Quote:
Never again will I PT with a PLD as a whm.
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- People who do hate paladin, don't be mean
People who do hate paladin, don't be meanFollow
Guess this will be stirring the pot quite a bit, but you did say it...
Because I have a set tank now XD. OK I admit I wrote what I was thinking in correctly :P The Jaden can be wrong, but only sometimes
I've leveled pld to 75 and ninja to 68. After you get to 50+ or so, the exp with ninja isn't usually better then pld. But what alot of people like to do is get a ninja tank then fight things harder then they should be fighting, so the exp per kill is really high. To many people are into exp per kill over exp per hour. I hear people always say there blm pty is getting 300+ exp per kill and making 10K+ an hour. 4 hours later they haven't leveled. Mass chaining VTs is usually the fastest way to get exp. The only time a ninja pty is better is when you are fighting mobs that hit really hard, but die really easy.
When I level ninja I don't usually like a whm in the pty unless I'm fighting things that require removing a lot of status effects. Most whms in ninja ptys cast haste then go afk. Then when something goes wrong, I'm dead and 5 mins later when whm is back from afk they raise me.
Yesterday I left a pty because in 2 hours+ of leveling the whm not once removed a single status effect from me and rarely cured me. I got haste then nothing.
When I level ninja I don't usually like a whm in the pty unless I'm fighting things that require removing a lot of status effects. Most whms in ninja ptys cast haste then go afk. Then when something goes wrong, I'm dead and 5 mins later when whm is back from afk they raise me.
Yesterday I left a pty because in 2 hours+ of leveling the whm not once removed a single status effect from me and rarely cured me. I got haste then nothing.
It hurts to say as a white mage, but Grimmy is right. Now I actually do remove status effects and such if I'm in a ninja-tank party, but it is certainly less engaging than if I was in a paladin-led party. I get bored. So, I drink a Diet Coke or something while I wait for the next pull to haste the ninja and such. In a high level party with a ninja tanking, I would suggest the following for a
Sploitz Party
Ninja/Warrior: Main tank. In addition to bringing elemental enfeeblement to the battleground to exploit weaknesses, the ninja participates in skillchains with katana.
Emergency - Mijin gakure. Massive damage at no xp loss so the ninja can eat a Raise 1 from red mage or summoner (or just use a scroll, gorget, or hairpin).
Dragoon/Warrior: Support DD. The dragoon will provide (even pre-update) signifigant damage with polearm attacks and weapon skills. The warrior aspect will act as a first 'voke for the Dark Knight's SATA on the Ninja as well as have the wyvern attack the mob's elemental weakness (enhanced by the ninjutsu).
Emergency - Right now the wyvern is it, but after this next update a dragoon will be imbued with strength and special powerful jump abilities.
Dark Knight/Thief: Support DD. More massive melee damage not to mention SATA with a great sword or scythe. In addition, the mob can be crippled by absorbption spells. Treasure Hunter doesn't hurt either.
Emergency - Blood Weapon is like a self-Benediction, especially if used in conjunction with Soul Eater or Last Resort which will also cause the mob more damage.
Red Mage/Dark Knight: Battle mage. With a dagger or sword, this red mage is right up in combat adding more to skillchains and melee damage (made more effective with "En-" spells). Red mages also do the other duties the job requires.
Emergency - Chainspell to nuke, which works even better if Convert is available.
Black Mage/White Mage: Raw elemental magic for magic bursts as well as elemental enfeeblement spells (to further cripple the mob) such as Rasp. White mage sub gives some healing and status effect removal support. Let's not forget Sleep, Warp 2, Escape, and such.
Emergency - Mana Font. Unlimited power. A deluge of nukes on an already enfeebled monster.
Summoner/White Mage: This is pure elemental melee (with some magic too). Summoners also have unique party buffs and monster enfeebs. As the tank is a ninja, there isn't much healing needed and the red mage can always cast high-lev prot/shell as needed.
Emergency - Astral Flow. I don't need to say anything more.
