i've been 'inspired' by some of the other posts i've read. this issue of discrimination has never really been directly addressed. rather, through the posts about gilsellers, japanese vs americans, and even noob vs non-noobs, it's quite obvious that the underlying theme is blatant prejudice, to the point of discrimination.
a little about my background:
i'm from singapore, a tiny island at the base tip of the malayan peninsula, holding a population of approximately 4.2 million people at any one time. the 4.2 million people consists of four major races, each with their own language, customs. on top of the racial tension, the people dividedly worship 4 orthodox religions, regardless of race.
the leaders of the country realize that discrimination is a serious problem, and have thus made many successful attempts to keep tabs on the multicultural and multiracial situation.
a little about discrimination:
discrimination is treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit (www.dictionary.com). essentially, it involves treatment by association, for example, "one china-chinese player is a gilseller, so all china people are gilsellers."
discrimination stems from prejudice. by prejudice, we mean an adverse judgement or opinion formed beforehand without knowledge or examination of the facts (www.dictionary.com).
much of prejudice comes from not knowing nor understanding the way things are. rather, many get taken in by the rumors, both bad and good, from hearsay and take this for the gospel truth instead of finding out firsthand.
e.g. "gilsellers are all chinese, hence chinese players are all gilsellers." i'm chinese. i'm not a gilseller. i also know a china-chinese friend in game redlvdao/greenlvdao that was forced to create two accounts to play with himself just cos no one else will party with him, accusing him of gilselling.
e.g.2. "playername is a bad player! don't ever party with him!" i take these with a dose of reality, that people who write this are oftentimes angry, and wish to defame the offending individual. taking heed is fine, but i don't think that totally ignoring this offending player is justified till i've at least partied with him myself. i must admit that i've already been sufficiently prejudiced by this forum to some players, and that i'm sorry so many people have mouthed bad things about you to make me think twice.
e.g.3. "japanese are stuck up and would rather party with themselves." the fact is that the japanese probably think the same thing about some americans. i've been in a japanese party, partially cos i've taken pains to learn the language and explore their customs. the experiences were invigorating, to say the least, even though we weren't getting that chain 4 or chain 5. but hey, chain 3 is good enough for me.
now the question: why the ignorance? in the age of the information highway, i find it almost unbelieveable that some people (children withstanding) remain an insular bunch. or is it just those same few black sheep making bad the whole?
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Do people assume that just because folks are Chinese they are automatically gil sellers? I never got that impression. I reall hope people are smarter than that, but then again some of the comments I've seen are just disgusting.
Some of the larger gil selling agencies are based in Singapore anyway. ( Big difference in country)
I also LOVE partying with people from other countries and try my best to speak their language, or at least learn form them.
Personally I just wish people would stop calling things "gay" and "***"
yet GM's don't say a dang thing about that, but I bet if you started using... we'll honestly I can't even bring myself to write the phrases used to slander non-American residents use, as the words are just disgusting.
Knowing that a good portion of the people I party with may or may not be of age, I always try to do my best to set a good example.
Regarding the noob vs non-noob. Thats not prejudice in my eyes, thats pecking order and rites of initiation.
Good Post :-)
Our Vice Presidents daughter is a lesbian and they can't even acknowledge that there's predjusdice in our country... We should take some lessons from Singapore.
Edited, Wed Dec 1 11:33:36 2004 by Mattea
Some of the larger gil selling agencies are based in Singapore anyway. ( Big difference in country)
I also LOVE partying with people from other countries and try my best to speak their language, or at least learn form them.
Personally I just wish people would stop calling things "gay" and "***"
yet GM's don't say a dang thing about that, but I bet if you started using... we'll honestly I can't even bring myself to write the phrases used to slander non-American residents use, as the words are just disgusting.
Knowing that a good portion of the people I party with may or may not be of age, I always try to do my best to set a good example.
Regarding the noob vs non-noob. Thats not prejudice in my eyes, thats pecking order and rites of initiation.
Good Post :-)
Quote:
the leaders of the country realize that discrimination is a serious problem, and have thus made many successful attempts to keep tabs on the multicultural and multiracial situation.
Our Vice Presidents daughter is a lesbian and they can't even acknowledge that there's predjusdice in our country... We should take some lessons from Singapore.
