whining. Onto the conclusion:
You CAN pt without a RDM or BRD with a PLD tank, if the mages and the PLD use juice. But it's inferior, your exp will be slower, and it's probably never gonna happen the way it needs to, unless you're talking about a static pt. So, why bother? Just wait for a RDM or BRD, or go with a NIN tank.
Reality: I do, in fact, have better things to do with my time than 1k exp per hour, be they in ffxi or real life... I could fish, I could level crafting, I could help friends with things, or I could do any number of non-ffxi related activities rather than party for 20 hours just to get one level post 60...
I am a PLD, and it's my experience that without mp refresh, I can't tank past chain 1 or 2. Mages can keep their mp going pretty well, but I run out after every fight from doing my job, which is holding hate. Once i'm out of MP, I'm no longer a tank. I'm just a WAR with sentinel and shield bash who does no damage and doesn't have Utsusemi from NIN sub, ie worthless.
Juice works fairly well as a replacement for RDM and BRD- in fact, if you had an entire pt of juice users you could use one of those slots for damage and possibly do really well. There are some distinct disadvantages to juice versus refreshers however.
#1- Everyone with MP must have at least 30 cooking for pineapple juice, which is the first juice at all worth synthing. But if you want juice that doesn't suck hardcore compared to ballad or refresh, you're going to need 40ish for melon juice. Most people probably haven't leveled cooking at all, so unless you plan this for a set pt, it's not gonna happen.
#2- Juice ingredients are limited. Even with GB 6, which most people don't have done, you can only carry enough for 4-5 stacks of 12 of pineapple or melon juices, realistically. While that's quite a bit of juice, you're going to need to chug it constatnly to come even close to what a RDM or BRD can do for you, so it will run out fast and limit your partying time.
#3- Juices take time to synth. You can't bring in that many of them pre-synthed, so you'll have to pause to make more. If you're well organized, you should be able to do it between chains. But it still cuts heavily into resting time and slows you down compared to a RDM or BRD party.
Really, what I'm so confused about is the shortage of RDMs and BRDs! I look in my level range (61)- 15 PLDs, 5 seeking, 3 RDMs, all in pts. This happens ALL THE TIME. If RDM is such an easy job to level, why don't more people do it? Being a refresh ***** must suck pretty bad @.@ Regardless, enough whining. Onto the conclusion:
You CAN pt without a RDM or BRD with a PLD tank, if the mages and the PLD use juice. But it's inferior, your exp will be slower, and it's probably never gonna happen the way it needs to, unless you're talking about a static pt. So, why bother? Just wait for a RDM or BRD, or go with a NIN tank.
Quote:
If RDM is such an easy job to level, why don't more people do it? Being a refresh ***** must suck pretty bad @.@ Regardless, enough whining. Onto the conclusion:
That's weird, because I was under the impression that RDM wasn't that easy to level before level 41.
People will choose a WHM over a RDM for main healer, and people will choose a BLM over a RDM for a nuker. That low of a level, the RDM isn't able to shine so well because they don't have more mp to work with.
It seems the only time the low level RDM got parties after seeking for hours is if a party wanted to see if they could get by with the RDM main healing, or it was a party leader who would make a setup with any jobs healing.
Don't get me wrong, I don't by any means think RDM sucks or that it's only for refreshing, but the community doesn't seem to like them very much until they get refresh. Once they get refresh, they welcome them with open arms. (Reminds me of an Adema song...)
Wow, you come on a little strong Annalise... Do you troll intentionally or is it just a character trait that you try to read what other people write in the worst possible way? I didn't mean to say that all a RDM does is refresh, what I'm referring to by refresh-whoring is the fact that a good deal of your time and mp is spent casting refresh post 41. I've met quite a few people who got RDM to that level and couldn't stand it, so they quit. But they loved RDM up to that point...
But you do introduce a good point- RDM is not easy to level at all pre 41, or at the very least pre-dispel. Most people don't recognize the value of an enfeebling mage so they either ask RDMs to main heal or don't invite them. The funny thing, though, is that I see RDMs all_the_time at low levels. One day in the jungles I had a 3 rdm party (blech), then the next day a 2 rdm pt, then another 2 rdm pt on that same day... Post 41, though (or more notably in the 60s) I can't find a RDM to save my life. You'd think it's because they all get snapped up fast, but usually there are only 3-5 in my range logged in, which leads me to believe that they are actually quite rare, hence the statement at the end of my post which you so kindly flamed me about.