See why it is difficult for me to bring this up? This party would work so well and all without a white mage. I suppose if you wanted to tweak it a little bit you can have a BLM/RDM for fast cast. This may even make another interesting "battle mage" because the black mage can use Phalanx and Stoneskin with its dagger (or even scythe!) skills. The red mage could also sub black for a bit more mp or the ability in an emergency to chainspell other spells, but at its cost to be effective melee.
Sploitz Party
Ninja/Warrior: Main tank. In addition to bringing elemental enfeeblement to the battleground to exploit weaknesses, the ninja participates in skillchains with katana.
Emergency - Mijin gakure. Massive damage at no xp loss so the ninja can eat a Raise 1 from red mage or summoner (or just use a scroll, gorget, or hairpin).
Dragoon/Warrior: Support DD. The dragoon will provide (even pre-update) signifigant damage with polearm attacks and weapon skills. The warrior aspect will act as a first 'voke for the Dark Knight's SATA on the Ninja as well as have the wyvern attack the mob's elemental weakness (enhanced by the ninjutsu).
Emergency - Right now the wyvern is it, but after this next update a dragoon will be imbued with strength and special powerful jump abilities.
Dark Knight/Thief: Support DD. More massive melee damage not to mention SATA with a great sword or scythe. In addition, the mob can be crippled by absorbption spells. Treasure Hunter doesn't hurt either.
Emergency - Blood Weapon is like a self-Benediction, especially if used in conjunction with Soul Eater or Last Resort which will also cause the mob more damage.
Red Mage/Dark Knight: Battle mage. With a dagger or sword, this red mage is right up in combat adding more to skillchains and melee damage (made more effective with "En-" spells). Red mages also do the other duties the job requires.
Emergency - Chainspell to nuke, which works even better if Convert is available.
Black Mage/White Mage: Raw elemental magic for magic bursts as well as elemental enfeeblement spells (to further cripple the mob) such as Rasp. White mage sub gives some healing and status effect removal support. Let's not forget Sleep, Warp 2, Escape, and such.
Emergency - Mana Font. Unlimited power. A deluge of nukes on an already enfeebled monster.
Summoner/White Mage: This is pure elemental melee (with some magic too). Summoners also have unique party buffs and monster enfeebs. As the tank is a ninja, there isn't much healing needed and the red mage can always cast high-lev prot/shell as needed.
Emergency - Astral Flow. I don't need to say anything more.
See why it is difficult for me to bring this up? This party would work so well and all without a white mage. I suppose if you wanted to tweak it a little bit you can have a BLM/RDM for fast cast. This may even make another interesting "battle mage" because the black mage can use Phalanx and Stoneskin with its dagger (or even scythe!) skills. The red mage could also sub black for a bit more mp or the ability in an emergency to chainspell other spells, but at its cost to be effective melee.
BismarkGrimson wrote:
When I level ninja I don't usually like a whm in the pty unless I'm fighting things that require removing a lot of status effects. Most whms in ninja ptys cast haste then go afk. Then when something goes wrong, I'm dead and 5 mins later when whm is back from afk they raise me.
That means the WHM isn't doing their job, because even in a NIN PT there's a good bit for me as a WHM to do, such as Regen, Haste, Erase, -na spells, bar-ra spells, and Protect/Shell.
There's 5 other members of the PT to worry about. I know I don't just stick Haste on the NIN and run - I'm worried about keeping up my spell cycles!
I agree, if I have a NIN tank then the party shouldn't ever have to stop killing because you should always have MP. I usually haste all the DD's, remove any status effects, bar spells if needed, regen where appropriate, and try to rest inbetween to keep the MP bar up.
For the record.... Paladins named Coldstone rock. Paladins named Joemomma or Joecamel suck. And so do NINs. And beets.
I would perfer 2 blms to a whm when I level ninja. Blm can cure, stun,remove statuses, and most important MB. I probably will eat an r1, but the exp gain over a whm is worth it.
I think 1 ninja, 2 sam/thf, 1 bard, 2 blm is about the best exp you can get.
