Goodbye IRONFollow

22 pages of bureaucracy written in outline form with multiple provisions so that every single aspect of the Linkshell could be regulated and absolutely no argument could exist ratified by an oligarchical council. This constitution would be so confusing and intricate that only the most intelligent members could make reasonable arguments, thus creating an environment where law evolves rather than devolves. However, this confusion would also create a bitterness among those who did not understand it and thus result in mass conspiracy theories of corruption and doubt in the leadership from the Linkshell proletariat class. Thereby defeating the entire purpose of bureaucracy and the inevitable and eventual downfall of the system.

Now for a serious response. Nammy baby, first I have to preface my response with the fact that it depends on the game :|. In terms of FFXI and other MMOs (which I haven't played and can't comment on legitimately, but will anyways), there definately needs to be an equal distribution of power between several members (odd number of members to prevent deadlocks) with checks and balances and double accounting of all business assets. An appropriate, but more importantly effective incentive system in place so that loyalty, diligence, and pure brute labor are rewarded and given a chance for advancement; much like the organization of a partnership/corporation. Lastly, a group of intelligent Linkshell members who are not a part of the leadership in order to get "outside" expert, rational opinions on issues in order to reduce the psychological effects of GroupThink.

While much of this is fairly unlikely albeit impossible because people are unable, unwilling, and not given enough incentives to put such effort into the game. I also believe that the majority of MMORPG populations constantly convey extreme doubt of trust in any partnership venture and usually leads to mutual defection of both parties. I believe a fair analogy is the Prisoner's Dilemma (which I won't explain, but you can look it up on Wikipedia.org).

The last thing I wish existed in MMORPGs were basically LS Consulting enterprises where experienced players who understand the business could help others solve problems of an LS for some sort of fee. However, building credibility and being able to convey actual results of such advice would be hard to convey (unless you had testimonial support).

Why can't there just be an overriding legal system/entity Nammy (which adorably sounds like Mammy)?!?!? Why oh why can't we simply govern ourselves (;'-';).

..and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

With great power comes great responsibility...sorry, just poked my head in and spiderman popped into my head.

You know, I did exactly that when we reformed Aurora to Eclipse. Spent a week or so drafting and redrafting our 'charter.' We still fell apart. Lots of ideas work on paper. So does communism. Then you put them into practice and human nature takes over and promptly screws everything up, especially in a society like FFXI's which is inherently flawed, skewed towards the most masochistic and self-flagellating 1% of its own members, who then cannibalize one another.

I think general MMO design itself is inherently flawed by virtue of being self-perpetuating. MMO devs have to put hooks in there somehow to keep you playing month to month past your initial purchase. You see this in any other forced ongoing continuity. Look at the stupid tricks a show like "Lost" uses just to perpetuate its own story. It's taken 3 years to tell 50 days of story because at most only 10 minutes of actual real new events happen in a given episode. FFXI self-perpetuates by making everything a time-consuming, often random chore. WoW self-perpetuates by giving the player constant, minor rewards and upgrades. Either design is an artifice since the master goal isn't delivering a tight, tuned experience, pushing forward an interesting narrative, or introducing new gameplay elements - the master goal is perpetuating the monthly subscription fee. A game like Gears of War, God of War, RE/Silent Hill series, or Crackdown is honed to deliver you an authentic, engaging 8-10 hour experience. You get directly to the main course and enjoy it, have a genuine experience, and you're done. The devs/artists don't have to create extra hoops for you to jump through simply to guarantee their continued necessity.

Other games like GTA series, Zelda series, FF main series deliver experiences much larger in scope, but still aiming toward a goal other than self-perpetuation (although FFXII has odd concessions towards the MMO influence for no reason, especially with regards to ultimate weapons - keep in mind I played enough FFXI to end up with a Ridill, dual Shadow, lots of other crap, but I gave up on some FFXII items because they were just too much, and I worked on that game, which should say something...30+ camping hours to get a rare drop in a single player game makes no sense whatsoever, an experience akin to giving yourself blue balls on purpose).

