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Definition of Marriage has been changedFollow

#1 Mar 18 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Because when you publish the dictionary, you are allowed to do this.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage

Kudos to Merriam-Webster for this.

Next stop, unabridged OED!
#2REDACTED, Posted: Mar 18 2009 at 8:25 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ooh ooh me next! I want to change the definition of a word now.
#3 Mar 19 2009 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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Oxford English or it never happened.
#4 Mar 19 2009 at 1:40 AM Rating: Good
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AlexanderrOfAsura wrote:
Ooh ooh me next! I want to change the definition of a word now.


Haven't you already been trying to do this on a state-by-state/federal basis for years now? Smiley: confused
#5 Mar 19 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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AlexanderrOfAsura wrote:
Ooh ooh me next! I want to change the definition of a word now.


Try Wikipedia.
#6 Mar 19 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Did Merriam-Webster change their definition after the public policy changed? If so, you can't blame the dictionary.

#7 Mar 19 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Does this make the term "same-sex marriage" a tautology?

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#8 Mar 19 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
After thinking about it for a minute, no, it probably doesn't.

I'll try to do that before I post, next time.

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#9 Mar 19 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Default
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trickybeck wrote:

Did Merriam-Webster change their definition after the public policy changed? If so, you can't blame the dictionary.


When did the public policy change? And where? There are far more states which have legally defined marriage to *not* include same sex couples than have done the opposite, so it's hard to present this as anything other than changing the definition in a dictionary so that folks can point to that when arguing what the definition of marriage is. But no one ever quote dictionary definitions in an argument, right?

Circular logic is circular...
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#10 Mar 19 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
When did the public policy change?


When gay people are only taunted instead of killed? Is it really so odd to you to suggest that there has been (and continues to be) a massive paradigm shift in the perception of deviant sexual practices?
Quote:

But no one ever quote dictionary definitions in an argument, right?


They shouldn't, but they will.
#11 Mar 19 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
it's hard to present this as anything other than changing the definition in a dictionary so that folks can point to that when arguing what the definition of marriage is.
There ya go. The liberal media now includes Merriam-Webster.
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#12 Mar 19 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
it's hard to present this as anything other than changing the definition in a dictionary so that folks can point to that when arguing what the definition of marriage is.
There ya go. The liberal media now includes Merriam-Webster.


It always has my friend. It always has...
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#13 Mar 19 2009 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: tinfoilhat
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#14 Mar 19 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Smiley: tinfoilhat
He's right, Joph. It does change with the times.
#15 Mar 19 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Smiley: tinfoilhat
He's right, Joph. It does change with the times.
I take issue with this Post.
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#16 Mar 19 2009 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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pensive wrote:
When gay people are only taunted instead of killed? Is it really so odd to you to suggest that there has been (and continues to be) a massive paradigm shift in the perception of deviant sexual practices?

No, that's acceptance by the populace, not public policy.

Public policy change was:
Legalized same-sex marriage in:
Belgium
Canada
Netherlands
Norway
South Africa
Spain
Connecticut
Massachusetts
California*

Also: several countries (and New York) that recognize SSM but don't perform it.

Edit: The dictionary is defining the concept. It doesn't matter whether the concept is legal or not, it still exists.


Edited, Mar 19th 2009 4:32pm by trickybeck
#17 Mar 19 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Thats true, I suppose I was only thinking about policy in america.
#18 Mar 19 2009 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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On first glance I thought maybe someone had figured out to change the "I marrid my husband today" thread.

I have a hard time trusting anything revolving around marriage!
#19 Mar 19 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:
The dictionary is defining the concept. It doesn't matter whether the concept is legal or not, it still exists.


It's cart leading the horse logic, regardless. On the one hand, you can say that as social perceptions change, our definition of the words change. But it's equally true that by simply changing the definitions of words in dictionaries you can change the social perception.