But you do introduce a good point- RDM is not easy to level at all pre 41, or at the very least pre-dispel. Most people don't recognize the value of an enfeebling mage so they either ask RDMs to main heal or don't invite them. The funny thing, though, is that I see RDMs all_the_time at low levels. One day in the jungles I had a 3 rdm party (blech), then the next day a 2 rdm pt, then another 2 rdm pt on that same day... Post 41, though (or more notably in the 60s) I can't find a RDM to save my life. You'd think it's because they all get snapped up fast, but usually there are only 3-5 in my range logged in, which leads me to believe that they are actually quite rare, hence the statement at the end of my post which you so kindly flamed me about.
As I see this one will never end so let me show both side of story. I am both a rng and rdm so I have been on both side. Me as a rng hell yes I want a rdm or brd in my pt. Arrows, bullets, bolts, and shihei are not cheap I dont want a pt that I will have to use so many just to kill one mob. I like my mobs buffed up like a pornstar, but diff pt diff set ups. The tank will be the choice for your set up, if pld is tank I will not join a pt without a rdm or brd. If Nin is tank a smn will do just fine. There is also the fact waiting for a brd or rdm and find one that sucks worst than not having one(God so many suck to).
Now for rdm the reason you see so many rdms pre 41 cause the job is easy then anyone can be a rdm. Most ppl want to lvl rdm cause the hear stories of the great rdm/nin soloing anything they want. After 41 they see the job is to damn hard for them. Rdm, Nin and Pld are the hardest jobs to be good at so most will quit. Most rdm really dont know how to play the job(if you want the most xp an hr please dont melee) debuffing and buffing a mob is the best thing anyone can do in a pt this will keep your pt alive.
I came to understand rdm this job will always keep you on your toes if you can handle it dont lvl it. I main heal even with a pld I still refresh, debuff, and buff mob, sleep link, silence mobs, mb when I can, convert and more. Yes this is to much to ask of a ppl but the good will have no problem. When we are not the main healer we got it easy only thing that pisses me off is when a ppl ask for f ing refresh when I just cast on someone like chainspell is a trait /slap /wait you will get yours. I think all pt should have a good brd or rdm not just have one a bad takes up space get a smn. My goal as a rdm do whatever I can to help and make pt better never panic I got this.
Edited, Mon Jul 18 08:44:40 2005 by snakeeyesOfBismark
Now for rdm the reason you see so many rdms pre 41 cause the job is easy then anyone can be a rdm. Most ppl want to lvl rdm cause the hear stories of the great rdm/nin soloing anything they want. After 41 they see the job is to damn hard for them. Rdm, Nin and Pld are the hardest jobs to be good at so most will quit. Most rdm really dont know how to play the job(if you want the most xp an hr please dont melee) debuffing and buffing a mob is the best thing anyone can do in a pt this will keep your pt alive.
I came to understand rdm this job will always keep you on your toes if you can handle it dont lvl it. I main heal even with a pld I still refresh, debuff, and buff mob, sleep link, silence mobs, mb when I can, convert and more. Yes this is to much to ask of a ppl but the good will have no problem. When we are not the main healer we got it easy only thing that pisses me off is when a ppl ask for f ing refresh when I just cast on someone like chainspell is a trait /slap /wait you will get yours. I think all pt should have a good brd or rdm not just have one a bad takes up space get a smn. My goal as a rdm do whatever I can to help and make pt better never panic I got this.
Edited, Mon Jul 18 08:44:40 2005 by snakeeyesOfBismark
"Rasen" wrote:
But when you have 5 people waiting and other suitable (but refresh-lacking) jobs LFP, you need to start asking yourself if the increased EXP from better chains is really worth sitting around Jeuno with your thumb up your butt for another hour getting 0 EXP.
Hm, well, let's see.
Let's say the people in your group have 3 hours.
You can either grab just any job, go ahead, and make 2k-ish per hour, for 2:45 hours (counting the time it takes to reach the place), getting you all a bit under 6k xp.
Or you can wait from 10 minutes to 1hour for a job with refresh and dispel (never forget dispel, in this world filled with crabs!) and make... I dunno, 5-8k/hr, during 1:45 to 2:35 hours. For a total of 8.75 to 20.5k xp.
Hm, yeah, I think I'd rather wait.
(I'm not saying it's impossible to get good xp without them, but on average, it's not often that it happens. So take this whole post as a generalization, I am aware that it does not apply to 100% of parties.)