Edited, Wed Dec 1 11:33:36 2004 by Mattea
No matter how open minded you are as a group, nation etc, you will always get your small minded, bigoted people.
These people are often ignorant and loud mouthed and in a minority, but because of their loud mouths often seem in a greater number than they really are. If you have a 100 such people in a community of tens of thousands but they are the only ones speaking they can seem to be a greater number than they really are and give other people the impression they speak for the community.
It takes some more of the tens of thousands to speak up against the discrimination and bigotry to make people realise how small the bigots are.
It sometimes take courage to speak up against it and I commend Enthuz for doing so.
These people are often ignorant and loud mouthed and in a minority, but because of their loud mouths often seem in a greater number than they really are. If you have a 100 such people in a community of tens of thousands but they are the only ones speaking they can seem to be a greater number than they really are and give other people the impression they speak for the community.
It takes some more of the tens of thousands to speak up against the discrimination and bigotry to make people realise how small the bigots are.
It sometimes take courage to speak up against it and I commend Enthuz for doing so.
Quote:
e.g. "gilsellers are all chinese, hence chinese players are all gilsellers." i'm chinese. i'm not a gilseller. i also know a china-chinese friend in game redlvdao/greenlvdao that was forced to create two accounts to play with himself just cos no one else will party with him, accusing him of gilselling.
If what u say about greenlvdao is true im ok with that; i only b-listed him b/c he friggin killed my chatbox with his tele-spamming ><
Quote:
"playername is a bad player! don't ever party with him!"
never played with him so i cant make any comments.....
Quote:
"japanese are stuck up and would rather party with themselves." the fact is that the japanese probably think the same thing about some americans.
remember not all haps are like this. ive met some cool **** lvling Rdm. ive pt'd with a most-*** pt: Nin, Thf, Sam, Brd, Rdm, Blm. we got to C6 {/hurray}. ive even met some nice *** Bards doing BCNM40's. like enthuz is sayin, not all ppl are like the others of the same group.
I'd actually like to ask "where are all the flips in this game?" - i only kno about 4-5 flips that play on this server...
i think you have it the other way around, most people tend not to think all chinese are gil sellers, but that all Gil Sellers are chinese, although not all of them are, a significant majority are. i think i read somewhere that IGE is a chinese based company and therefore SE, being in japan would have a hard time being able to press charges against them. similar to extradition, but thanks to business its gotten worse. you can't be racist in this game, you'll just frustrate yourself, just get along or at least tolerate other players
Banigaru you hit it on the head.... ie all gil sellers are chinese ergo chinese players are gil sellers.
This is totally a defamation of characters and totally false.
(Again, some of the big sellers are from Singapore)
I hated those SAT questions. If all brown haired people have blue eyes and some blond haired people have brown eyese do all blue eyed people have brown hair?
Question... regarding calling people from Japanese "****"
Is that acceptable in today's society?
I could consider that to be on my list of names not to call Japanese folks.
Margaret Cho did a routine on this, and as much as I'd like to type it out here I can only say that she gets erked being called Oriental... as a rug or piece of furniture.
This is totally a defamation of characters and totally false.
(Again, some of the big sellers are from Singapore)
I hated those SAT questions. If all brown haired people have blue eyes and some blond haired people have brown eyese do all blue eyed people have brown hair?
Question... regarding calling people from Japanese "****"
Is that acceptable in today's society?
I could consider that to be on my list of names not to call Japanese folks.
Margaret Cho did a routine on this, and as much as I'd like to type it out here I can only say that she gets erked being called Oriental... as a rug or piece of furniture.
LOL sorry about sayin "****" but what u said quoting Margaret Cho is true.. I'm filipino but in hawaii its just "flip".. on the mainland id b called asian or oriental... And noone wants to b called a friggin rug XD
I wasn't calling you out on that one.. I just wanted to know if it was kosher or not to say that? (please I'm still hung up on how to refer to "people of color" when I'm color blind)
I have no clue how to point people out in that manner... You can't say black you cant say brown you cant say african american.
Politically correct gone over board!