I can say with some great degree of certainty that at some point in the future, I'll be debating the issue of gay marriage in some thread, and someone will link to the MW definition of marriage to "proof" that the definition of marriage includes same sex couples. Whatever that means in the broader context of that future debate isn't really relevant, but I've run into the "the dictionary says it's true so it must be" argument often enough to know this will happen.
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#20 Mar 19 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:


I can say with some great degree of certainty that at some point in the future, I'll be debating the issue of gay marriage in some thread, and someone will link to the MW definition of marriage to "proof" that the definition of marriage includes same sex couples. Whatever that means in the broader context of that future debate isn't really relevant, but I've run into the "the dictionary says it's true so it must be" argument often enough to know this will happen.


This must be a huge problem for gbaji, because as we all know, the only TRUE definition of a concept is the one that gbaji makes up.

True facts!

I have to say, watching the Maestro of redefining concepts protesting the redefinition of a concept is some very entertaining irony on a slow night.

Edited, Mar 19th 2009 7:16pm by Ambrya
#21 Mar 19 2009 at 8:42 PM Rating: Default
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I tend to prefer definitions for things that don't reflect relatively recent political agendas. I think that this is a valid approach for someone who is arguing against the very political agenda at issue.


I just don't see how you can have any sense of the history of an issue if you don't at least acknowledge when word meaning changes have occurred. And I don't see how you can intelligently discuss an issue without an understanding of the history. If we don't know where we've been and where we came from, how can we assess where we are and where we're going? It's like just floating free in a cloud of made up stuff and thinking you know where you're going.


I don't like it. Not one bit!
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#22 Mar 19 2009 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I tend to prefer definitions for things that don't reflect relatively recent political agendas.
As Tricky notes, the expanded definition reflects recent realities both in the US and globally.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#23 Mar 19 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anyone sane wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I tend to prefer definitions for things that don't reflect relatively recent political agendas.
As Tricky notes, the expanded definition reflects recent realities both in the US and globally.

Does not!
Does too!


etc. etc.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way...
#24 Mar 19 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I tend to prefer definitions for things that don't reflect relatively recent political agendas.


You SHOULD prefer only the definitions that come after a lot of thought and dialogue about various words in the philosophy of language; whether or not they are reflective of political agenda is irrelevant. The definition will fail if the speakers of the language decide it to.
#25 Mar 19 2009 at 9:30 PM Rating: Default
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Pensive wrote:
Quote:
I tend to prefer definitions for things that don't reflect relatively recent political agendas.


You SHOULD prefer only the definitions that come after a lot of thought and dialogue about various words in the philosophy of language; whether or not they are reflective of political agenda is irrelevant. The definition will fail if the speakers of the language decide it to.


No. I prefer discussions *about* such things. Writing the definition for something that matches what you want it to be isn't the same thing.

Maybe our definitions of "a lot of thought and dialog" differ here. I tend to think that about 20 years of political activism, which has succeeded in swaying the legislatures of what? two states to change their legal definitions, while something like 20 states have formalized definitions in the opposite isn't exactly sufficient for someone to write the new and not even close to adopted or accepted definition into the dictionary.

In a century... maybe. Right now, it's pretty obvious wishful thinking.
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#26 Mar 19 2009 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Pensive wrote:
Quote:
I tend to prefer definitions for things that don't reflect relatively recent political agendas.


You SHOULD prefer only the definitions that come after a lot of thought and dialogue about various words in the philosophy of language; whether or not they are reflective of political agenda is irrelevant. The definition will fail if the speakers of the language decide it to.


No. I prefer discussions *about* such things. Writing the definition for something that matches what you want it to be isn't the same thing.

Maybe our definitions of "a lot of thought and dialog" differ here. I tend to think that about 20 years of political activism, which has succeeded in swaying the legislatures of what? two states to change their legal definitions, while something like 20 states have formalized definitions in the opposite isn't exactly sufficient for someone to write the new and not even close to adopted or accepted definition into the dictionary.

In a century... maybe. Right now, it's pretty obvious wishful thinking.
What's it like to be a century behind the rest of the world?
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