I think 1 ninja, 2 sam/thf, 1 bard, 2 blm is about the best exp you can get.
At level 75 I would take any of the same job parties (MNK, WAR, BLM). But my personally favorite would be NINx4 (good gear, mind you) BRDx2. And this all-of-a-sudden has nothing to do with the original topic. XD Sorry about that.
13 posts
I place heavy preference on Paladin over Ninja.
Two sentences:
-There are some things a Paladin can do that a Ninja can't.
-There are some things a Ninja can do that a Paladin can't.
That's basically all it comes down to. Disregarding equipment and player skill, Ninjas are superior in some situations while Paladins are just as superior in other situations. Two very simple examples are Seiryu and Genbu.
Seiryu wipes shadows often, spams Slow+Silence with Radiant Breath, and Paralyze with Dread Shriek(?). I don't deny that a Ninja can tank Seiryu, I've seen it done, but the fact remains a Paladin will tank it safer and more reliably.
Genbu hits slow but like a Mack truck. The only dangers of wiping shadows are Waterga which can be easily stunned and Poisonga. Ninja is obviously the superior tank because they can blink off 99% of the damage, while a Paladin would get torn up. Again, I've tanked Genbu myself as a Paladin so I know it can be done, but it would've been much easier with a blinktank up front.
CoP constantly flips back and forth. You'll find blinktanks worth their weight in gold in the first three Promyvions. I went 0/5 as a Paladin, but tanked all three effortlessly in one night as a WAR/NIN. The Ninja in my CoP set proved herself in the Ultima and Omega fights, blinking off all of the massive single-target attacks from Ultima after our PLD's Invincible wore off. At the same time, my own Invincible and ability to self-cure (as well as kiting experience from Kirin o.o) saved us in Promyvion-Vazhl, and Invincible was amazingly effective at holding hate over two RDMs using Chainspell Fire II against Snoll Tzar. My CoP set had the advantage of four of our members having secondary jobs which gave us flexibility. Ironically, the two who did not were a Ninja and Paladin.
I'm 100% sure that someone with Paladin as their only job can complete CoP to the end. "If the Monkeyblizy can do it, so can you!"â„¢
You said it yourself in your original post. Each job has its utility, and it's up to you to utilize and exploit that utility to its fullest. Don't listen to people who say PLD is totally useless, they're just morons.
-There are some things a Paladin can do that a Ninja can't.
-There are some things a Ninja can do that a Paladin can't.
That's basically all it comes down to. Disregarding equipment and player skill, Ninjas are superior in some situations while Paladins are just as superior in other situations. Two very simple examples are Seiryu and Genbu.
Seiryu wipes shadows often, spams Slow+Silence with Radiant Breath, and Paralyze with Dread Shriek(?). I don't deny that a Ninja can tank Seiryu, I've seen it done, but the fact remains a Paladin will tank it safer and more reliably.
Genbu hits slow but like a Mack truck. The only dangers of wiping shadows are Waterga which can be easily stunned and Poisonga. Ninja is obviously the superior tank because they can blink off 99% of the damage, while a Paladin would get torn up. Again, I've tanked Genbu myself as a Paladin so I know it can be done, but it would've been much easier with a blinktank up front.
CoP constantly flips back and forth. You'll find blinktanks worth their weight in gold in the first three Promyvions. I went 0/5 as a Paladin, but tanked all three effortlessly in one night as a WAR/NIN. The Ninja in my CoP set proved herself in the Ultima and Omega fights, blinking off all of the massive single-target attacks from Ultima after our PLD's Invincible wore off. At the same time, my own Invincible and ability to self-cure (as well as kiting experience from Kirin o.o) saved us in Promyvion-Vazhl, and Invincible was amazingly effective at holding hate over two RDMs using Chainspell Fire II against Snoll Tzar. My CoP set had the advantage of four of our members having secondary jobs which gave us flexibility. Ironically, the two who did not were a Ninja and Paladin.