It's the same difference between ongoing series and films. A film takes you into its continuity for 2-3 hours but there's a definite beginning and ending, so the format itself doesn't encourage or discourage tricks; the product can simply be authentic, the story and characters can take the direction they should. A series that runs season to season and week to week faces different challenges, and a lot of the design and progress is a by-product of just attempting to self-perpetuate, rather than delivering the most honest or authentic product. See also why lighthearted sitcoms without hugely important continuity can last forever (Mash, Cosby, Cheers, Friends, Simpsons), but dramas never do (Dallas, um, the end).

At least with WoW they remembered to sort-of make it fun, like how Lost season one was actually pretty good (creating enough good faith for everyone to watch two more seasons, waiting patiently for the writers to remember how human beings actually behave when they're not being moved about like markers on a gameboard). But they're almost good on accident, counter to the trappings of their own formats.

Your pet names for Nam are disturbing beyond reason.

Luminaire

Edited, Mar 10th 2007 12:29pm by Uroboros

Hey Fear, I love you. You're like that guy no one likes and everyone ignores but who thinks people listen to him. We've moved on, this is another thread now. If you want to *** up the thread, go right ahead, we'll keep ignoring you.

Now I know what you're thinking, how can I both acknowledge and ignore at the same time? Well, this is the internet! Import driving E-thugs ain't no thang.

I was one of the major reasons that the Aurora thing didn't pan out. I think the reason it happened was the same reason that all LS's and all internet folk can't simply govern themselves. The internet, in the large doses an MMO requires, makes us cranky, depressed, edgy, and bitter. I cracked under the pressure of trying to build something that needed tremendous pressure while also dealing with school bureaucracy not going in my favor. The phrase Absolute power corrupts is used all the time but i've always felt that it's a fallacy because really, who the @#%^ ever has absolute power. It's limited power in a limited facility. That saying is a cop out to trying new things that don't work out.

In order for an entirely internet based group to work out, I really think that there needs to be some sort of human side to it all. In other words, some of the heads of the group need to know each other; or at least have the ability to reach out and touch one another if need be.

However, a problem lies then in the distribution of items. If everyone at the head of the group recieves their items first, then you're going to have to deal with some grumbling in the back ground with regard to favoritism. IRON was successful because the group at the head of it mostly knew each other as friends in real life and they didn't give a damn about the grumbling. They put it on the table that yeah, they were about themselves. You wanted stuff? Then help them get stuff; you'll get it eventually as long as the group is successful.

I guess what i'm saying is that internet based friendships often need a human factor in order to move past the restrictions of a purely net based ideal. Only internet interaction leads to incorrect assumptions that are often enhanced and exacerbated beyond any normal scope.

Gameplay, I agree a lot with what the Uro has to say as he and I have talked about it ad nauseum and probably always will at some point. I liked FFXI because it required teamwork to get just one item. I liked that FFXI had @#%^ups like Fear and these idiots that think they know everything. It made the experience that much better when you outclaim said idiot and get the thing they wanted. It's like the game made bad sportsmen out of all of us and we liked it because we all had groups of somewhat like minded individuals wanting the same stuff.

But, this leads to the one thing that made FFXI intolerable at times: "As long as you get the claim, you'll get the item."

Bots, ping times, so much made FFXI suck so much to play. Competition over resources make people take extrordinary means to get what they wanted. Is it their fault? Probably not, because we all laughed at people who got claim and died. We're all bad people in this game, FFXI makes us into bad people.

I didn't like WoW because it didn't teach you the same teamwork that FFXI did. I like teamwork, I like corroboration. It's not for everyone but that's what I like. Sure you have instances but it takes away from what I found fun about MMO's, competition.

My dream MMO sort of revolves around competition and companionship on a much more global scale. Virtual worlds are fun, the PVP horde vs alliance aspect is fun, but why not make it bigger? Why not make the cities destructible? Why not make a class, 'shop owner?' Why not give the players complete control?

That said, the Conan MMO interests me the most at the moment. If what i've read is true, it's what i'm looking for in an MMO. I just hope they don't mess it up. It's sad that other games have approached that idea but fail simply based on the idea that you need people to live in the games in order to do things. Why not have your guy set up to do tasks like tend shop and such and then send you a txt message if he dies? Why not incorporate more real world communication ideals into an MMO?

I guess it takes money but i'd love to see it. This is why the Star Trek MMO seems awesome.

