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#302 Mar 01 2016 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, but none of that suggests that Sanders would have been helped by a shorter primary cycle.
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#303 Mar 01 2016 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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Of the polls that are being counted so far only Virginia actually looks like a contest.
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#304 Mar 01 2016 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Possible for Rubio to win there. The northern DC area is population dense and very establishment friendly (can you believe it?)
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#305 Mar 01 2016 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I'm not excited about Trump winning. I find it fascinating from a political standpoint -- he's tearing down a lot of what the old rules and assumptions were -- but I'd certainly rather that he wasn't president (although, after the last week I'm not sure Rubio or Cruz would be any better). However, part of Trump's rise was the fact that the GOP laughed him off and did nothing to slow it. Sources in the Cruz and Rubio campaigns admit that they just started collecting opposition on Trump a few weeks ago, for a candidate that declared in June 2015. SuperPACs that wanted to go after him were told to stand down by big money donors who (a) didn't want Trump's ire directed at them and (b) stopped trusting these PAC guys after their disastrous 2012 results and the Jeb! fiasco. The GOP primary candidates have spent the last couple months wrestling with each other to be the alternative to Trump while no one has taken Trump on directly until a few days ago with Rubio's antics that make the primary look less like a nomination contest for leader of the free world and more like two 11 year olds insulting each others moms over Xbox.


Because everyone just assumed he'd flame out on his own (as did I). He's basically his own opposition, but it hasn't hurt him. That's the problem. The only way to counter him is to lower yourself to his level. Which no one wanted to do. It's basically a catch-22. If you stand by and hope he'll sink himself, he gains in the polls. If you engage him, you lose (see Bush for an example of this).

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In contrast, Clinton is already going against Trump. They've reportedly been collecting opposition on him since he declared and it'll be all cannons on him, not this dicking around to see who gets to be the "establishment lane" and who gets the "evangelical lane". Trump got to where he is because the GOP was complacent about him, if he won the general it wouldn't be because Clinton did the same.


We were similarly confident 6 months ago Joph. I kinda (and I honestly can't believe I'm saying this) hope you're right. But I'm starting to suspect that, assuming he does win the GOP nomination, and assuming Clinton wins the Dems, that once Clinton actually tries to use that opposition research and launch attacks on him, he'll just smirk, make an offensive remark about her, and move on. And the crowds, now conditioned to respond positively to him when he does that, will absolutely love him for it.

You're going to run into the same problem the GOP is having. You're trying to run a candidate on experience, capability to fill the office in question, and the usual mix of good image, polish, professionalism, demeanor, etc. You have to run that way, because that's what people expect of their "normal" candidates, which Clinton absolutely is. The problem is that you're running against someone who literally does... not... care... about... that... stuff. At all. And his popularity stems from this. So while Clinton can and will be hurt for past mistakes, bad business dealings, shady behavior, questions about email servers, looming investigations, shrill voice, etc, the more you point at the same kind of things in Trump's past, the more he proudly owns it as proof that he's not one of those stinking politicians that everyone hates.

That's what's so bizarre about this whole thing. He's winning on the very things that usually sink a candidate. Assuming we don't see any shift in his popularity today (which doesn't look to be happening), he can't be attacked on qualifications or personality or past. Honestly, about the only thing I think you could maybe attack him on, is if you could somehow show that he actually is and has been "part of the establishment" all along. That's what he's running against, and none of the normal attacks work. I don't think the Clinton camp yet has a clue what's going to happen when they try to go after him.

She's an establishment candidate. And a weak one at that.
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#306 Mar 01 2016 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Because everyone just assumed he'd flame out on his own (as did I). He's basically his own opposition, but it hasn't hurt him. That's the problem. The only way to counter him is to lower yourself to his level.

I don't think that's true. There's tons of opposition that just wasn't being used. Why did no one mention Trump U until the last debate? Before that the only thing anyone was talking about was some old woman and a parking lot. That's it? That's the GOP oppo file for Trump's decades of doing shit?
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We were similarly confident 6 months ago Joph. I kinda (and I honestly can't believe I'm saying this) hope you're right.

It's not confidence, it's work. Work that the GOP wasn't doing (both the establishment machine and the individual candidates). I'm not being mean or unfair to the Republicans here, this is their own admission.
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#307 Mar 01 2016 at 7:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trump is scratching at 50% in Georgia which would win him all of its delegates. Wins in Alabama and Tennessee. Leads in Vermont (Kasich 10pts behind) and Virginia (Rubio 7pts behind).
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#308 Mar 01 2016 at 7:23 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Ok, but none of that suggests that Sanders would have been helped by a shorter primary cycle.