I'm 100% sure that someone with Paladin as their only job can complete CoP to the end. "If the Monkeyblizy can do it, so can you!"â„¢
You said it yourself in your original post. Each job has its utility, and it's up to you to utilize and exploit that utility to its fullest. Don't listen to people who say PLD is totally useless, they're just morons.
Quote:
For the record.... Paladins named Coldstone rock. Paladins named Joemomma or Joecamel suck. And so do NINs. And beets.
Joemomma is actually on my blist when I partied with him a long time ago in Qufim - he was a different job w/ war subbed (i forget what main job - but not nin) and insisted on tanking (I'm a PLD) so he kept voking and voking - and I let him because I asked him nicely 3 times to let me main tank - and then he died after voking. lol.
I partied w/ Coldstone yesterday (he was BRD/WHM) and he rocks! So I can only imagine how good a PLD he is.
Alotof you are right in your posts about NIN being able to tank this and PLD able to tank that, I'm a PLD myself (67), I love the job, it's fun, it's interesting to have a NIN in the pt trying to out-tank me as well, but anywho I'm not saying I'm better than any NIN or something of the sort. Every job has it's weak and strong points, although I blame my lack of pt invites to Ninjas, doesn't mean I hate them entirely, since I prefer them when I play as THF.
As a min BLM I have a heavy preference towards PLD tanks. So much so that I went and lvled the job a little bit because see a few good PLDs in action inspired me to do so, and also becuase several folks told me a tarutrau could not make a good PLD, and I am devil's advocate by nature.
That being said there good NIN tanks as well. The problem isnt that either of the jobs is actually better at tanking. The problem is that (just like every other member of your party)the party will have a different play feel depending on which type of tank you have. Both types of tanks have needs from other party memebers to do thier job well. And realisticly if you dont understand the needs of your tank to do his job correctly then of course its going to be a bad experience.
Instead of looking at them comparatively as to which one ios a better tank in a general sense, I think folks should just realize that there is more than one way to go about tanking a mob, and try and play in way that support the tank that is in thier PTs strong suits and try to get EXP.
******** and moaning over which tank is better nets 0 EXP per hour. And tanking the mob and hate management falls on the entire PT to manage. I think the real issue with the whole PLD vs. NIN tank debate has very little to do with the tanking capabilites of either job. They can both do it, and they can both do it well. It has to do with favoritism and the play knowledge of the rest of the PT. For instance if you have players that heavily prefer one of the two and dont usually form parties with the other type, then often times they dont perform in parties with thier unpreferred tank as they should. This is not tha fault of the tank or the job. Its the fault of the other pt members (Please note: I am not saying that the tank is never to blame. The are PLENTY of crappy tanks, but it has to do with players not jobs).
So I encorage everyone to try several party set-ups, and instead of worrying over which job is better at this and that, just try and do the best with what you have and have a good time. This how skill is gained and friends are made.; JOb is nothing attitude and skill is everything. Hell, ive seen RDM that are better tanks than most PLD or NIN that I know, and when I see it it just drives my attitude home for me. The success of the PT in every aspect of it has to do with every member of the PT. And there are plenty of ways to deal with hate and damage dealt by mobs. Dont be so narrow minded as to think there is only one. By doing so you are really robbing yourself of a really fun part of the game.
Gob
That being said there good NIN tanks as well. The problem isnt that either of the jobs is actually better at tanking. The problem is that (just like every other member of your party)the party will have a different play feel depending on which type of tank you have. Both types of tanks have needs from other party memebers to do thier job well. And realisticly if you dont understand the needs of your tank to do his job correctly then of course its going to be a bad experience.
Instead of looking at them comparatively as to which one ios a better tank in a general sense, I think folks should just realize that there is more than one way to go about tanking a mob, and try and play in way that support the tank that is in thier PTs strong suits and try to get EXP.
