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#77 Apr 30 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Default
Tulip,

Quote:
I understand that you've said over and over that homosexuals are more likely to contract an STD


That's a fact.

Quote:
Promiscuous people are more likely to contract an STD, whether they be homosexual or heterosexual.


That's also a fact.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.
#78 Apr 30 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
hangtennow wrote:
Tulip,

Quote:
I understand that you've said over and over that homosexuals are more likely to contract an STD


That's a fact.


No, it's not.

Any sexual couple is more likely to spread an STD if they have **** sex because there can be tearing in the ****. But homosexual men aren't the only ones having **** sex, and homosexual women are far less likely to spread an STD.

#79 Apr 30 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
hangtennow wrote:
I also like hearing about all the "radical right" without so much of a whisper about the radical left crazies like Pelosi and Reid.
Pelosi and Reid aren't trying to drive moderate Democrats out of the party.


And the Republican leadership is? You're kidding, right?

Quote:
The Democratic leadership recognized a couple cycles ago that the way you win Republican or swing districts/states isn't by running "radical left crazies" but by running moderate/centrist types such as the Blue Dog Democrats.


Again. Totally false. The Dems capitalized on the media support of the far left anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-everything-conservative movement and fielded candidates who played up to those things. They didn't win by running Bludog's Joph. They won by running "fresh faced" newcomers willing to parrot the anti-Bush talking points which were working so well in the public at the time.

They ran on a "Get out of Iraq now!" platform. That's not bluedog by any stretch of the imagination and to claim it now is ludicrous.

Quote:
This gave them a 2006 win and helped to expand their lead in 2008. The Club For Growth wing of the GOP is instead engaged in some party cleansing where anyone who isn't a strict conservative needs to get the hell out and convinced that once the party's been purged, all the voters will come running to them.


Way to read the party line there Joph.

What's happening is that the same wave of anti-Bush/etc sentiment has resulted in politicians who lean farther leftward or at least give lip service to the talking points having an easier time of it politically than those who don't. It's not that the Republicans have gotten more conservative, but that the rhetoric has gotten so strong that anyone who doesn't follow along gets labeled as a Right Wing zealot.

The Republicans aren't moving right Joph. The political landscape is moving left. We're back in the 1970s politically speaking (and economically as well). And most likely the same cycle will repeat itself. Back then, Republicans also increasingly shifted their policies if not their party allegiance to the left. And we all know how well that worked. Eventually, the people of this country will remember why they don't usually support such radical silliness, but until then the politicians will see adopting those positions as a more viable way of retaining power.
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#80 Apr 30 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And the Republican leadership is? You're kidding, right?
Who said that? I noted that the climate in the party is increasing hostile towards moderates. Varrus tried to draw up comparisons to Pelosi and Reid.
Quote:
Again. Totally false. The Dems capitalized on the media support of the far left anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-everything-conservative movement and fielded candidates who played up to those things. They didn't win by running Bludog's Joph.
Nonsense. The 2006 election strategy revolved around finding moderate Democrats who could compete in red-leaning districts. This isn't even in question by folks who paid attention to it. Here's a few exerpts from a lengthy article the Chicago Tribune ran about Rahm Emmanuel (architect of the 2006 House power flip) immediately following the election:
Chicago Tribune wrote:
During the past year, the Tribune had exclusive access to the strategy sessions, private fundraisers and other moments that shaped this victory. The newspaper agreed not to print any of the details until after the election. Now that the votes have been counted, the story of how Emanuel helped end an era of Republican rule can be told.

He did it, in large measure, by remaking the Democratic Party in his own image.
[...]
Democrats had a history of appeasing party constituencies. Emanuel tore up the old litmus tests on abortion and other issues. With techniques that would make a Big Ten football coach blush, he recruited candidates who could mount tough challenges in some of the reddest patches of America.
[...]
All of Emanuel's scolding and cajoling would have meant nothing if he fielded weak candidates. After yet another devastating loss in 2004, he and other Democratic leaders quickly determined that the party needed a machismo implant. Emanuel looked for candidates with strong backgrounds, from sheriffs to soldiers, to counteract a Democratic image of softness.

This is why he badly wanted Heath Shuler, a former football star, to run for Congress as a Democrat in North Carolina. An evangelical Christian who opposes abortion, Shuler couldn't easily have his views caricatured by the GOP.
[...]
His goal was to recruit 50 credible challengers. He had one criterion: people who could win. That may sound obvious, but it's not. Many Democrats did not believe in recruiting overly conservative candidates, no matter how promising. In the past, those like Shuler who opposed abortion were not welcome in the party.