I keep saying that Sen. Sanders in general has too small of a demographic to make a difference regardless of the set up.

The point is that momentum should not be a factor on whether or not you support someone.
#309 Mar 01 2016 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Apparently Trump is nearly tying Rubio in Virginia suburbs and doing unexpectedly well in the Virginia Beach area. That's... very bad for Rubio.
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#310 Mar 01 2016 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Finally, some decent result maps: http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results
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#311 Mar 01 2016 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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My favorite tag line of the night, under projected wins: Carson: nothing yet, but keep refreshing this page just in case. Smiley: lol
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#312 Mar 01 2016 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
My favorite tag line of the night, under projected wins: Carson: nothing yet, but keep refreshing this page just in case. Smiley: lol

Smiley: laugh

Kasich is coming up on Trump in Vermont. It'll be hella embarassing if Kasich wins a state tonight and Rubio doesn't.

Fox (and now CNN) called VA for Trump.

Edited, Mar 1st 2016 7:45pm by Jophiel
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#313 Mar 01 2016 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Ok, but none of that suggests that Sanders would have been helped by a shorter primary cycle.

I keep saying that Sen. Sanders in general has too small of a demographic to make a difference regardless of the set up.

The point is that momentum should not be a factor on whether or not you support someone.


Momentum is a factor in a crowded field, in a 2 person race it shouldn't be a factor.

I'd also dispute the assertion that Sanders has a small demographic.
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#314 Mar 01 2016 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Does Sanders have small hands? You know what they say about a man with small hands... small demographics.

Kasich certainly stole Rubio's VA win from him. Which works well for Kasich since his electoral existence relies on Rubio not winning.

Texas is going well for Cruz. He won't lock in 50% but he's not being beaten which is more than anyone who isn't Trump can say. Plus Cruz might lock 50%+ in some districts... maybe.

Man, this is a shitty night for Rubio.

More good news for Cruz!
CBS News wrote:
A judge has dismissed a claim that Republican presidential candidate Ted Cruz isn't eligible for the Illinois ballot because he was born in Canada.

Kirby said the suburban Chicago attorney who filed the complaint, Lawrence Joyce, failed to give a copy of it to Cruz or state electoral board members, as required by Illinois law. Instead, Joyce served only lawyers representing Cruz and the board.

What is it about citizenship/birth challenges that make people idiots?

Edited, Mar 1st 2016 7:59pm by Jophiel
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#315 Mar 01 2016 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
What is it about citizenship/birth challenges that make people idiots?

People.
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#316 Mar 01 2016 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Looks as though Cruz will win OK. So Cruz will have won three states so far (IA, TX, OK), Rubio zero. Except for Va, Rubio is coming in 3rd everywhere. What's Rubio's argument for being the one to rally around and stand against Trump again?
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#317 Mar 01 2016 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Because everyone just assumed he'd flame out on his own (as did I). He's basically his own opposition, but it hasn't hurt him. That's the problem. The only way to counter him is to lower yourself to his level.

I don't think that's true. There's tons of opposition that just wasn't being used.


All of which is the same pattern of "Trump is a self centered jerk who does whatever he thinks is best". Um... Which is precisely what makes him popular with his supporters.

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Why did no one mention Trump U until the last debate?


Did it hurt him? There's your answer.

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Before that the only thing anyone was talking about was some old woman and a parking lot. That's it? That's the GOP oppo file for Trump's decades of doing shit?


And again, none of this seems to hurt him. I'm not sure why you think when Clinton brings it up, it magically will.

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We were similarly confident 6 months ago Joph. I kinda (and I honestly can't believe I'm saying this) hope you're right.

It's not confidence, it's work. Work that the GOP wasn't doing (both the establishment machine and the individual candidates). I'm not being mean or unfair to the Republicans here, this is their own admission.


Ok. Whatever you need to tell yourself to qualm the fears. I'll drink a cold one for you when the time comes.
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#318 Mar 01 2016 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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He went from "Trump has absolutely no chance at all" to "No one has a chance against Trump" in the span of one primary. Smiley: laugh
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#319 Mar 01 2016 at 8:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Looks as though Cruz will win OK. So Cruz will have won three states so far (IA, TX, OK), Rubio zero. Except for Va, Rubio is coming in 3rd everywhere. What's Rubio's argument for being the one to rally around and stand against Trump again?