******** and moaning over which tank is better nets 0 EXP per hour. And tanking the mob and hate management falls on the entire PT to manage. I think the real issue with the whole PLD vs. NIN tank debate has very little to do with the tanking capabilites of either job. They can both do it, and they can both do it well. It has to do with favoritism and the play knowledge of the rest of the PT. For instance if you have players that heavily prefer one of the two and dont usually form parties with the other type, then often times they dont perform in parties with thier unpreferred tank as they should. This is not tha fault of the tank or the job. Its the fault of the other pt members (Please note: I am not saying that the tank is never to blame. The are PLENTY of crappy tanks, but it has to do with players not jobs).
So I encorage everyone to try several party set-ups, and instead of worrying over which job is better at this and that, just try and do the best with what you have and have a good time. This how skill is gained and friends are made.; JOb is nothing attitude and skill is everything. Hell, ive seen RDM that are better tanks than most PLD or NIN that I know, and when I see it it just drives my attitude home for me. The success of the PT in every aspect of it has to do with every member of the PT. And there are plenty of ways to deal with hate and damage dealt by mobs. Dont be so narrow minded as to think there is only one. By doing so you are really robbing yourself of a really fun part of the game.
Gob
I used to prefer a Pld over a Nin simply because most of the Nin's I ran into just couldn't hold hate. These parties were mostly between 50 to early 60's. However, I have had the privelege to see some damn good Nin tanks. Ane let me tell you, I'm glad I have. It helped me to get rid of my negative opinion.
Now on to thinking out of the box. I've been in some quite interesting party set ups in my time (all Galka party anyone? lol) and I've been in some of those typical set-ups that people look for and shout for for quests/BCNM's and what not. All have worked good and all have worked quite terribly. It all just boils down to how each person in the party plays and what level of skill they have in doing their job.
To those people who will not accept anything other than the "reccomended setup" I say this: Try an odd set-up once or twice and see how it goes. I can almost guarantee that they will be fun or somewhat interesting to say the least.
Edited, Thu Dec 15 16:23:45 2005 by SirotheDrg
Now on to thinking out of the box. I've been in some quite interesting party set ups in my time (all Galka party anyone? lol) and I've been in some of those typical set-ups that people look for and shout for for quests/BCNM's and what not. All have worked good and all have worked quite terribly. It all just boils down to how each person in the party plays and what level of skill they have in doing their job.
To those people who will not accept anything other than the "reccomended setup" I say this: Try an odd set-up once or twice and see how it goes. I can almost guarantee that they will be fun or somewhat interesting to say the least.
Edited, Thu Dec 15 16:23:45 2005 by SirotheDrg
Siroggel
Drg: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?160201
War: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?160345
(These are out of date, and I'm too lazy to keep up)
Bismarck
Drg: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?160201
War: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?160345
(These are out of date, and I'm too lazy to keep up)
Bismarck
i just hit 75 with my pld after 2 years, and ill never xp with it again.
i hate the job i used to love so much.
doing sky or dynamis, im expected to die so many times.
after i do dynamis or sky, my own ls mates wont even send an invite for xp pts.
when ive died 5 or 6 times already in dynamis, and a mnk or blm who can join a manaburn or mnk pt, cries about a raise2... it burns my ***.
ill never do another favor for anyone with that pld, no more zms or coffer keys because the very same people i wasted so much time on abandoned me.
pld job is a rewardless job.
i loved that job, now i hate the 3 letters its represented by.
Thank you SE.
i hate the job i used to love so much.
doing sky or dynamis, im expected to die so many times.
after i do dynamis or sky, my own ls mates wont even send an invite for xp pts.
when ive died 5 or 6 times already in dynamis, and a mnk or blm who can join a manaburn or mnk pt, cries about a raise2... it burns my ***.
ill never do another favor for anyone with that pld, no more zms or coffer keys because the very same people i wasted so much time on abandoned me.
pld job is a rewardless job.
i loved that job, now i hate the 3 letters its represented by.
Thank you SE.
