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#27 Aug 03 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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For the tl;dr version -- The answers so far have been great, thanks.

Several people have mentioned China's large population. I wonder though if it is possible to understand how pervasive that influence is in a setting where 100,000 is considered a small village and there are at least 118 cities with a population of one million or more (39 have a population of two million or more). In contrast, the US has 9 cities with a population over one million, and only 4 with a population of two million or greater.

Vancar -- even the Chinese don't like to live in Wuhan; I've had students whose parents told them not to come home to Wuhan for breaks, that's how bad it is. Other places are considerably different. On the other points, it doesn't sound typical, but it is certainly plausible -- particularly because you were in Wuhan. Think of it as a bit like having stayed in East St. Louis.

Vancar wrote:
Even my GF, who has tons of reasons not to immigrate to the USA, was denied a visa because she "is a high risk of illegal immigration." It really is that bad.


She is female, with an American boyfriend. That's probably enough to flag her right there. Depending on how her interview went, it might be worth checking over her application and having her apply again.

Kavekk wrote:
there is no such thing as an orderly queue in China.

I ... I saw pictures once. It was in an ad for the Olympics that was being shown on a bus; the bus stopped and I was trampled by the Who concert style rush for the door. I have, however, read that once upon a time in China, men were required to wear orderly queues.

Goggy wrote:
the Tienanmen anniversary undid a lot of that good work.


OK, this is one of the points of contention that I just don't get. It is an international symbol, but far less of one for the Chinese I've talked to and many of them are aware of it. I don't want to seem confrontational, I'm just perplexed. Aside from the magic of the word "communist" how does that event remain such a hot button 20 years later, when so many other things seem to have faded or been ignored.

RedPhoenixxx wrote:
I'm sure it's changed a lot, especially places like Shangai.


It is like watching time lapse photography. You look, and there is a street lined with run down brick shops; you come back a month or two later and it has completely changed.

Kaolian wrote:
You only build aircraft carriers if you wish to project power long range, and you only attempt to match the nimitz class or the new ford class if you think you might go toe to toe with them.


Yep, this one is troubling. You've described the only safe way to view the situation. What worries me is that it might be one of the things Chinese do for face. The Olympics, WTO, Expo, space program and other things are seen as symbols that China has reached certain levels that are associated with powerful nations; they also allow massive investments that are arguably not a government subsidy. Unfortunately, military hardware is a different level of trouble and can't really be assumed to be harmless.

Elinda wrote:
.AND we wanted to believe in fortune cookies, we really did, but they let us down.


You will need to apply the latest patch. Instead of closing the reading of your fortune with "in bed" it should be read as "in bed with <item>". Each person must contemplate their internal energies and select the right item. Failure to select the correct item may result in misfortune. By opening your cookie you agree to release the baker from liability for any loss that might result. A replacement cookie can be obtained for twenty-five cents where not otherwise prohibited by law.







#28 Aug 03 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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what a wonderful phrase
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Also, this:

Vancar wrote:

I go... I live... I come back to Japan and thank Altana that I have hot water again.


That's quite a piece of Mooglefuckery there.
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#29 Aug 03 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Vancar wrote:
Elinda, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
Also, Chinese are intelligent but lack a sense of humor.Smiley: wink


Unfortunately, I don't think I can say I've encountered any nationality of people where I haven't been amazed by the ignorance of the general populace. Chinese included v.v
Not agreeing with you, or seeing things as you do, does not equal ignorance. This is a common misconception among the ignorant.
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#30 Aug 03 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rhodekylle wrote:
OK, this is one of the points of contention that I just don't get. It is an international symbol, but far less of one for the Chinese I've talked to and many of them are aware of it. I don't want to seem confrontational, I'm just perplexed. Aside from the magic of the word "communist" how does that event remain such a hot button 20 years later, when so many other things seem to have faded or been ignored.

Screenshot


Because that photo sums up everything folks think about when they consider an oppressive militaristic government suppressing the rights of the individual. Tiananmen Square is a powerful symbol because that image is a powerful symbol.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#31 Aug 03 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
Elinda, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
Vancar wrote:
Elinda, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
Also, Chinese are intelligent but lack a sense of humor.Smiley: wink


Unfortunately, I don't think I can say I've encountered any nationality of people where I haven't been amazed by the ignorance of the general populace. Chinese included v.v
Not agreeing with you, or seeing things as you do, does not equal ignorance. This is a common misconception among the ignorant.


I wasn't referring to people's opinions on anything. I was referring to academic ability on the college level.

Edit: Also, perhaps lack of knowledge of safe sex practices could be considered ignorance in my book. /shrug. I'm all about the safe sex.