I love Margaret Cho... her skit started out with being called Chino... I had a teacher jokingly refer to an italian kid in my sophmore class as a diego wop. I guess it wasn't a good idea to ask my mother (an Italian) what those terms meant.... Having been called the same thing in college and discriminated heavily because she was an italian (Who discriminates italians now a days?? but from what she said, back then it was BAD to be italian) but anyway she showed up at school the next day and gave him a good toungelashing.
Anywhoo back to lunch.
Ciao
Mattea
I have no clue how to point people out in that manner... You can't say black you cant say brown you cant say african american.
Politically correct gone over board!
I love Margaret Cho... her skit started out with being called Chino... I had a teacher jokingly refer to an italian kid in my sophmore class as a diego wop. I guess it wasn't a good idea to ask my mother (an Italian) what those terms meant.... Having been called the same thing in college and discriminated heavily because she was an italian (Who discriminates italians now a days?? but from what she said, back then it was BAD to be italian) but anyway she showed up at school the next day and gave him a good toungelashing.
Anywhoo back to lunch.
Ciao
Mattea
ThePrettyGoodRDMStyrker wrote:
LOL sorry about sayin "****" but what u said quoting Margaret Cho is true.. I'm filipino but in hawaii its just "flip".. on the mainland id b called asian or oriental... And noone wants to b called a friggin rug XD
My wife is Filpino and I live in the south. Sometimes in a grocery store line I get looks even in the modern day of 2004. The point is you dont know the person behind the controler. My wife plays ffxi some while she may be playing with kids that have no idea what race she is it seems pple dont care about (well most people) a persons RL race. Saying that all gil sellers are chinese is not accurate either. Many gil sellers are from NA as well. This is why I say let SE handle all the problems with bots/gilsellers. You dont know for sure who is behind the controler, maybe they are just anon farming or fishing and dont want to talk. Maybe they are hispanic and dont know english. There is NO WAY for you to really know. Just the same there is no way for that old woman that gives me and my wife a dirty look because she is filipino that my wife has a marketing degree, ran the marketing division for FedEx ranking and answering to her boss who was the CEO and owner of the company there. Here in the USA she holds a similar job with similar importance of position and makes more money in 1 year than that older woman has in her 401k for her retirement. You dont know who you are dealing with or who your talking to. Generalizations can become very dangerous for people on both sides of the fence. It does take getting to know people and then make judgment based on the person NOT the race or location.
Banigaru wrote:
i think you have it the other way around, most people tend not to think all chinese are gil sellers, but that all Gil Sellers are chinese, although not all of them are, a significant majority are. i think i read somewhere that IGE is a chinese based company and therefore SE, being in japan would have a hard time being able to press charges against them. similar to extradition, but thanks to business its gotten worse. you can't be racist in this game, you'll just frustrate yourself, just get along or at least tolerate other players
problem is, i started speaking in pseudo-chinese in la theine just barely a week ago with redlvdao in /say and along comes someone who said in /say "oh look, gil-seller conversation."
now, whether this is in jest or not, i'm not sure. it didn't bother me since i wasn't a gilseller, and i know redlvdao isn't. but this little thing shows either one of two things:
1) the person meant it, which reinforces what i've been saying about the hasty generalizations.
2) the person didn't mean it, but the fact that a group of players having a perfectly fine conversation in a different language turning into the butt-end of a joke is semi-telling where this is headed.
note: i admit i'm also human with prejudices of my own, in game or out of. but i'm not saying that i've let it frustrate me in anyway. this message is only to bring to light something that others might not have seen: the fact that discrimination is oftentimes caused by the lack of understanding and is unwarranted. don't worry, i get along fine with any race in game. ^^
Mattea wrote:
Do people assume that just because folks are Chinese they are automatically gil sellers? I never got that impression. I reall hope people are smarter than that, but then again some of the comments I've seen are just disgusting.
Some of the larger gil selling agencies are based in Singapore anyway. ( Big difference in country)
Some of the larger gil selling agencies are based in Singapore anyway. ( Big difference in country)
wow, they are based in singapore? it figures. ><
heh, not meaning to country-bash my own country, but those from singapore would understand my feeling when we start talking about the typical "ugly singaporean." and the fact that singapore's geographical and economic position in the global market only makes it easier for these gil-selling agencies to start up.
hehe, next i can expect a "OH NO! HE'S SINGAPOREAN! MUST BE A GILSELLER!" coming soon. =p
Well Javolin, i dont like you because you are a Red Mage. Im a bard. its the same kind of thing in every day society. People with negative feelings towards others because of competition. However...the one thing they misunderstand is that when it comes to race there is no competition, you dont win the race of life for being white or black, although you might win it for being purple.