Gameslaver, I'm pretty sure I've been your white mage at least once. It is the people with whom you play that have turned you off from the job you loved, not SE. That is a very rude thing to do by not even offering to get you some lost xp back after taking one (literally) for the team in endgame events. It is true that paladins die a lot and is an unspoken part of the job, which is why (thinking as a white mage anyway) thinks that your sacrifices are worth the time it takes to get a few thousand xp back on your behalf.
For what it is worth, thanks for bucking up and playing this job. It takes a good amount of patience to do so! This is applicable to all you paladins out there. You have a unique niche to fill and often I feel guilty because for the most part because all I do is press (for my macros) Ctrl+1 90% of the party time. =/
For what it is worth, thanks for bucking up and playing this job. It takes a good amount of patience to do so! This is applicable to all you paladins out there. You have a unique niche to fill and often I feel guilty because for the most part because all I do is press (for my macros) Ctrl+1 90% of the party time. =/
Gameslave does bring up a good point.The attitude toward paladins is often downstraight negative in end-game exp parties or some events. Considered "Leechs(sp)" or gimping the exp because we can't deal damage while tanking and we cause downtime, its easy to get discoraged for the job. Plus! Seeing Nins who weren't lfp get parties faster than Plds who are lfp for several hours is downstraight depressing.
And then you have the "Pld can't tank this" or "You need a Nin for that BC/Mission/NM","This mob hit too hard","All paladins turn into Nins" etc. Which doesn't encourage people to keep playing as a Pld. If these sayings are founded or not.. it depends on the perspective. While it is true that Nin is more efficient in term of the MP consumed for the healing, it doesn't make them better. Some poor misleaded souls however did believe the contrary. A paladin will need more support than a Nin and many people seem to consider it a sign of superioty for ninjas, but yet they lack the foresight of seeing what a proprely supported paladin can offer.
Back there on the paladin forum,there is a thread wondering if Paladin is the new dragoon. Many argued that No, because Paladin has all the abilities the job need and has its usefulness in many ways.
Then someone just said Yes. Paladin is a new dragoon not because we aren't good enough.. but because we have a SOCIAL STIGMA on the class. Dragoon was never broken, but they were saw as bad DD because they couldn't Penta-spam. Ranger is not broken.. they still can do a lot of damage but a lot seem to think that Ranger is worthless now because they can't do the super damage they used to do.
-----------------------
But what can the Paladins do out there?
You can follow social pressure and just be another Mnk/War/Blm/Brd/Nin or whatever seem to be 1337 these days.
Or
You can play Paladin until the end and show the elitist bastards what a Paladin can do. Do all those "Paladin can't do this" BC/NM/Mission and make the short-sighted idiots see the light.
that's.. about.. it for now >.>
And then you have the "Pld can't tank this" or "You need a Nin for that BC/Mission/NM","This mob hit too hard","All paladins turn into Nins" etc. Which doesn't encourage people to keep playing as a Pld. If these sayings are founded or not.. it depends on the perspective. While it is true that Nin is more efficient in term of the MP consumed for the healing, it doesn't make them better. Some poor misleaded souls however did believe the contrary. A paladin will need more support than a Nin and many people seem to consider it a sign of superioty for ninjas, but yet they lack the foresight of seeing what a proprely supported paladin can offer.
Back there on the paladin forum,there is a thread wondering if Paladin is the new dragoon. Many argued that No, because Paladin has all the abilities the job need and has its usefulness in many ways.
Then someone just said Yes. Paladin is a new dragoon not because we aren't good enough.. but because we have a SOCIAL STIGMA on the class. Dragoon was never broken, but they were saw as bad DD because they couldn't Penta-spam. Ranger is not broken.. they still can do a lot of damage but a lot seem to think that Ranger is worthless now because they can't do the super damage they used to do.
-----------------------
But what can the Paladins do out there?
You can follow social pressure and just be another Mnk/War/Blm/Brd/Nin or whatever seem to be 1337 these days.
Or
You can play Paladin until the end and show the elitist bastards what a Paladin can do. Do all those "Paladin can't do this" BC/NM/Mission and make the short-sighted idiots see the light.
that's.. about.. it for now >.>
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