Howdy all,
Ok, I know we've all seen this topic at one point or another. Your most likely thinking that this will be a "Those darn <insert nationality> players won't play with me!!" post. Welp, it's not^^
This is an "I see this happening and I don't understand why." thread.
There has always been a small section of our community that was unwilling to party with others that were not of their own nationality/language group. This is perfectly understandable (at least to me) at low levels when in-party communication is vital to success as players learn how their jobs work. As levels progress, I see this as being less of an obsticle as players should be becoming conversent in their jobs and it is "reasonable" to assume that a person knows his/her job's place in any particular party makeup. Granted, this is not always the case as some people learn slower then others so there will still be an outside fringe of players with an unwillingness to party outside of their nationality/language group.
Now, that said, I fully realize that some people derive great enjoyment from the in-party chatter that can take place. Great way to meet people and make friends. I personally do not talk alot in party as I type slow and am particularly dull-whitted so my focus is doing my job and trying not to screwup to badly. I tend to leave this sort of thing for my LS and crafting time.
Here is my quandry. I'm now in the 40s (not high lvl but not newb either) and to me the goal (when I have my party flag up) is to make as much exp as possible in the least ammount of time. I assume that others with their party flag up also are looking for the same thing. I go to great lengths to use the translator when sending a /tell invite (ex. {Excuse Me} {I'm Sorry}, {Interest}ed in {Gustav Tunnel} {Party}?). I attempt to be as polite and unobtrusive as possible knowing full well the response I'm most likely to get will be "{No Thanks You} {I don't speak any English}."
Why is it that a certain nationality/language group is still at these levels unwilling to join a party that is different from themselves? Isn't exp gained with (at least moderately) experienced players of other cultures better then sitting in town for hours on end LFP? I do not understand this mentality. I do not understand this nationality/language group discrimination.
Please share your thoughts on why this situation exists and how we can work together to remove (at least partially) this discrimination. I'm simply frustrated.
Thanks for your time and thoughts.
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This has been talked a few times over and over again in the main forums. Some will call this discrimination, some will say a communication issue... But this is my take:
1) It is always more comfortable to play with people that shares same culture and language. Partying is not just about getting a lot of exp, it is also about socialing and talking to others. I met some really good JP and TW friends this way.
Even communication about tacitics and skillchain is not an issue, a lot of people do not want to be like "Duck talking to a Chicken" (Chinese Idiom, but you get the meaning). It is really boring as hell for a JP or TW among a bunch NAs and cannot talk to them. And Asians tend to be reserved and careful in not saying the wrong thing; if they cannot speak English, the fear to speak something wrong is there.
2) Partying culture is different. A lot of JP and TW/HK players do not like people leaving and joining and find replacements in the middle, or power leveling -- that is very common among NA players. I am not saying leave-join or pl is bad (I have my own opinions, but that is seperate issue), it is just not as popular among certain players.
3) As a personal opionion (I know some will strongly disagree) that there are more rude and unconsiderate players among NA. It is more common to see a NA (imo) to say "This is my ****ing game, I play the way it is." You rarely see JPs shouting Mithra Fun Hole or Casinos type of bs or people randomly examine people who do not know (it is considered rude among JPs).
People always claim you do not know if the foreign players are cursing at us all the time with a language a lot of us do not know. I can tell you, most of them do not.
Even you are a good and nice player, but the bad impression is there. This is less of an issue at higher levels when high level people know what is considered bad.
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Sometimes it is discrimination (there are asses non-NA players too), sometimes it is language and cultural barrier... Chances are the latter is reason. The auto-translator is bad, I use Romanji to talk to Japanese players, not English nor auto-translator.
Also help yourself understand what is considered bad to foreign players. If someone does not like to be examined, then do not examine. If someone does not like to hear Mithra Fun Hole, then do not say that. Being the check function exists or the right to say sex jokes openly, it does not mean you should. I myself only examine people who I know.
I have met a lot of very good and nice JP and TW/HK players -- but I speak their tounge (I am a native Chinese who traveled in Japan a few times). In a matter of fact, I am in a TW/HK LS. Most do not hate us, it just they also want to have fun. And it is their right in how to have fun the way they want.
It is better for both side to step back one step. Instead of pointing fingers, a compromise is much better.
Edited, Wed Feb 9 17:46:24 2005 by scchan
1) It is always more comfortable to play with people that shares same culture and language. Partying is not just about getting a lot of exp, it is also about socialing and talking to others. I met some really good JP and TW friends this way.