It also takes ease of play to make people play your game. WoW is so easy a 10 year old can be old hat in a few weeks. People play the game so much because it's so easy to get stuff. I think a good balance needs to be found. A game so deep and so shallow as to get everyone to play at all times. WoW doesn't have it but is close; what would a game like that be like? It's what I wish Star Wars Galaxies had become.

I guess I went a bit random. But, I think you can glean a bit of what I had to say Hephie kun! ^_~<3

Edited, Mar 11th 2007 9:01pm by Namfoodle

Edited, Mar 11th 2007 9:05pm by Namfoodle

This homoerotic nigh eloquent flame baked cyber philosophical banter is so turning me on Hephie dear. I will do with your words what only experience can bring to this relationship. I did it all for you.

That said, MMO design is flawed, your arguement that we all still pay for it is part and parcel of Uroboros/Luminaire/Sexgod's arguement. It's design is based on an idea of how to make money. It's designed thinking of fiscal matters, not gameplay. Companies think of ways to keep their players playing. If it ends, if it runs out of content, they're done making money. It's a sad after effect of capitalism. BUt that is another debate entirely.

Blizzard has a huge fanbase they built from Warcraft, Diablo and Starcraft. They sat down one day and said, 'how can we get these idiots to play an MMO they pay for?' I hate Blizzard, they took every aspect of interesting MMO's threw them all into a generic fantasy world and hit go. There are amazing advances in a gameplay interface that is easier to work with, but the game gets boring fast once you hit the high level junk. Then it just becomes a ridil hunt all over again. Only you can spawn Fafhogg whenever you want.

As for Second Life. I enjoyed Second Life. I have a variety of professors and contacts I use and quote for the few papers i've been able to write on the subject of the growing importance of virtual worlds. Second Life is an amazing experiement to bring the Internet into a 3d environment. It's as if they took Neuromancer and tried to create the Matrix in a way that they could only with the technology available. What's spawned is interesting, but most of what is seen through that game is that humanity is @#%^ed up sexually.

Second Life lacks competition. You don't accomplish anything. Second Life is about living in a virtual world, not conquering it. What I want is pretty much akin to what is happening in EVE Online. Something Awful created a super guild and has managed to take over a large portion of the universe. They have such a gigantic player base (~2000) and a SOP that they follow so diligently that it's almost admirable. In fact, despite developers interfereing directly with their advance through creating end game items at will for opposing forces, SA would have taken over EVEOnline quite a while ago. They already have a powerful stance on a pretty important part of disputed space.

In WoW terms, aka easiest to understand terms, SA has taken over almost half of the disputed territory and in order to go through it or be there you need their permission or you'll die.

SA's Goonfleet is a unique happenstance in virtual reality. They are organized, they don't take any bullsh*t, and they represent a very large forum community from a different part of the net. My obsession and pride for SA aside, it's really interesting to see how they work. Their wiki on what they expect from you is vast and grows constantly.

This drives itself into what i'd like. Imagine Second Life with a strict physics engine, biological simulator, and an almost unlimited free will. You could build a house, you could kill your wife, you could ********** if you like. Or, you could do something more complicated. You could field an Army, you could build a fort with a standing defense force, you could create a country. A fantasy world, simplistic in scope like Conan, would be the ideal place for this. Put in place a conquerable NPC force and it'll force PC groups to unite and field an Army to take them out. Make the armies grow, put in a field combat section for officers, put in a hierarchy of power based on rank, and you might just have an engine for wars. MMO's lack this. Most MMO's are sterile.

Recently Star Wars Galaxies had a war on a moon in their world. You could actually take part in battles. It was glorious...but the outcome was predetermined. They left it up to the game, not the players. Sure players might take over the world, sure they might grow too powerful for other players to take out, but they always falter and you have a living breathing history. When I see Conan and what it'd like to do, I really want to see it do that, but far more. My only other hope lies in government funded MMO's from Korea.

I hope this makes sense. My sociology and comm studies mind tends to think in a far more grand scope than i would like it to. But, i'm coming off a variety of classes dealing with grand theory so you can't blame me! I think I still have the AUrora Charter somewhere. I should go find it.