As for the short hand of "Japanese people" (or person) It is easier to say NA or JP instead of typing it all out, and come on we are all lazy. some people say ***, Hicks in the south call we northeners Yankees (off topic) but the point is that, just because a term can be conisdered derrogetory (sp?) doesnt always mean its being used in that way. I've seen threads where one person used *** to refer to JP players and the next 10 pages were about people flaming him for being a racist, i mean it gets rediculous after a while.
So can't we all just get along and accept my cute adorable taru as teh ruler of all and of course equal (just more equal) of all Vana'diel, after all I am a princess, and Queen Bani has a ring. :P
As for the short hand of "Japanese people" (or person) It is easier to say NA or JP instead of typing it all out, and come on we are all lazy. some people say ***, Hicks in the south call we northeners Yankees (off topic) but the point is that, just because a term can be conisdered derrogetory (sp?) doesnt always mean its being used in that way. I've seen threads where one person used *** to refer to JP players and the next 10 pages were about people flaming him for being a racist, i mean it gets rediculous after a while.
So can't we all just get along and accept my cute adorable taru as teh ruler of all and of course equal (just more equal) of all Vana'diel, after all I am a princess, and Queen Bani has a ring. :P
Quote:
now the question: why the ignorance? in the age of the information highway, i find it almost unbelieveable that some people (children withstanding) remain an insular bunch. or is it just those same few black sheep making bad the whole?
I believe the answer at least from (this) American's perspective is that the "information super highway" wasn't around for my parents, nor was it around during my formative years. While in Singapore you have 4.2 million people of differing ethnic, religious backgrounds squished together in a very small area you are most certainly a little more "worldly" than most people. There are sections of this country where exposure to that kind of ethnic variance will only come from T.V.
I do not believe the situation to be as bad as you make it seem. This board and it's consistent posts about n00bs and bad players or gil sellers is really just a very, very minor portion of Cerberus' population and the opinions expressed here certainly shouldn't be construed as what the rest of server thinks or believes.
Yes Jacky, id say only a small fraction of the players post on this forum. the majority of high lvl players are either on Killing Ifrit or FFXIONLINE chat. But i like it here. the threads tend to me much more intellege (sometimes) and people aren't starting drama, although drama is fun. (KI boards used to have the best drama till the admins closed the threads). Your point about singaporian people makes sense I guess. the US is a very diverse place as well, unless you live in a rural or suburban community which is where probably 40-60% of the population lives. Only major cities tend to places of extreme ethnic diversity. But i'm sure there are areas of singapore that are rural as well. Singapore is roughly larger than the state of New York i would guess, and although geography might be a factor consider that 70+% of the population of the State lives in a 30 mile area (NYC) and the rest isn't as crowded
Banigaru wrote:
Well Javolin, i dont like you because you are a Red Mage. Im a bard. its the same kind of thing in every day society. People with negative feelings towards others because of competition. However...the one thing they misunderstand is that when it comes to race there is no competition, you dont win the race of life for being white or black, although you might win it for being purple.
As for the short hand of "Japanese people" (or person) It is easier to say NA or JP instead of typing it all out, and come on we are all lazy. some people say ***, Hicks in the south call we northeners Yankees (off topic) but the point is that, just because a term can be conisdered derrogetory (sp?) doesnt always mean its being used in that way. I've seen threads where one person used *** to refer to JP players and the next 10 pages were about people flaming him for being a racist, i mean it gets rediculous after a while.
So can't we all just get along and accept my cute adorable taru as teh ruler of all and of course equal (just more equal) of all Vana'diel, after all I am a princess, and Queen Bani has a ring. :P
As for the short hand of "Japanese people" (or person) It is easier to say NA or JP instead of typing it all out, and come on we are all lazy. some people say ***, Hicks in the south call we northeners Yankees (off topic) but the point is that, just because a term can be conisdered derrogetory (sp?) doesnt always mean its being used in that way. I've seen threads where one person used *** to refer to JP players and the next 10 pages were about people flaming him for being a racist, i mean it gets rediculous after a while.