Please don't call me ignorant before at least asking me what I mean. Trust me, if I'm being an jerk (other word seems to have gotten filtered), I encourage you to call me out on it.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 6:30pm by Vancar
#32 Aug 03 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Vancar wrote:
Elinda, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
Vancar wrote:
Elinda, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
Also, Chinese are intelligent but lack a sense of humor.Smiley: wink


Unfortunately, I don't think I can say I've encountered any nationality of people where I haven't been amazed by the ignorance of the general populace. Chinese included v.v
Not agreeing with you, or seeing things as you do, does not equal ignorance. This is a common misconception among the ignorant.


I wasn't referring to people's opinions on anything. I was referring to academic ability on the college level.

Please don't call me ignorant before at least asking me what I mean. Trust me, if I'm being an @#%^, I encourage you to call me out on it.
You made a sweeping generalization about the ignorance of 'general populations' everywhere. You can now qualify that statement anyway you want, but, it's still a very short-sighted 'ignorant' statement.
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#33 Aug 03 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
Rhodekylle wrote:
Vancar -- even the Chinese don't like to live in Wuhan; I've had students whose parents told them not to come home to Wuhan for breaks, that's how bad it is. Other places are considerably different. On the other points, it doesn't sound typical, but it is certainly plausible -- particularly because you were in Wuhan. Think of it as a bit like having stayed in East St. Louis.

Vancar wrote:
Even my GF, who has tons of reasons not to immigrate to the USA, was denied a visa because she "is a high risk of illegal immigration." It really is that bad.


She is female, with an American boyfriend. That's probably enough to flag her right there. Depending on how her interview went, it might be worth checking over her application and having her apply again.


Admitted, Wuhan is probably not the best way to establish a view of China. It's still scary that such a place exists, especially being the capital of the Hubei province.

She didn't mention me in her interview because she knew it would have her flagged v.v /sigh. Of course, a 3 minute interview isn't a whole lot to go on, but they told her that the reason she was denied was because she is too young. Apparently young people who go to the US want to immigrate.

Either way, she doesn't want to become a US citizen. She wants to take Japanese citizenship. Works out well.
#34 Aug 03 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
Elinda, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
You made a sweeping generalization about the ignorance of 'general populations' everywhere. You can now qualify that statement anyway you want, but, it's still a very short-sighted 'ignorant' statement.


I was about to respond, but I just realized that it's off topic for a thread about China. Also, it's 3:41 AM here in Osaka and I should really get to sleep. Should I feel up to it, I'll start an Asylum thread tomorrow concerning the nature of ignorance. Night.
#35 Aug 03 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
You made a sweeping generalization about the ignorance of 'general populations' everywhere. You can now qualify that statement anyway you want, but, it's still a very short-sighted 'ignorant' statement.


Ehhhh, I dunno. I would tend to agree that the mass of people in any given area are, overall, depressingly stupid. Individuals can rise above the herd; but the herd is still the herd.

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#36 Aug 03 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Ehhhh, I dunno. I would tend to agree that the mass of people in any given area are, overall, depressingly stupid. Individuals can rise above the herd; but the herd is still the herd.


Even when you gather a mass of relatively smart people together they tend to act pretty stupidly. Law of large numbers and all that.

---

Quote:
China is a world power and a major economic player. Their government is oppressive, though there are certainly far worse governments. I'm ignorant as to how the general Chinese populace feel about their government.


The Chinese Gov't has a rather effective propaganda machine, and while it's by no means foolproof it manages to influence the mindset of a large segment of the lower-mid echelons of their society. I've met many people there who genuinely like their gov't, most certainly a higher percentage of the populace than the U.S. can claim. One party elections are rather boring, but it does minimize productive energy lost to political turbulence. Unfortunately, with any system built like this it is very easy for the upper-class politically connected segments of society to abuse those they rule, leading to some frankly disgusting stuff. But, as I said they've got an effective PR team. (Qualifier: Obviously such abuse isn't limited to their system, it's incredibly pervasive in any indirect political system ) In the interests of fairness, it must be said that their gov't isn't all bad, they have been able to make some very big leaps in modernization in such a short period of time. ~10 short years ago city transit was mostly bikes, and now their cities resemble those of any other major power.
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#37 Aug 03 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
Ehhhh, I dunno. I would tend to agree that the mass of people in any given area are, overall, depressingly stupid. Individuals can rise above the herd; but the herd is still the herd.


As Vimes would say, "as soon as you saw people as things to be measured, they didn't measure up." It's a slight misapplication, but I can't think of anything better to post. Except this picture, maybe, though it's kind of tangential. Pretty funny, though. Unless you haven't seen the root comic, in which case I guess it isn't.

Annabella - OR SHOULD I SAY MONTY PYTHON? wrote:
Humphrey: Now two boys have been found rubbing linseed oil into the school cormorant. Now some of you may feel that the cormorant does not play an important part in the life of the school, but I would remind you that it was presented to us by the corporation of the Town of Sudbury to commemorate Empire Day, when we try to remember the names of all those from the Sudbury area who so gallantly gave their lives to keep China British. So from now on, the cormorant is strictly OUT OF BOUNDS. Oh and Jenkins? Apparently your mother died this morning. Chaplain?