"We don't have an ideological purity test," said Rep. Chris Van Hollen of Maryland, Emanuel's top lieutenant for recruiting. "If you believe in the basic gut principles of the Democratic Party: –opportunity, fairness for all–, we're not going to hold people to a litmus test."
[...]
But in the election's aftermath, it is clear that Democrats won several races, including Shuler's, that they would have lost if not for Emanuel's tireless recruiting. He had put enough legitimate challengers in place to exploit the unexpected opportunity.
New York Times from October 2006 wrote:
In their push to win back control of the House, Democrats have turned to conservative and moderate candidates who fit the profiles of their districts more closely than the profile of the national party.
[...]
“My guess is that if Democrats are in the majority, it’s going to be because of these New Democrat, Blue Dog candidates out there winning in these competitive swing districts,” Representative Ron Kind of Wisconsin, co-chairman of a caucus of centrist House Democrats, said in an interview.
[...]
While Democratic leaders have gone to great lengths to promote the views of these candidates, some, like Mr. Shuler, have views on issues like gun control and abortion that are far out of step with the prevailing views of the Democrats who control the party. On some issues, they may even be expected to side with Republicans and the Bush White House.

Democratic officials said they did not set out with the intention of finding moderates to run. Instead, as they searched for candidates with the greatest possibility of winning against Republicans, they said, they wound up with a number who reflected more moderate views.

That was especially true in suburban areas and some rural districts, said Representative Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. “As a group, they are moderate in temperament and reformers in spirit,” Mr. Emanuel said.
Etc, etc... there's a wealth of evidence supporting the reason for the 2006 flip and it doesn't point to "They ran ultra-liberals". Fuck, I won't even claim lofty ideals for why they ran it that way. It was realpolitik, plain and simple, based around the notion that a gun-control supporting, abortion opposing Democrat who wins is worth far more than a gan-banning, pro-choicer who loses in those districts.

But, hey, once again I'm fine with the Republicans running their party like this. If you want to believe that it's everyone else who's wrong, I'm fine with that.

Edited, Apr 30th 2009 8:06pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#81 Apr 30 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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10,359 posts
Excellent, really? **** I was just trolling varuss Smiley: lol

Oh, I'm rating his posts up so they don't go unrated. Really it's a ***** to follow that conversation when they do.

Varuss, none of your money is hard earned. Your entire life is enabled through a collective hive of human will and human technology. You can try to get away from it as much as you can, but one monkey is no monkey, and you're still going to probably feel the taint (or blessing, rather) of the collective that exists to support you in any way that it can. Why would you want to be self responsible if you knew that your basic needs could be met elsewhere? You could turn your focus from struggling to survive to thriving. This is why we have art and culture and beauty and education and health care even.

None of us can survive on our own varuss, and it makes me sad enough that you refuse help on your own and try to suffice. Fine buddy that's your choice, but don't force it on everyone else. Stop paying your taxes and get off the grid and we will be here if you ever need us, just because I'm nice like that. The problem here, you see, is that you are not totally self sufficient, and require our aid on a daily basis. It's only fair that you give a little of that back when someone has a deadly fucking illness like leukemia
#82 Apr 30 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji, since I am practicing restraint recently, I will not be replying to any of your posts which address mine. Just letting you know so you don't have to waste your time.

Man I am such a nice person. See varrus? It's like that.

I always feel bad when I talk to you varrus, because as much as I disagree with your politics, you seem genuinely nice, and totally earnest in your views. Kinda sad really.
#83 Apr 30 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And the Republican leadership is? You're kidding, right?
Who said that? I noted that the climate in the party is increasing hostile towards moderates. Varrus tried to draw up comparisons to Pelosi and Reid.


I was following the general discussion which seemed to be saying that Republicans have lost the last two federal level elections because they were driving out moderates. Maybe I missed a memo, but that sure seemed to be what we were talking about.

I'm curious then *who* is driving these guys out? Varus' statement about Reid and Pelosi is a note that they are pretty darn radical (Pelosi more than Reid of course), so it's curious to argue that it's Republicans driving out moderates given the relative positioning of their leadership. And yes. I responded with the assumption of leaders being involved because the Dem leadership was mentioned. In the same way if I said that the captain of one football team was on steroids and you responded with "Yeah. But at least he didn't rape a cheerleader", I'd assume you were saying that the other teams captain raped a cheerleader. Maybe it was lost in translation, but that's certainly what you seemed to be saying.

