Almalieque wrote:
Your problem isn't charity, but the source of funds. You admitted that welfare can improve lives. So the problem isn't welfare, it's the net negative (which can be changed via reform). You want it gone because you fundamentally disagree with the concept and instead of just saying that, you're trying to convince us that it should be gone because it's actually bad for the black community and that is your concern.
I want it gone because it's has a net negative effect on people's real economic outcomes. Period. And no, I don't think that mere "reform" could eliminate that net negative situation because, as I've explained several times, the very nature of trying to do charity with government creates the entitlement problem. People come to think they have a "right" to those benefits when government hands them out but not when it's a private charity. And that mentality itself is responsible for a large portion of the problems welfare creates.
Saying that sometimes people who receive welfare can succeed isn't an endorsement of welfare. Sometimes, people can do hard drugs and be successful too. But that doesn't mean I think we should fund people's drug habits. Some great poetry exists because of hallucinogens, but for every Xanadu, there's a million idiots dying in a gutter somewhere gibbering about flying cats or something. It seems monumentally foolish to actually use public funds on something that does more harm than good.
Alma wrote:
You don't want the answer, you are trying to get me to convince you that Democrats are better than Republicans, which is infeasible and dumb.
If that's infeasible and dumb, then why argue that it's ok that blacks vote 90% for Democrats? Seems quite reasonable to ask you why you think the Democrats are better than the Republicans.
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I gave you the list of policies/concepts that blacks tend to share/like that are supported by the Democratic party.
But that list was all thing in the form of "oppose this position of the GOP". I thought I was clear about this.
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That list has nothing to do with being against the GOP. You just keep saying that in order to pretend that I didn't address your question.
Huh? Do I have to actually go back and quote you (again)? You said that blacks "tend to oppose privatization of public services, like schools", and "The voting rights act is a great example". Ironically, you didn't say what it was an example of, but you said both of those in direct response for me asking you for a reason you support the Democrats, but to not put it in the form of "things we don't like about the GOP". And when I asked what you meant about the VRA, you said that the GOP "gutted it". So both of your responses did exactly that which I asked you not to do: Framed support for the Democrats based on opposition to the GOP.
You've done this continually. It's funny because I'll point it out and you'll say "I don't do that!", and then immediately turn around and do it again.
What policies of the Democratic party do you think are good? Specifically, good for blacks? So good that they'd vote Democrat 90% of the time? And I don't want a single answer to be "because the oppose <some position of the GOP>". That's still arguing against the GOP. I want an actual positive answer. Don't tell me what you oppose. Tell me what you support.
It's like pulling freaking teeth here.
Sigh. Putting the context back in because once again, you've gone of the rails:
Alma wrote:
Point being, you gave examples of black people thinking specifically about policies that are good for them all while arguing that they aren't thinking about what's good for them, but what they have been told. Gbaji wrote:
First off, let me point out that you've reversed the direction again. I didn't give any examples. You did. And, as I pointed out above, you didn't frame them as "policies that are good for black people" (and thus presumably tied to the Democrats somehow), but as "policies that are bad for black people" (and in your mind tied somehow to Republicans). You told me what black people didn't like (privatization of public schools and gutting of the VRA). You told me about things that disproportionately harm black people (stop and frisk, searches, police stops, arrests, etc). What you have not actually done yet in this thread is tell me a positive thing that Democrats do that you think actually helps black people.
Secondly, when you can't actually explain why those policies are good/bad for black people, then it's pretty reasonable to conclude that you didn't think about it and derive those answers, but are repeating something you were told. Right? If you'd gone through the mental process of deciding that X is good for black people and Y is bad for black people, you should easily be able to write down that process. But you have steadfastly refused to do anything remotely close to this. So yeah, I'm going to go with "just repeating what you've been told".
You're the one transitioning the conversation, you didn't respond to Uncle Tom at all.
Yeah. Because that's not the part of your post I was responding to. I've spoken at length about the definition and use of the term Uncle Tom in other responses (which, amusingly enough, you didn't address), but in this one, I was responding to the bolded statement you made. You were asserting that I had somehow provided a list of examples of black people thinking about policies that are good for them. I did no such thing. You gave a list of policies black people think are
bad for them, though.
My argument is that black people are not helping themselves by voting in lockstep for the Dems. You keep insisting that it's reasonable for them to do so, but keep kinda dancing around when I ask why. That's what the second part of my response was about. You keep insisting that it's ok, but when I press you for reasons, you can't give any. Which does make me think that you don't actually understand the reasons. You've been told a set of positions you're supposed to hold and you are just repeating them.
But hey. Prove me wrong if you can. Just tell me reasons why black people should vote for Democrats that isn't in a "against something the GOP does" format. That would at least be a starting point.
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Funny how you remember my refusal to explain how the DEMs are better than the GOP, but you can't remember the actual list. Besides, my exact words were "The Voting Rights Act is a great example". You said "I wold argue that the perception that Democrats support social programs that benefit black people is a huge reason why black people vote so overwhelmingly Democrat. If you think otherwise, then by all means, provide said alternative explanation.". I gave you a list of reasons outside of social programs.
Well, actually the exchange went like this:
Alma wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Then do so. And not in "because they don't like them" or "because they have policies that hurt them". Be specific. See, the problem I'm having here is that I'm arguing that Republican policies are not actually bad for blacks, but Dem policies are, and that the Dems use labels and repeated claims to the contrary to convince people that it's the other way around. So you repeating those same claims doesn't hold any weight here. It's circular. I'm saying that people only think GOP policies are bad for blacks because Liberals and Democrats keep saying it. And your response is to just say that their policies are bad for black people. All you're doing is repeating the claim I'm refuting. If you really think that claim is true, then explain why. And be specific.
I'll also point out the irony of me pointing out how people fail to argue why blacks for *for* Democrats but instead why they vote *against* Republicans, and you proceed to do that exact same thing. Shouldn't you vote for a party because you agree with their positions? Aren't you the least bit concerned that maybe the reason the Dems want you focused on why you should dislike the GOP is because they're afraid that if you actually look at their own positions, platform, and past actions you might discover that you dislike them even more? Just a thought.
The Voting Rights Act is a great example.Conceptually, blacks also tend to be against privatization of public services, such as schools.
I asked you for examples that were reasons to vote *for* Democrats and not reasons to vote *against* the GOP. You listed two things you didn't like about the GOP (your allegation that they "gutted the VRA", and that they support "privatization of and/or private schools in general". So you immediately went to exactly that which I asked you not to do. I'll note (again) that these don't say why the Dems are "better than the GOP", or even "better for blacks than the GOP". They are just things that you don't like about the GOP.
Do you even understand what I'm asking for? I want you to tell me why the Democrats are a good party to vote *for*. Not why you don't like the GOP. I'm looking for a positive answer, not a negative one. And I want actual platform positions of the party, not symptoms of black poverty (which is what you gave me earlier, and was the "laundry list" referred to). I think you're just having a problem with directionality. And you keep skipping logical steps. I want you to name specific Democratic party positions and/or actions and then tell me why blacks might vote for the Democrats because of that position or action.