Even communication about tacitics and skillchain is not an issue, a lot of people do not want to be like "Duck talking to a Chicken" (Chinese Idiom, but you get the meaning). It is really boring as hell for a JP or TW among a bunch NAs and cannot talk to them. And Asians tend to be reserved and careful in not saying the wrong thing; if they cannot speak English, the fear to speak something wrong is there.
2) Partying culture is different. A lot of JP and TW/HK players do not like people leaving and joining and find replacements in the middle, or power leveling -- that is very common among NA players. I am not saying leave-join or pl is bad (I have my own opinions, but that is seperate issue), it is just not as popular among certain players.
3) As a personal opionion (I know some will strongly disagree) that there are more rude and unconsiderate players among NA. It is more common to see a NA (imo) to say "This is my ****ing game, I play the way it is." You rarely see JPs shouting Mithra Fun Hole or Casinos type of bs or people randomly examine people who do not know (it is considered rude among JPs).
People always claim you do not know if the foreign players are cursing at us all the time with a language a lot of us do not know. I can tell you, most of them do not.
Even you are a good and nice player, but the bad impression is there. This is less of an issue at higher levels when high level people know what is considered bad.
--------------
Sometimes it is discrimination (there are asses non-NA players too), sometimes it is language and cultural barrier... Chances are the latter is reason. The auto-translator is bad, I use Romanji to talk to Japanese players, not English nor auto-translator.
Also help yourself understand what is considered bad to foreign players. If someone does not like to be examined, then do not examine. If someone does not like to hear Mithra Fun Hole, then do not say that. Being the check function exists or the right to say sex jokes openly, it does not mean you should. I myself only examine people who I know.
I have met a lot of very good and nice JP and TW/HK players -- but I speak their tounge (I am a native Chinese who traveled in Japan a few times). In a matter of fact, I am in a TW/HK LS. Most do not hate us, it just they also want to have fun. And it is their right in how to have fun the way they want.
It is better for both side to step back one step. Instead of pointing fingers, a compromise is much better.
Edited, Wed Feb 9 17:46:24 2005 by scchan
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel
Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand
A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel
Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand
A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Prytan,
I fully understand your frustration in this. The game had an intent of trying to create a community and yet we create cultural barriers with one another.
I too would like to hear other's opinions on what we can do about it.
Scchan,
I don't think the OP was pointing fingers on this. I think he's intent was sincere. If however, you were meaning to suggest that in general we need to stop pointing fingers then I apologize.
As to the subject itself, I've heard many reasons from other nationalities as to why they prefer to stay exclusively within their ethnic group for PT's. These reasons range from <insert nationalityhere> are rude, <insertnationalityhere> are all gil sellers, <INH> are bad players, <INH> gain slow exp, <INH> are always begging for something. All of the above are in truth bad reasons to exclude anyone. As all it really just boils down to prejudice and there really is no way to dodge that one.
Of course not being comfortable on a linguistic level is something all together different. However, I've seldom noticed this to be an issue in an exp party. It certainly cuts down on the social aspect while grinding, however, even in same language parties people tend to keep conversation to the job at hand. So like the OP I find it hard to believe that is the biggest issue.
After all I've partied with people from Japan, China, Germany, France, Portugal and the US. Obviously I don't speak all these languages yet the language barrier was seldom an issue.
Judging someone to be rude based soley on ethnicity is the epitomy of arrogance. I've seen rediculous displays of inconsiderate behavior from ALL nationalities in this game. NA's that feel it necessary to /shout insults. I also know a chinese player who left our server because JP players constantly accused her of being a gil seller.
Know what else I've seen? I've seen NA players drop everything to help a low level player complete a quest. I've seen NA players give thousands of gil to help a someone get an important scroll. I've known a JP player who sat with me through my entire chocobo license quest just so I wouldn't get bored. I've seen JP players display unending patience in helping new players perform well in a party.
The fact is that all cultures have their bad traits and members. All cultures also have wonderful traits and good members. It is time for us to call a Duck a Duck. The excuses for wanting to party exclusively in one's own ethnic group is exactly that, excuses. It's all stereotyping and all of us (regardless of ethnicity) need to recognize that and move on.
In a way the relationships in this game are much like real world relationships. Most don't want to move out of their comfortable little boxes. We all need to let our skins toughen up, and start playing with each other as equals.
This game offers all of us as individuals of many nations to interact with each other and that is a wonderful thing. If we don't however, the oppurtunity will pass us by.
I fully understand your frustration in this. The game had an intent of trying to create a community and yet we create cultural barriers with one another.
I too would like to hear other's opinions on what we can do about it.
Scchan,
I don't think the OP was pointing fingers on this. I think he's intent was sincere. If however, you were meaning to suggest that in general we need to stop pointing fingers then I apologize.