Edited, Mon Jul 18 12:48:21 2005 by Niji
Quote:
Now for rdm the reason you see so many rdms pre 41 cause the job is easy then anyone can be a rdm. Most ppl want to lvl rdm cause the hear stories of the great rdm/nin soloing anything they want. After 41 they see the job is to damn hard for them.
RDM isn't much harder or easier than any other job pre 41 IMO- you have to cast your enfeebles, keep them up, decide when it's time to melee and when it's time to rest, when to throw out a backup cure, you have to magic burst...
The PROBLEM is that often, especially among new players, nobody knows what the hell a RDM is for. In the eyes of your average noob, a RDM is a mage who fights. Your noob RDM will find the job especially easy because not only do they not know what they're supposed to do, neither do most of their parties. They will not do anything, and they will not be asked to do anything. They're free to wear total junk gear, cast enwater vs crabs and pugs, and swing their sword for 1-5 damage plus 0 additional. Unless called upon to main heal, a RDM can get all the way through CN without doing anything at all. Once they hit Dispel, however, "I don't have dispel cuz I'm broke" starts to hinder their partying and those noob RDMs start to change jobs.
Please, no flames. This is not a troll- many low level RDMs are very good, even ones who are new players. When I say noob, I mean people who are not only ignorant, but are too stupid or lazy to learn. They're out there, we all know it.
The point in the above post is valid, of course. I'm just emphasizing that going from not having to do ANYTHING if they don't want to to having to keep refresh up all the time or be yelled at/kicked is a pretty huge step. I think many people who find the job "too hard" post 41 are those who thought they were ub3r l337 fighting mages rather than some of the best support characters in the game.
Another reason why people drop RDM post 41, I think, is that they no longer enjoy it. I've talked to people who drop the job simply because they don't /like/ casting refresh all the time. They may have been very good RDMs up to that point, doing everything they're supposed to, but refresh totally changes the way a RDM plays. They can no longer melee all the time because they need to manage the huge mp cost of refresh while still making sure all their enfeebles are up. Really, because it costs so much MP, refreshing becomes the center of a RDMs strategy- how to keep refresh up and still do the rest of your job requires a substantial shift in play styles. If you played RDM up to 41 with no real idea of what you were in for, you could definitely be up for a very big shock.
20 posts
it realy dosent matter to me if u have a rdm in the party but if was up to me i would never invite a bard because of the massive lagg the cause
20 posts
just to let u know if were up to me i would never hav a bard in the party cause of the massive lag any ways i would be expected to be payed from a party that u probably needed in the first place
It is not wrong to expect either a brd or smn in the pt post 50, and even before then xp is a lot tougher without one. I'm obviously referring to the refresh aspect, but thats not the only erason by far. They are also the only job with dispel/finale (Unless you use Fenrir's BP, but with casting time, recast time, etc, it is not efficient at all.) Also, they are used to debuff the monsters in many ways, brds use songs, rdms use spells. It still makes a significant difference. Finally, they can do a few cures at the beginning of the fight when the whm still needs just a little more rest time to have enough MP for the fight. Brd especially offers a variety of buffs for the entire party. Rdm can do decent damage when they get a good MB in.
The whole reason behind people demanding Refresh/Ballad, methinks, is that so many people have leveled RDM and BRD (well, actually just RDM) to 70+ and end-game already. It's not hard to find someone on the Race forums that has 75 Red Mage/40 Summoner/38 White Mage...etc. I say it's the people who have come to expect a RDM or BRD to be lfp all through their leveling to end-game only then to discover their shortage when they level their sub/second main.
Don't think I'm trying to bash anyone or any job here since I'm not. I'm just putting out a theory I had when I saw this thread. Before you bash me in retaliation, know that I'm a 44 RDM as well as a DRG so I've had some experience in that field myself.
Don't think I'm trying to bash anyone or any job here since I'm not. I'm just putting out a theory I had when I saw this thread. Before you bash me in retaliation, know that I'm a 44 RDM as well as a DRG so I've had some experience in that field myself.
u reallydont need a rdm or a brd to have a sucessful pt. All the pt im in now as my lv 58whm they want a rdm or a brd so they can minimize down time, then the pt of 5 with no brd or rdm is ussualy sitting there w8ting for either 5min to 2hrs just to get a rdm or a brd. U really dont need a rdm or a brd to go pting with, they just help minimize down time. and faster chains
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