So can't we all just get along and accept my cute adorable taru as teh ruler of all and of course equal (just more equal) of all Vana'diel, after all I am a princess, and Queen Bani has a ring. :P
OH YES I MUST bow to the Taru greatness! Tarus are too cute to ignore! Back on topic though yes we all shortcut our terminology to NA JP and such which I have no problem with. I believe though when the intent is wrong then the terminology with the intent = evil. I agree with you completely.
<sarcasm>Sorry Enthuz, but we're American, and we don't have to understand anything about your culture. We're the best, so why bother learning about anything else?</sarcasm>
My feeling is that we are just too damn insular (and unilateralist, but that's another issue). Hell, the most generous estimates say that at most only 20% of us have passports. I know that I didn't learn about other cultures as a child, and I doubt much has changed in the school systems of rural Maryland. I talked to different people. I travel every chance I can get. I try to see other people's point of view. And the kickass thing is that I'm still learning about other people in this world.
Enthuz, I commend the Singapore government for trying to end discrimination -- it is a noble effort (especially compared with the US trying to write it into our Constitution).
I guess I'm completely rambling, but to sum this up: give us a chance (and some time). There is a difference between ignorant and stupid. Ignorant means that you can learn.
My feeling is that we are just too damn insular (and unilateralist, but that's another issue). Hell, the most generous estimates say that at most only 20% of us have passports. I know that I didn't learn about other cultures as a child, and I doubt much has changed in the school systems of rural Maryland. I talked to different people. I travel every chance I can get. I try to see other people's point of view. And the kickass thing is that I'm still learning about other people in this world.
Enthuz, I commend the Singapore government for trying to end discrimination -- it is a noble effort (especially compared with the US trying to write it into our Constitution).
I guess I'm completely rambling, but to sum this up: give us a chance (and some time). There is a difference between ignorant and stupid. Ignorant means that you can learn.
Quote:
My feeling is that we are just too damn insular (and unilateralist, but that's another issue). Hell, the most generous estimates say that at most only 20% of us have passports. I know that I didn't learn about other cultures as a child, and I doubt much has changed in the school systems of rural Maryland. I talked to different people. I travel every chance I can get. I try to see other people's point of view. And the kickass thing is that I'm still learning about other people in this world.
I will truely agree with you. I am an American citizen that is not really American (raised and educated in a "foreign" country). I am alarmed how misinformed certain Americans about foreign affairs and culture.
One thing I will have to say that this is not really an American problem. You can see that in other countries that are geographically and population extensive (say 100 million people +). When you have such a large country, there is less incentive to learn about foreign affairs. There is enough things internally already, and we are good and powerful enough, so why should we care about that eh... that small country over there when we make no money there.
A lot of that has something to do with ego and nationalism. I traveled in China and Japan fairly extensively, and you see such problems there too.
Plagrism starts here:
FFXI 12 bucks per month
Flying 300 bucks per flight
Learning foreign culture and traveling priceless
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel
Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand
A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel
Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand
A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
hmm... i should go give KI a try then, from what banigaru says. =) oh, and i should kneel to the Taru Greatness of Vanadi'el too!
i didn't realize the posting community on alla is small. i remember that my first online referral for information was to alla though. and seeing many names pop up on alla reinforced my belief that alla is indeed well-read. maybe not the forums, eh?
back on topic:
derogatory terms--in itself, i don't think the term usage of JP and Yankees is wrong. correctly pointed out, it depends on the context. however, in an MMORPG, communication is through a words-on-screen interface, where the absence of tone may cause some serious misunderstanding. i've had a load of such experiences being an avid online chatter, and i've come to realize me typing "Idiot!" in a chat window doesn't always come across as a jest to the receipient. just be careful i suppose.
ignorance--granted that i've had the benefit of a multi-cultural upbringing, i am still pretty ignorant to many things in the world. hopefully there'll come a time when people will not discriminate because of ignorance, because as the saying goes: "ignorance is not an excuse."
disclaimer--there are two other main reasons why i even started this thread:
1) gives people who acknowledge that discrimination due to ignorance is a RL problem and shouldn't be ignored a place to add their thoughts to reinforce the idea.