I'll think of you Hephfeisty. ^_~<3 MEW MEW MEWWWWW


EDIT: I forgot about the so-called world full of idiots comment. Yes, most people are idiots, this is what elevates the few that aren't into positions to take advantage of them. The charismatic leader who uses his or her intelligence will get the idiots behind them quickly. In MMO terms, this is no different. It is a mirror of the world we live in, the system from which most of us place (that being society). My job right now is asking people to do something for their department of transportation. Most people scream at us, yell at us, yet we have an effect on them, a long lasting effect (10 years of road construction are planned from our data) but people don't care. I don't think that the idiot factor matters as much in the real world as the virtual one, but it's effect is still minimal.

Edited, Mar 12th 2007 2:00am by Namfoodle

Heph, Nam..you guys made this thread full of freakin win. I love you both. I've always loved Heph because, well, he's just freakin sexy. Nam is less sexy.


Keep up the good work.

Someone should put a STFU pill in his early morning / late night coffee. He ends up only typing to himself.

According to my theroies studied in university (lawl im a geologist), one who is narcissistic, bipolar, and schitzo, types to themselves a lot and about their own ******** that no one gives a flying crap about. After stating their point to no one but themselves they will eventually emo out and start flaming every poster that posts after them...they will even post after they have already made a post and prolly are dumb enough to eventually flame themselves.

Go troll the WoW forums now Nam, or whatever game deems your exellence, you are nobody and will continue to be nobody. Now enjoy your call center cold calling for the DOT. Maybe when you finally have your impending mental breakdown you can go back to FF from the begging and be level 75 in 1 week! W00T.

*waits for Namfoodle to post a thesis on the dangers of eating glue and how he is better than you because he calls it glue and not paste*

Edited, Mar 12th 2007 2:56pm by MoonpieJen

Your university's "theroies" are bankrupt. What percentage of a producer's work do you think you actually see? For every novel an author has published, for every painting a great artist exhibits, you can bet there is ten times that amount of work that said author/artist wouldn't show his closest friend. This is how it works. I write a lot because I'm a writer and a critical thinker. Namfoodle writes a lot because of the nature of his study and his interest in interpersonal communication. The only reason I posted here was to defend Fuukochan, the only reason Namfoodle posted here was to intentionally try to stir up trouble for old times' sake (at my encouragement). That a real discussion erupted from it is an accident, but regardless, a real discussion is in progress, and you are late to the flaming party. Your flames are weaksauce anyway, you don't know one thing about Namfoodle's life, what he's been through, or what shaped what he is now. E for effort I guess.



Proven more all the time. I used to joke that 4 out of 5 people are idiots, but I think it's really closer to 9 out of 10. But a quick, minor little detail: I don't have more than a high school education, and I spent most of high school skipping anyway (I was one of "those kids"). Now I write for a living, so. It takes all kinds, there is no one path to intelligence. I'm glad Qinny was here to provide a current example.

I like where you guys are going, I might have more comments later.

-Lumibeard

What he means Gamion is that it can only begin and end where he says it does.

Get your own thread Namfoodle - I more enjoyed being flamed by idiotic two year olds then reading your "I rock cuz I played the game from day one and did things first with my almighty LS. You didn't so you suck" banter. At least Heph doesn't try to come off with that elitist prick attitude. Yeah... I said it. You are the type of person that made me hate this game. You may have been a great guy in game and I didn't know you but your bullsh*t being spewed here makes me sick. They may be intelligent thoughts but they aren't valid being as you didn't stick around long enough in FFXI to have a judgment on the newer and "less qualified" players.

Edited, Mar 13th 2007 11:13am by MoonpieJen

AND MY POSTS GAIN NOTORIETY!!! WHOOOOO MY MIND PREDICTION POWERS ARE AMAZING!

You know that whatever you do you will never b as good as us looser. You guys try to merge with 3 freaking LS`s and we still beat you .To prove that log on and see UNREAL members still there Camping all kings and claiming them and you losers are playing WOW with the rest of 10 years old kids from all over the world .so who is the winner and who is the losers here. by the way we have UNREAL @ WOW too PVP server only to keep Riffraff like Qinnydar and low live turds like him away from PVP servers

Edited, Mar 15th 2007 8:57am by Bismarkan