What is the concept of 'help'?Follow

Too much help is when you don't give the individual a chance to do things on their own. This leads to the often discussed high level noobs. If someone holds your hand through your time on game, you never have to get better.

I think a person that deserves help is one that has done their homework on their task at hand, and even attempted it. If they've put solid effort into it and just couldn't come out on top, then why not help them?

The people that expect help do not deserve it IMO. The people that think people owe them something are the ones that generally become the elitist. It's a poor mind set from day one and only gets worse as they progress.

I never really got any help till i was 40+ except my friend helped me get to Jeuno for the first time hell.. i even got all my Kazham keys alone.. it was a pain and i died a few times but i knew no one that would help me so it was either try alone or stop lvling :/

too much help

= creating uber noobers who suck and think that they are (impossible to gauge)

= non-voking tanks who got used to having a PL...

= WHMs whose spells are sooooo far from cap because of PL...

= gimped geared players becuase they wait for charity to fund their gear (yes, i have seen this as i leveled in the dunes, starter gear... lvl 17... /sigh)

= spoiled little brats who shout for help even for the simplest quests...

bah! dunes leveling sucks...

/rant off

Hehe, the innocent look is funny Enthuz. :P Well I agree with what Leet and Thea said. And the last paragraph that Leetfade posted pretty much sums things up. Especially this..."The people that expect help do not deserve it." So true....

To answer your questions, if you've done your homework and did all the prep work etc its ok to get high leve help. However, there's a difference between ONLY doing the quest/mission or what have you with high levels or trying it on your own or at the acceptable level. Why not try it with someone you dont know or someone you met in a pickup pt at the same level? I think when people start to depend on the strength of a higher level is when they become lesser players.

The second question or statement seems fine to me Enthuz. Cant expect a lvl 30 player to get SMN. Though at the same time when you think about it every player who started this game before there were any "high levels" out there had to level a regular job to 45 or so in order to get the advanced job quest completed. That includes other Advjobs as well. This brings up other things such as Artifact Gear. Most didnt get their AF till they were well above level 70. This was of course because it was new, didnt know the quests and there were no higher levels. Im only bringing this up because Im trying to play devils advocate too. Basically, people need to be patient and exhaust every option before going to someone who hasnt any stake in the time spent.

"i kinda get dragged along and hustled so that i can go with the crowd. but hey, it benefits me too, so i guess it's alright?" - I dont think this cool at all. No one should feel they NEED to do things unless they absolutely have to. Especially when it really doesnt benefit you. It benefits other people. At the same time though, some love to help others regardless of whom it benefits. I think Im like that....I spend alot of my time helping people and dont realize it till well after its completed. But I like to see others progress. And maybe that in itself is keeping me from doing exactly that. *shrugs* Bottom line though, if anyone ever feels that their being dragged along into something they shouldnt do it.

Paying people to do quests and missions is wrong. Thats my oppinion though. I would never pay out like your buying some mercenary to help you with something. If anything, thats what friends are for. And before that, you yourself should be able to handle most situations.

I just wanted to end this by saying that ive been helped plenty in this game. Its an extremely challenging and fun game to play. It can be frustrating at times but when you complete something its like....its just more gratifying. I have always tried to do whatever I can on my own. But at the same time, its great to have good friends that are there for you when you need them. ^^




Edited, Fri Feb 25 02:51:22 2005 by WrynOhmsford

thanks for all the chiming in. one more thing i'd like to add:

what really bothers me is the number of people complaining about the game being difficult from the very onset (i.e. pre-rank 5, pre-30), and making it seem like the challenges are inconquerable without high-lvl assistance. PLs, bible-like-guidebooks on how to lvl to 60 in a month, guidebook on what equipment to have, guidebook on crafting, etc.

i especially dislike it when a post-30 lvl person tells me, "my war always dies in the Valkrum Dunes." when i ask about the gimped WAR sub. and better yet "Valkrum Dunes is the ONLY place to lvl from 10-20 (regardless of job)." when i ask if he knew alternatives.

so, a personal plea to the high-lvls out there (50+): it really isn't how much you've been help. nor how much help you ask of others, but rather how much help you give someone else. helping is fine, just not so much that people really don't know what's going on?

I help a lot of people if asked and the reason for this is:

When US release 1st came out everyone (US) was on a level playing field. However some people levelled faster than others and some went on a sprint to 75.