2) gives people who didn't know that discrimination is happening in a game environment a chance to realize that something is afoot, and perhaps add to our discussion why it's so.
of course, although i've not seen much of it yet, i do anticipate someone to come in and write that all we're saying is crap; that everyone is a noob and all chinese are gilsellers. :) they also then have a platform to state why they view so, and why nothing we have posted mitigates their original prejudice.
discrimination is something combated by discussion and understanding. no one's wrong in what they believe, nor can we tell anyone what to believe (and btw bani, i want to see a really good brd in action soon. rdms kinda have the limelight at the moment. ><). it's up to them to change what to believe if they want to. no?
i didn't realize the posting community on alla is small. i remember that my first online referral for information was to alla though. and seeing many names pop up on alla reinforced my belief that alla is indeed well-read. maybe not the forums, eh?
back on topic:
derogatory terms--in itself, i don't think the term usage of JP and Yankees is wrong. correctly pointed out, it depends on the context. however, in an MMORPG, communication is through a words-on-screen interface, where the absence of tone may cause some serious misunderstanding. i've had a load of such experiences being an avid online chatter, and i've come to realize me typing "Idiot!" in a chat window doesn't always come across as a jest to the receipient. just be careful i suppose.
ignorance--granted that i've had the benefit of a multi-cultural upbringing, i am still pretty ignorant to many things in the world. hopefully there'll come a time when people will not discriminate because of ignorance, because as the saying goes: "ignorance is not an excuse."
disclaimer--there are two other main reasons why i even started this thread:
1) gives people who acknowledge that discrimination due to ignorance is a RL problem and shouldn't be ignored a place to add their thoughts to reinforce the idea.
2) gives people who didn't know that discrimination is happening in a game environment a chance to realize that something is afoot, and perhaps add to our discussion why it's so.
of course, although i've not seen much of it yet, i do anticipate someone to come in and write that all we're saying is crap; that everyone is a noob and all chinese are gilsellers. :) they also then have a platform to state why they view so, and why nothing we have posted mitigates their original prejudice.
discrimination is something combated by discussion and understanding. no one's wrong in what they believe, nor can we tell anyone what to believe (and btw bani, i want to see a really good brd in action soon. rdms kinda have the limelight at the moment. ><). it's up to them to change what to believe if they want to. no?
[quote=Enthuz](and btw bani, i want to see a really good brd in action soon. rdms kinda have the limelight at the moment. ><). quote]
Hey hey dont pick on us Rdm's ; ; /em crying LOL j/king. Hey Im a bst now what can I say bye bye Rdm.
Hey hey dont pick on us Rdm's ; ; /em crying LOL j/king. Hey Im a bst now what can I say bye bye Rdm.
Quote:
of course, although i've not seen much of it yet, i do anticipate someone to come in and write that all we're saying is crap; that everyone is a noob and all chinese are gilsellers. :) they also then have a platform to state why they view so, and why nothing we have posted mitigates their original prejudice.
I am glad our server forum is very civil relatively. So conversation like this can be carried out properly.
Quote:
discrimination is something combated by discussion and understanding.
In the ideal world, that is the way of discrimination is resolved. In RL, a lot of disrimination is actually incited for selfish reason (i.e. the greed of political power and influence). And people take advantages of other's ignorance and manipulate such igorance to their interest.
I hate to say that a good deal of people in RL are not that civil and are easily mainpulated to believe in certain improper values.
Quote:
and btw bani, i want to see a really good brd in action soon. rdms kinda have the limelight at the moment. ><).
(Bard) = (Impossible to Gauge)
It is a difficult job to play well. But if you can play it well, you will be the party God. /wink Banigaru, /smile <me>
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel
Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand
A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel
Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand
A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Oc course, all Chinese aren't gilsellers...they're all Kung Fu masters who walk on water and dance on treetops!
Seriously, though, scchan has it right. In a perfect world, we could discuss things and come to an understanding of each other's positions on issues such as this, if not agreement. Unfortunately, too often, the people filled with the most hate aren't open to discussion. In personal experience, when I tried to start a dialogue with some of the elder homophobes in my family as to why they were so threatened by same sex marriage, they're anger turned on me rather than trying to explain their viewpoint. It's difficult to discuss something when the other parties arguments lie in vulgarities.