You've got to admit that Britain did a better job with Hong Kong than the Chinese did with the rest of China.
#38 Aug 03 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Elinda wrote:
You made a sweeping generalization about the ignorance of 'general populations' everywhere. You can now qualify that statement anyway you want, but, it's still a very short-sighted 'ignorant' statement.


Ehhhh, I dunno. I would tend to agree that the mass of people in any given area are, overall, depressingly stupid. Individuals can rise above the herd; but the herd is still the herd.



You don't think that the mass of people is necessarily, definitionally, average?
#39 Aug 03 2009 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
It depends if you're looking it from a particular point of reference or relative to humanity in general. I don't see anything wrong with looking down on the teeming, filthy masses from the peaks of one's own brilliance, personally.
#40 Aug 03 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Exactly!

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#41 Aug 03 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Usually we can't hear their cries over the sound of our own arrogance.

It's a good noise filter.
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#42 Aug 03 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Usually we can't hear their cries over the sound of our own arrogance.

It's a good noise filter.


Just don't refer to it as "white noise".

Trust me on this.

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#43 Aug 03 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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I guess I'm just not in the right mood today to denounce large swathes of humanity. Rain check?
#44 Aug 03 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
I guess I'm just not in the right mood today to denounce large swathes of humanity. Rain check?


Sure. I'm not worried - you'll develop a healthy, cheerful cynicism one of these days.

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#45 Aug 03 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sure. I'm not worried - you'll develop a healthy, cheerful cynicism one of these days.


Or quietly fade out into the static.
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#46 Aug 03 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
It's true, I often struggle to hear people over the sound of how awesome I am.
#47 Aug 04 2009 at 5:56 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
It's true, I often struggle to hear people over the sound of how awesome I am.
Switch to Verizon.

Can ya hear me now?
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#48 Aug 04 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
So I have some personal experience with Chinese students. I have an advanced degree in a science area. There were Chinese students in our department. They were all very, very good students. They scored very, very high on the exams used to judge entrance to our department. I got along very well with them. However, it was a difficult program of study and most people did not finish. There are departments (not mine!) in which a strict cutoff is used and X% of all admitted students will be failed out. In such cases, you can imagine there is some resentment. It is misfounded, of course.

Further, having hung out at Universities for a long time, I overhear a lot of complaints against various faculty due to unintelligibility. While not unique to the Chinese faculty, these complains seem more prevalent about Chinese faculty.

With politics, I can only give my personal take:

1. The most startling fact about China is the scale on which it's economy is growing and the degree to which a significant fraction of the total human population on Earth is escaping poverty. Amazing.

2. China is not a very politically free country. If we are to very roughly divide the world's people into "free" and "not free" in terms of political freedom (and nothing more then that) then I think it is safe to put China's population into the latter category. And generally, for example, India's population would fall into the former. In fact, glancing over the list of most populace nations, I think it is likely most (or at least nearly most) of the people in the "not free" category are in China.

I'm no expert, but here is my inexpert take on matters: There is no clear path for China to complete freedom in a short time. The parallel model would be the soviet union and now Russia. It is not clear how free Russia is right now, politically, and undoubtedly there was great strife getting even to this point. It seems China is going slow. If there is a solid free economy, problems similar to those of the Soviet Union might be avoided. I really don't know the intent of China's rulers.

3. So the US has huge debt (due to cutting taxes and waging wars and other vast spending on the military). And a good little chunk of this is owned by China, the EU, Canada, etc. Since any large scale military action is going to require lending, these lenders effectively have veto power over US actions. But in the case of the vast majority of the debt, it is owned by individuals, not governments, and it would be difficult to see them dumping all their debt in hopes that the US will be unable to finance a war effort. China is the exception to that - not that I think China will, or that the US will give them cause to do so.

The real solution is for the US to pull way back, after of course stabilizing Iraq and Afghanistan. Defense spending is just way too high and our allies should pick up the slack, or just allow far less total world military spending. Of course, our allies do not speak with a unified voice and this is a good thing! Tragic mistakes such as invading Iraq under false pretense were seen through by so many of our close allies (Canada, France, Germany spring to mind) and requiring more nations to get aggressive military action going will ultimately end or at least suppress future military misadventures.

#49 Aug 05 2009 at 12:59 AM Rating: Default
Huh... did an Admin delete my thread on stupidity/ignorance? Where did it go? XD
#50 Aug 05 2009 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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I think it got sub-defaulted, alter your filter settings at the top if you want to try and resurrect it.
#51 Aug 05 2009 at 1:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Vancar wrote:
Huh... did an Admin delete my thread on stupidity/ignorance? Where did it go? XD
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=4&mid=1249363170100583289&num=38&page=1

You posted a quote with the single word "Discuss" as your post. It got Sub-Defaulted.
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