Some of those people who went on this sprint ended up partying with JP players (the only players at that level at that time), they befriended these JP and many of the JP players helped them get the quests af etc at a lower level than they would have otherwise been able to achieve it.

This is where it all went wrong, there suddenly became a elitist element, you were not good enough to party with unless you had the uber gear, don't try and get in a party with us until you have xxx items etc.

This then had a ripple effect down to through the levels, sometimes made worse by the forums, new players feel they are expected to become experts as quickly as possible. Just look at some of the dunes rants and then think back to how you were when you had that single job and ask yourself are you being a bit harsh.

This is by no means concrete history just my Hypthesis on how the "I must have high level help to get my uber items as quickly as possible" mentality came from.

jetta's post? i like. :)

not that i don't like leet's, just had to specially mention that perhaps 'elitism' really is kicking in in the worst case possible. and after that little discussion with leet about linkshells and elitism in-game... *evil laugh*

i probably should consider this a comment on the general trend of things, as opposed to try and rouse all high levels to the obviously-not-so-right-cause of refusing to help any lower levels. :) there really is nothing wrong 'helping' someone on request, so long as the lower level understands what the quest/mission is about. i just get a little cheezed off now and then when people brag about achievements that they've effectively leeched off others. no biggie. :p

which leads me to wonder (ala carrie bradshaw style) why can we not help helping the helpless? (too much SatC for me, obviously. ><)

I think we have to remeber that 'help' is actually defined by the goals of the person being helped. If that person wants to get all the uber equipment and breeze through all the missions so that they can sit on high and say "hey, im lvl 70, ain't i cool?", well, then i say that is their perogative. And it is the perogative of anyone who wants to help them get there, to do so. But if the person wants to learn the game, to have fun and become a good player, then obviously we do them no service by holding their hands. I have recieved a good deal of help in my progress through the game, but i have been fortunate in the fact that the ppl helping me, also helped me to understand the game better, and almost never did things for me that i could easily do myself. And that is what i wanted. I want to play the game, not have it played for me. But others do want to have it played for them. And we can say that it fosters an attitude of elitism, but i think these type of ppl would be elitist whether they did everything on their own or had it handed to them. Because the one overwhelming truth i have found to playing this game, is that it is not the equipment and it is not the level or rank, it is the people playing the game. So i say let the bad players play badly if they want, and let ppl help them do so if theywant. it puts them on a different path and makes them easier to avoid.

Times and reasons I have refused or even withdrawn my offer of help are:

1. I am against Powerlevelling, I always refuse a request to PL.
2. Agreed to help get Papyrus for G1, withdrew offer when I discovered member hadn't even bothered to get their Vahzl crystal ready.
3. Helping a DRG with AF1, withdrew offer when he couldn't even tell me the pos of the spawn point in Eastern Altepa Desert.
4. If you are acting recklessy then i will withdraw my offer for help. (e.g. trying to navigate in Eldieme Necropolis without sneak/invis or trying to fight dark spark and creating demon trains instead on sneak/invis.)

If a person is prepared and has researched what they have to do then I will help every time.

One of the biggest annoyances I have is people who ask for help for Genkai 3. Genkai 3 can be soloed, I know because I soled all 3. The only help I recieved was someone opened the wall for me in Davoi saving me having to do the sub quest and I did not ask for that help it was freely offered.

My second annoyance is scaremongering. People seem to think certain quests etc are harder than they actually are. An example is I agreed to help someone get their Eldieme Necropolis coffer key. (BRD60 at the time) we had 6 members including a lvl 68 summoner. We stayed like that for an hour and a half in jeuno because one member insisted that we needed more help and an alliance had been wiped out yesterday. In the end we got tired of waiting and decided to head out. One of the rdm who needed the key (2 needed it in all) refused to go because he thought we would all be killed. To cut a long story short we went with 5, fought the coffer mobs no problems I slept any unfortunate adds SMN power along with rest of the party was strong enough 1 rdm got his key with no deaths and the other red mage stayed shouting for help in jeuno because he was too scared of trying to do it with an even party.

To sum up I will "Help" people in the proper definition of the word, i.e. I will aid them to do something themselves. I will not do it for them and I will not let people "Leech" via me.

sorry for the long post

I think you've over simplified things a bit 'Thuz. Where you say there is only two concepts I say there is three.

First off you have people with like minded goals working together. This I would call teaming up. If you need a Garlaige[Spl?] coffer key, and ask a few other people that need it as well to go down and kill key mobs, that's teaming up.