Seriously, though, scchan has it right. In a perfect world, we could discuss things and come to an understanding of each other's positions on issues such as this, if not agreement. Unfortunately, too often, the people filled with the most hate aren't open to discussion. In personal experience, when I tried to start a dialogue with some of the elder homophobes in my family as to why they were so threatened by same sex marriage, they're anger turned on me rather than trying to explain their viewpoint. It's difficult to discuss something when the other parties arguments lie in vulgarities.
Merithion wrote:
Oc course, all Chinese aren't gilsellers...they're all Kung Fu masters who walk on water and dance on treetops!
Seriously, though, scchan has it right. In a perfect world, we could discuss things and come to an understanding of each other's positions on issues such as this, if not agreement. Unfortunately, too often, the people filled with the most hate aren't open to discussion. In personal experience, when I tried to start a dialogue with some of the elder homophobes in my family as to why they were so threatened by same sex marriage, they're anger turned on me rather than trying to explain their viewpoint. It's difficult to discuss something when the other parties arguments lie in vulgarities.
Seriously, though, scchan has it right. In a perfect world, we could discuss things and come to an understanding of each other's positions on issues such as this, if not agreement. Unfortunately, too often, the people filled with the most hate aren't open to discussion. In personal experience, when I tried to start a dialogue with some of the elder homophobes in my family as to why they were so threatened by same sex marriage, they're anger turned on me rather than trying to explain their viewpoint. It's difficult to discuss something when the other parties arguments lie in vulgarities.
LOL merithion, i wish i were a kung fu master. >< yea, that's one of the major sources of prejudice--media stereotype. i had a friend who once complained about that to me after watching "legally blonde" on the bigscreen. i guess this would fall under "misinformation" maybe?
to address the more important issue though:
i do not believe that just cause that people do not accept mens that the statement not be made. "they ain't going to care, so why bother?" ironically, that's how i've been brought up. my mom used to school me into accepting stuff as it is, and where there might be a chance that something is wrong, to consider if what i say might make an impact. if it doesn't make the desired impact, than don't bother. funny how i've lived that life for awhile.
ever since i started working though, i've come to realize more and more how important it is to just voice an opinion. it's not about manhandling people to see the point. it's just simply stating what i feel about a situation. (too much opinion is bad too, note.)
in the case of a forum, there is no better place to put this message. people who bother to read usually read with an open mind (or as much as i can hope). those who read and wish to make a difference will. those who read and don't wish to help won't.
maybe i'm just too utopian in my assessment of the impact, but hey i've already made my statement. i'd like to thank those who've contributed to this in one way or another, and possibly pass on any knowledge to others that you interact with.
short of being cliche, "be part of the solution, not the problem."
Ok I first want to say how refreshing it is to see intellectual conversation. :-D I can't help but feel I had something to do with spurring this post, however, Enthuz. Maybe you had posted this prior to our excursion to Ordelle's; who knows. Anywho, I don't have much to add because a lot of my points have been made by previous posters, however, I would like to add some personal information.
I don't think I've ever necessarily been close-minded to other cultures/races, but I think a couple things have really opened my eyes to how wonderful other cultures are, and how much they can have to offer.
I think the first real eye opener was when I started attending the University of Cincinnati. I got to experience discremination first hand here because at the time I attended, whites were almost a minority at this school. I guess I never really saw it as white and black, but too many do.
It was odd to me because I made some friends in the first week of many different races/cultures, however, there were MANY that had a problem with me just because I was white. This just shocked me because these individuals hadn't even bothered to get to know me. I honestly had no concept of racism/prejudice prior to this.
After my time at UC, I sat back and looked at how I subconsciously made pre-judgements on anyone that was "different" than I and I think that was a HUGE eye opener for me. Since then, I've enjoyed having friends of all cultures and races and my life is much richer for it. How many born Americans can say they have a friend with 16 letters in his first name. :-b
My second awakening came with Chi-Kung/Kung-Fu. This art has done so much for me mentally, spiritually, and physically that I can't begin to describe. Honestly, it disgusts me to see the main stream, marketed version of the knowledge of "Ancients". (Some will know that term. LoL) When I started to understand Chi and it's relationship to everything around me, my mind opened up and I started to experience things once believed to be impossible. This led me to dig further into the Chinese culture and teachings only to find a wealth of what I call "natural knowledge".