Honestly? Because while Rubio doesn't have individual states where he's super strong, his support is consistent across all regions and demographics. Cruz has a couple of narrow demographics where he is very strong. So in areas where those demographics have strength, he pulls enough out to win. But he struggles elsewhere. The theory being that if one of them were to drop out and make it a two man race, Rubio would have a better shot at taking a large share of the winner takes all states down the line than Cruz would. Obviously, this rests on the assumption that a sufficiently powerful "anyone but Trump" voting block holds sway. The same number shifting either direction between the two would make Cruz stronger in the states he's already strong in and would likely win anyway, but not be enough to get wins in other states, while Rubio, with more even support, might win many more and tip the delegate scales.

Well. At least that was the apparent pattern in the races so far. We'll see what the final numbers look like, but it's looking to me like Rubio will likely drop out at this point. He's got three second places, and a whole lot of 3rd (and I think one fourth). That's just not enough of a showing for his strategy to work IMO. And Cruz did well enough that he's definitely not getting out at this point. Hard to say what'll happen.
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#320 Mar 01 2016 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Honestly? Because while Rubio doesn't have individual states where he's super strong, his support is consistent across all regions and demographics.

Consistently 3rd place, as it turns out.
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#321 Mar 01 2016 at 9:14 PM Rating: Good
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Holy smokes, those margins are redic.
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#322 Mar 01 2016 at 9:15 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
He went from "Trump has absolutely no chance at all" to "No one has a chance against Trump" in the span of one primary. Smiley: laugh


Way to miss the forest for the trees there skippy.

My insistence that Trump could not win was based on the assumption that his support was relatively small numbers of angry independents and liberals, showing up in the early GOP races in smallish states, flooding the relatively small normal numbers of rank and file GOP voters with sufficient "new" numbers to tip the scales to his advantage. The test for this was tonight. If I was right, he would not be nearly so competitive in races that were larger, closed, and held on the same day as Dem races in the same state. Based on the numbers we're seeing, I was wrong. And unlike others on this forum, when I'm wrong I re-assess my working theory to account for the new data.

Tonight's results indicate that Trump's support is far more broad and far stronger than I'd previously thought. But given that his negatives are so high, even among the GOP, this can only mean that many people are overlooking those negatives for some other reason. My new working theory is that the perception of him as a tough outsider who doesn't give a crap about "normal" political rules outweighs the negatives. And if that's the case in the GOP primary, it's going to still be the same case in the general election. Clinton is about as establishment as it gets.

I think that liberals thinking that Trump will be a joke candidate and will lose once people realize this fact are going to find themselves just as wrong as us conservatives assuming the same thing 6 months ago. The mere fact that he's winning means that he "can win", despite all the negatives. And that's going to make yet more people ignore the negatives. Just as it apparently has happened in the GOP primaries.

Who knows? Maybe I'll be wrong again. I actually kinda hope I am. But I'm just warning people about what might be coming. We obviously underestimated Trump (well, or how angry people are at the status quo really). I suspect that all the folks assuming that Clinton will know how to handle him are probably doing the same thing. Cause... you know... we did the same thing. And Clinton is a very very weak candidate. Most of the GOP field probably could have beat her in the general. Trump's message should be stronger against her than against them. Yet, he's wiping the floor with them. I'd think strongly about that.
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#323 Mar 01 2016 at 9:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Clinton brand among African-Americans is strong (2008 stumbles aside, which have apparently been forgiven). Helps a lot that Bill came across as very relatable in the 90's, coming off of the Reagan-Bush Lee Atwater "Cadillac Welfare Queens" era. Southern boy from a poor family willing to visit the black neighborhoods, eat collard greens, attend black baptist services and play jazz saxophone apparently gets you traction.
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#324 Mar 01 2016 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rubio's leading Minnesota caucuses! OMG OMG OMG OMG #Marcomentum #3-5-2-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-2-1plan
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#325 Mar 01 2016 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I think... my money is on Trump after Hayden said military won't obey him. He has the entire establishment scared ********** and there are people out there professing their devotion just because of that.

Only goes to show, you can only disenfrachise and ignore populace's wishes for so long.
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#326 Mar 01 2016 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I think that liberals thinking that Trump will be a joke candidate and will lose once people realize this fact...

Yeah, but that's not the argument. The argument is that Clinton won't be treating Trump like a "joke candidate" as the GOP candidates did. No one is relying on everyone to say "Haha, that Trump..." any longer. Bit late for the red team though -- he's your standard bearer now.
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