As to the subject itself, I've heard many reasons from other nationalities as to why they prefer to stay exclusively within their ethnic group for PT's. These reasons range from <insert nationalityhere> are rude, <insertnationalityhere> are all gil sellers, <INH> are bad players, <INH> gain slow exp, <INH> are always begging for something. All of the above are in truth bad reasons to exclude anyone. As all it really just boils down to prejudice and there really is no way to dodge that one.
Of course not being comfortable on a linguistic level is something all together different. However, I've seldom noticed this to be an issue in an exp party. It certainly cuts down on the social aspect while grinding, however, even in same language parties people tend to keep conversation to the job at hand. So like the OP I find it hard to believe that is the biggest issue.
After all I've partied with people from Japan, China, Germany, France, Portugal and the US. Obviously I don't speak all these languages yet the language barrier was seldom an issue.
Judging someone to be rude based soley on ethnicity is the epitomy of arrogance. I've seen rediculous displays of inconsiderate behavior from ALL nationalities in this game. NA's that feel it necessary to /shout insults. I also know a chinese player who left our server because JP players constantly accused her of being a gil seller.
Know what else I've seen? I've seen NA players drop everything to help a low level player complete a quest. I've seen NA players give thousands of gil to help a someone get an important scroll. I've known a JP player who sat with me through my entire chocobo license quest just so I wouldn't get bored. I've seen JP players display unending patience in helping new players perform well in a party.
The fact is that all cultures have their bad traits and members. All cultures also have wonderful traits and good members. It is time for us to call a Duck a Duck. The excuses for wanting to party exclusively in one's own ethnic group is exactly that, excuses. It's all stereotyping and all of us (regardless of ethnicity) need to recognize that and move on.
In a way the relationships in this game are much like real world relationships. Most don't want to move out of their comfortable little boxes. We all need to let our skins toughen up, and start playing with each other as equals.
This game offers all of us as individuals of many nations to interact with each other and that is a wonderful thing. If we don't however, the oppurtunity will pass us by.
Quote:
I don't think the OP was pointing fingers on this. I think he's intent was sincere. If however, you were meaning to suggest that in general we need to stop pointing fingers then I apologize.
In the general forums, there is a lot of finger pointing, and I am refering to that.
Quote:
Judging someone to be rude based soley on ethnicity is the epitomy of arrogance. I've seen rediculous displays of inconsiderate behavior from ALL nationalities in this game. NA's that feel it necessary to /shout insults. I also know a chinese player who left our server because JP players constantly accused her of being a gil seller.
Quote:
In a way the relationships in this game are much like real world relationships. Most don't want to move out of their comfortable little boxes. We all need to let our skins toughen up, and start playing with each other as equals.
Unfortunately that is also part of RL... Otherwise we do not have racial discrimination. Japanese is a very uniform society, so that encourages suspicion to foreigners. Japanese is also very guest-liking culture -- where they put guests (foreginers) first. In general, some understanding of Japanese culture will probably make everyone happier.
A lot of Asian countries (including Japan) is historically very isolationstic (sp?). For the last 1000 years, Japan and China are basically is isolastic from Macro Polo until Charles Elliot and Matthew Perry come the 19th Century. That mind set still exists today to a certain extend.
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel
Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand
A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel
Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand
A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Scholar
39 posts
its very rare that i get a chance to play with other nationalities now, since i level most of my jobs in SPs ^^;
but when i do, i try my best to communicate with them as best i can. i know the auto translate isnt all that great sometimes but if you really try you can get your point across. i know a small amount of japanese and i also keep a JP/EN dictionary close at hand for the times where i have a JP member.
honestly, not a whole lot needs to be said when in an XP PT, its just alot more fun to chat as you XP. especially at later levels where you are looking at 42k tnls chatting with yr PT members makes it go by faster.
as far as the whole discrimination thing goes...*shrug* if a JP player wont PT with me because im NA (whether for language barrier or anti-NA) then its their loss.
as far as what Ama said about NA players acting foolish and being obnoxious? yep, its true we have people like that. are we all like that? uh, no. thats obvious to anyone of any nationality that not every NA like to spam about a mithras *** or gamble or are bad players.
i usually enjoy playing with JP players. most of the time (but not always ehehe) they know what they are doing and have decent gear. normally polite and know some English or will use the translator...many instances my JP party members were excited to test out their English skills and a good time was had by all. which is really cool since im a big fan of manga and the Japanese culture, and im planning on visiting Japan someday so its always nice to have contact with someone from there ^^v
but are JP players all nice or great players? hell no! (rant ahoy!) please, even just yesterday i tried to help out a JP Woodworker by offering him way way cheap arrowheads for arrows i was watching him synth. keep in mind he was purchasing mine on the AH, but i thought maybe i would offer em cheaper since through trade or bazaar since i wanted to get rid of em.