I think if everyone took the time to do a bit of research on other cultures (I personally think American schools need to do a better job of this) a lot of the "ignorance" would start to disipate. I think we could learn at least one positive thing from every culture, regardless of the stereotype they've been given.
Well, sorry for the real long post but it's my first one in awhile. :-b (Guess I had to get it out of my system. LoL)
I don't think I've ever necessarily been close-minded to other cultures/races, but I think a couple things have really opened my eyes to how wonderful other cultures are, and how much they can have to offer.
I think the first real eye opener was when I started attending the University of Cincinnati. I got to experience discremination first hand here because at the time I attended, whites were almost a minority at this school. I guess I never really saw it as white and black, but too many do.
It was odd to me because I made some friends in the first week of many different races/cultures, however, there were MANY that had a problem with me just because I was white. This just shocked me because these individuals hadn't even bothered to get to know me. I honestly had no concept of racism/prejudice prior to this.
After my time at UC, I sat back and looked at how I subconsciously made pre-judgements on anyone that was "different" than I and I think that was a HUGE eye opener for me. Since then, I've enjoyed having friends of all cultures and races and my life is much richer for it. How many born Americans can say they have a friend with 16 letters in his first name. :-b
My second awakening came with Chi-Kung/Kung-Fu. This art has done so much for me mentally, spiritually, and physically that I can't begin to describe. Honestly, it disgusts me to see the main stream, marketed version of the knowledge of "Ancients". (Some will know that term. LoL) When I started to understand Chi and it's relationship to everything around me, my mind opened up and I started to experience things once believed to be impossible. This led me to dig further into the Chinese culture and teachings only to find a wealth of what I call "natural knowledge".
I think if everyone took the time to do a bit of research on other cultures (I personally think American schools need to do a better job of this) a lot of the "ignorance" would start to disipate. I think we could learn at least one positive thing from every culture, regardless of the stereotype they've been given.
Well, sorry for the real long post but it's my first one in awhile. :-b (Guess I had to get it out of my system. LoL)
Dave Chappelle said:
kinda true to have this philosophy if ur really into comedy, then people tend to take things too seriously and make a big deal outta it. I hope one day that we can all accept eachother for who we are and YET still b able to crack jokes "dave chappelle" style, just b/c its in the intrest of comedy. Comedy is all around us... sometimes it is even the painkillers of life.
Quote:
"I'm not racist, i just like makin fun of other people's cultures."
kinda true to have this philosophy if ur really into comedy, then people tend to take things too seriously and make a big deal outta it. I hope one day that we can all accept eachother for who we are and YET still b able to crack jokes "dave chappelle" style, just b/c its in the intrest of comedy. Comedy is all around us... sometimes it is even the painkillers of life.
Quote:
Laugher is the best Medicine...
ThePrettyGoodRDMStyrker wrote:
Dave Chappelle said:
kinda true to have this philosophy if ur really into comedy, then people tend to take things too seriously and make a big deal outta it. I hope one day that we can all accept eachother for who we are and YET still b able to crack jokes "dave chappelle" style, just b/c its in the intrest of comedy. Comedy is all around us... sometimes it is even the painkillers of life.
Quote:
"I'm not racist, i just like makin fun of other people's cultures."
kinda true to have this philosophy if ur really into comedy, then people tend to take things too seriously and make a big deal outta it. I hope one day that we can all accept eachother for who we are and YET still b able to crack jokes "dave chappelle" style, just b/c its in the intrest of comedy. Comedy is all around us... sometimes it is even the painkillers of life.
Quote:
Laugher is the best Medicine...
all good if you know the dude. a bit unfair if you pull it on a relative stranger no? hard to be comedic if only one side is laughing.
LeetFade wrote:
Ok I first want to say how refreshing it is to see intellectual conversation. :-D I can't help but feel I had something to do with spurring this post, however, Enthuz. Maybe you had posted this prior to our excursion to Ordelle's; who knows. Anywho, I don't have much to add because a lot of my points have been made by previous posters, however, I would like to add some personal information.
well, our little excursion helped a little. so i guess i have to thank you in public now. ^^
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