Now if you want to argue that Dems have picked up votes by lying to people to make them think they have a more moderate agenda than they really do, you might get some agreement from me. And while you can certainly show this on a state and local level, most of the numerical pickups were with farther left wing folks Joph.

I remember in 2006, the Dem party seemed to be running nothing but former military who were now openly opposed to the war. So it's not quite like they were embracing a moderate position. Just running candidates who could be painted as more moderate than some granola eating guy living in his eco-friendly house and riding his bike to work every day.


So yeah. I'll grant you that they've put a facade of being more moderate out there. Heck. It's the same thing they did with Obama. He's one of the most far left presidential candidates we've seen in our lifetime (if not *the* most), yet his campaign constantly talked him up as a moderate who would unite the country, meet the Republicans half way, etc.

Some of us didn't buy it then, and still don't. But if that's what you mean when you say they're reaching out to moderates more than Republicans are, I think there's a bit of a problem...

Quote:
Nonsense. The 2006 election strategy revolved around finding moderate Democrats who could compete in red-leaning districts. This isn't even in question by folks who paid attention to it.


Lol. Wrong. They ran people who on paper appeared more moderate, but overwhelmingly the theme was anti-war/anti-bush.
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King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#84 Apr 30 2009 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
Vagina Dentata,
what a wonderful phrase
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30,106 posts
Here's the trouble, gbaji. Obama isn't far left. I'm far left. He's way to the right of me. The problem is that the republicans think the center is so far to the right of the political continuum of this country, they don't even understand the problems afflicting their own party. Your characterization of the situation definitely typifies some of the problem.
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#85 Apr 30 2009 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
hangtennow wrote:
Once a person is able to take care of themselves they will naturally want to help their neighbor.
And you would consider yourself able to take care of yourself?

I have to say, you sound like you would be the type of person that would naturally want to help your neighbour... Oh... Wait...

What was it you said about squeezing every penny and waiting for the economy to be at it's lowest so YOU could take advantage?

Real ******* neighbourly that.
#86 Apr 30 2009 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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10,359 posts
Quote:
What was it you said about squeezing every penny and waiting for the economy to be at it's lowest so YOU could take advantage?

Real @#%^ing neighbourly that.


It's the trouble with "realism"

It doesn't actually describe anything real, but labeling pessimism as realistic and repeating it enough can convince a lot of people that the world not only sucks, but necessarily sucks, and rather than try to fix it, we should fight amongst ourselves.
#87 Apr 30 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
Quote:
What was it you said about squeezing every penny and waiting for the economy to be at it's lowest so YOU could take advantage?

Real @#%^ing neighbourly that.


It's the trouble with "realism"

It doesn't actually describe anything real, but labeling pessimism as realistic and repeating it enough can convince a lot of people that the world not only sucks, but necessarily sucks, and rather than try to fix it, we should fight amongst ourselves.
We should? How do we start?
#88 Apr 30 2009 at 8:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm curious then *who* is driving these guys out?
The remains of an increasingly right-wing electorate. This isn't just my pet theory, it's becoming an increasingly common lament. This was the argument both Zogby and Rasmussen presented and if you want to pretend that Scott Rasmussen is quoting the Democratic party line, be my guest but try not to get upset when I'm laughing at you.
Quote:
And while you can certainly show this on a state and local level, most of the numerical pickups were with farther left wing folks Joph.
Ok... cite?
Anniston Star wrote:
The Blue Dogs are back big-time. Of the more than two dozen Democrats who knocked off sitting congressional Republicans on Tuesday, most if not all line up with the centrist Blue Dog Coalition, meaning these new congressmen will be to the right of their more liberal House leaders.
Do me a favor, when you respond, have some supporting information, okay? I'm really not interested in a response that relies on you saying "Lol. It's not like that but it's how I say it was".

Edit: Out of the 30 Republican seats to flip to the Democrats in the 2006 election, about half were filled by card carrying members of the Blue Dog Democrats. Some other number was filled by members of the New Democrat Coalition but I'm too lazy to sort through the overlap (NDC members make up about 25-30% of the House Democrats). And, of course, not all moderate Democrats belong to either group. Needless to say, "most of the numerical pickups were with farther left wing folks" is pretty inaccurate.

Edited, Apr 30th 2009 11:55pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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