so i send a /tell using the translator, illustrating what im offering and for what price. do i get a tell back? nope. am i standing right next to him watching him craft? yes. so hes not AFK, hes synthing, not answering me, and guess what? rather than reply to an NA /tell, he went and bought more of my higher priced arrowheads from the AH. and its not an issue of language in that case either. chances are if someone knows what "konnichiwa" means then they also will understand if you reply with a "hai" or "iie" :P
ok all done there.
my point is that you cant pigeon-hole nationalities the way some people do. if someone wont PT with you because you speak English and they want a chatty PT in a diff language then thats their call. if someone wont PT with you because you are an NA, and they think all NAs are rude, beggars, unskilled, and /check-happy then leave them to their close-minded racism and move on. because lets face it if we all were like that, your Recieve in Jeuno would be abut 500 billion at all times due to the constant checking, shouts, and randoms. :P
but when i do, i try my best to communicate with them as best i can. i know the auto translate isnt all that great sometimes but if you really try you can get your point across. i know a small amount of japanese and i also keep a JP/EN dictionary close at hand for the times where i have a JP member.
honestly, not a whole lot needs to be said when in an XP PT, its just alot more fun to chat as you XP. especially at later levels where you are looking at 42k tnls chatting with yr PT members makes it go by faster.
as far as the whole discrimination thing goes...*shrug* if a JP player wont PT with me because im NA (whether for language barrier or anti-NA) then its their loss.
as far as what Ama said about NA players acting foolish and being obnoxious? yep, its true we have people like that. are we all like that? uh, no. thats obvious to anyone of any nationality that not every NA like to spam about a mithras *** or gamble or are bad players.
i usually enjoy playing with JP players. most of the time (but not always ehehe) they know what they are doing and have decent gear. normally polite and know some English or will use the translator...many instances my JP party members were excited to test out their English skills and a good time was had by all. which is really cool since im a big fan of manga and the Japanese culture, and im planning on visiting Japan someday so its always nice to have contact with someone from there ^^v
but are JP players all nice or great players? hell no! (rant ahoy!) please, even just yesterday i tried to help out a JP Woodworker by offering him way way cheap arrowheads for arrows i was watching him synth. keep in mind he was purchasing mine on the AH, but i thought maybe i would offer em cheaper since through trade or bazaar since i wanted to get rid of em.
so i send a /tell using the translator, illustrating what im offering and for what price. do i get a tell back? nope. am i standing right next to him watching him craft? yes. so hes not AFK, hes synthing, not answering me, and guess what? rather than reply to an NA /tell, he went and bought more of my higher priced arrowheads from the AH. and its not an issue of language in that case either. chances are if someone knows what "konnichiwa" means then they also will understand if you reply with a "hai" or "iie" :P
ok all done there.
my point is that you cant pigeon-hole nationalities the way some people do. if someone wont PT with you because you speak English and they want a chatty PT in a diff language then thats their call. if someone wont PT with you because you are an NA, and they think all NAs are rude, beggars, unskilled, and /check-happy then leave them to their close-minded racism and move on. because lets face it if we all were like that, your Recieve in Jeuno would be abut 500 billion at all times due to the constant checking, shouts, and randoms. :P
I have had several pts where i was the only one who spoke english. As someone stated once you know you job, its fairly simple as a ranger i just have a macro for <t> {found it} {ready!}? and wait for a yes or no. Most the time if one of them can speak any english at all they try and talk to me. I always tell them their english is very good, and hell if they can get their point across to me it is. But yes sometimes i wonder if they are talking about me since i have no idea what they are saying, but the xp is usually very good. They often have different camps than n/a use. And they are well aware that chainng vt mobs non stop is way more xp per hour than it+ rest, it+ rest. Anyways i also get a kick out of seeing their comments say {english} {no thanks}. But if you can get 1 jp player, yuo can get more. Sometimes its no so much na players, as it is just being odd man out and having no one to talk to. And yes some jp pts have been so bad it was laughable. They have had this game longer than we have, so yes for the mosst part they are better. I think if you compared a jp and an na who have been playing the same amount of time, you would see no difference. I still dont understand why its rude to look at thier gear. If i see someone with a flag up, quickest way to find out what lvl they are isto examine them. anyways its a game have fun, if you do pt with one, then please be respectfull to them, the same as we would hope they would be to us. And if they cant speak english very well, dont rub it in their face. Commend them for trying to over come the language barrier.
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