Secondly, there is straight up help. Using my previous example, you know you need a coffer key from Garlaige and you ask a couple higher lvl people for help getting the key. You have your research done, you know what mobs drop the key, where they spawn, etc. You just can't do it on your own.

Finally, there is expecting other people to play the game for you. This is only having a vague idea what you need to do and instead of trying to figure out more about it, you just expect people to tell you what to do. I'm sure everyone has seen this type of behavior before, so I won't belabor the point.

The first two types are not detrimental to character and skill development. The third is what has potential to create the high level noob we all know and hate. Also, the biggest way to tell if you are receiving the right kind of help is how you fell afterwards. If you feel gratefull to the people that helped you, then you are receiving the right kind of help. Unfortunately, it's hard to judge whether you are teetering off the edge from "straight up help" to "playing the game for them". If you have doubts that you are over-nuturing a player, just back off a bit and let them be for a short while. Got a newb in your ls that is approaching the level of sub-job, don't just get the items for them, let them find what items they need and ask for your help in getting them.

Ok, that's just my $.02.

I'm glad some low level people actually do some of the simple stuff before shouting in Jeuno for help.

Case in point:

Helping someone with killing Sam NM....no hatchet with him.

Helping someone get to well in Davoi....forgot to get book of West and East...

Do your homework before asking people to help.

lol.. @_@;

sneak and invi(oils and powders or whatever) get a map of davoi... do some background research (ok.. didn't even need alla on this.. my book of lies (strat guide) actually was enough on it..)... walk down the river and its not exactly that hard to head to the well surely? >< i'm sure lvl 30 and solo that...

yeh.. it does feel like now a days a lotta ppl don't actually play their game.. they get someone to walk it for them @_@;

i mean.. i escorted someone to jeuno the other day, first time to jeuno, its dangerous and hard esp when you dunno the way. so i helped... told them i'll meet them at crag of dem... and he says how do you get there @_@;

o....k... he was in bastok.. he was a bastokan... erm... /map?

and asking help for sub job quest.. got all the items and all.. in dunes... need a guide to show him where is the galka in selbina.. i mean.. thatz just totally stupid...

and i do think PL spoils ppl.. i can't say i'm an excellent whm, but i do think i know what i'm doing at least.. how to not get too much hate but to keep party up and alive, conserve mp and all

i didn't have much PL through my life as a whm.. esp in low lvl since i dunno anyone at all when i played and the dunes -> qufim partys are places where you really learn your jobs.. learn from your mistakes.. death is harsh but its a great opportunity to learn from it and never do it again...

its scary how many people spam Cure III(or cure II for that matter) at those places... and thinks its alright since they've had PLers with them all along...

also people who don't lvl unless they have a PL.. i know someone that asks ppl to pl him to increase chance of party... and now he's lvl 52 and still doing it.. @_@;

money begging... that is actually getting pretty annoying... people are like "o.. i neeed this item and i need this amount of gil, {please}{Help me out!}"

erm.. erm.. how about just stop lvling like a machine and take some time out and farm? where do you think i got MY cash from? @_@ so i spend my time, lvling crafting... harvesting.. teleporting.. farming .. my hard earned cash so that you can lvl without earning yourself some cash for your gear?

i'm not saying i don't lend cash out.. i mean.. if people just lack cash for a chocobo during an EXP party or they have earned a lotta cash for a item and just a few k short.. i'm more than happy to help =) i teled my *** off for my Raise II, i was 71k short (earned l;ike 210k from teleport.. that was the only way i could earn gil back then since i didn't know any other ways lol) and ls member lent me the cash i needed... paid him back as soon as i got enough gil =).. thatz.. not too bad no?? but some people just don't care.. want top notch EQ without working hard for it... x_x

and people just want rank 5 without even looking out for where you gotta go in the magicite missions... ffs....

ok.. i understand if you need help to kill those nm for the Item since its not exactly solo-able till high lvl.. or if you're a whm.. i dunno.. never tried soloing it lol

but.. come on! i have really bad sense of direction, but i managed to solo to get my magicites by researching on Alla, get exact direction (the guide is pretty cool btw) and didn't have a map of beadeaux or davoi and was able to do it easy... (well.. got killed in castle ojt.. (SP><) but that was becoz of lack of skills in invisible... ) why can't you do it if you want rank 5?!
and hte sense of reward after getting it.. its great!

so i agree.. people who've tried and failed or researched and know can't possibly do it themselves deserve the help.

eek.. long post.. sorry lol