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#52 Aug 05 2009 at 1:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Also, 1 in 5 person in the world is Chinese. So it's hard not to make sweepingly stupid generaliations when talking about China.

When I was there, I stayed about 3 weeks and it was nowhere near enough. It felt like we only saw a glimpse of a place, at most. I was there with a friend, and we did get a lot of attention in the street, especially in smaller villages, but it was entirely positive. The only "bad vibe" we got was during that football game on Tienanmen square. One of the kids against us was overtly physical. He'd shoulder charge us, and stick his leg out, a bit aggressive but nothing awful. At some point we tangled for the ball, and he kinda fell over my leg. I held my hand out to help him up, and he kinda slapped it away. And that was pretty much it. He shook our hand at the end of the game. He clearly didn't like us, simply cos we were foreigners, but it was one of 20. And one tiny insignificant incident in 3 weeks is really not that much.
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#53 Aug 05 2009 at 2:00 AM Rating: Decent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Also, 1 in 5 person in the world is Chinese. So it's hard not to make sweepingly stupid generaliations when talking about China.

When I was there, I stayed about 3 weeks and it was nowhere near enough. It felt like we only saw a glimpse of a place, at most. I was there with a friend, and we did get a lot of attention in the street, especially in smaller villages, but it was entirely positive. The only "bad vibe" we got was during that football game on Tienanmen square. One of the kids against us was overtly physical. He'd shoulder charge us, and stick his leg out, a bit aggressive but nothing awful. At some point we tangled for the ball, and he kinda fell over my leg. I held my hand out to help him up, and he kinda slapped it away. And that was pretty much it. He shook our hand at the end of the game. He clearly didn't like us, simply cos we were foreigners, but it was one of 20. And one tiny insignificant incident in 3 weeks is really not that much.


Maybe he was just competitive? Rugby is 80 minutes of physical sport, it is only at the end do I congratulate someone for a good punch.
#54 Aug 05 2009 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
Goggy wrote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Also, 1 in 5 person in the world is Chinese. So it's hard not to make sweepingly stupid generaliations when talking about China.

When I was there, I stayed about 3 weeks and it was nowhere near enough. It felt like we only saw a glimpse of a place, at most. I was there with a friend, and we did get a lot of attention in the street, especially in smaller villages, but it was entirely positive. The only "bad vibe" we got was during that football game on Tienanmen square. One of the kids against us was overtly physical. He'd shoulder charge us, and stick his leg out, a bit aggressive but nothing awful. At some point we tangled for the ball, and he kinda fell over my leg. I held my hand out to help him up, and he kinda slapped it away. And that was pretty much it. He shook our hand at the end of the game. He clearly didn't like us, simply cos we were foreigners, but it was one of 20. And one tiny insignificant incident in 3 weeks is really not that much.


Maybe he was just competitive? Rugby is 80 minutes of physical sport, it is only at the end do I congratulate someone for a good punch.


Could be, I do however think there's a difference between competitiveness (sp?) and being an *******. I once shot a hockey ball in someone's face on accident, and I'm quite positive he was just being really mad instead of competitive. At least, trying to hit me with a hockey stick isn't really in the spirit of competition.
#55 Aug 05 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Bertuz the Irrelevant wrote:
Goggy wrote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Also, 1 in 5 person in the world is Chinese. So it's hard not to make sweepingly stupid generaliations when talking about China.

When I was there, I stayed about 3 weeks and it was nowhere near enough. It felt like we only saw a glimpse of a place, at most. I was there with a friend, and we did get a lot of attention in the street, especially in smaller villages, but it was entirely positive. The only "bad vibe" we got was during that football game on Tienanmen square. One of the kids against us was overtly physical. He'd shoulder charge us, and stick his leg out, a bit aggressive but nothing awful. At some point we tangled for the ball, and he kinda fell over my leg. I held my hand out to help him up, and he kinda slapped it away. And that was pretty much it. He shook our hand at the end of the game. He clearly didn't like us, simply cos we were foreigners, but it was one of 20. And one tiny insignificant incident in 3 weeks is really not that much.


Maybe he was just competitive? Rugby is 80 minutes of physical sport, it is only at the end do I congratulate someone for a good punch.


Could be, I do however think there's a difference between competitiveness (sp?) and being an @#%^. I once shot a hockey ball in someone's face on accident, and I'm quite positive he was just being really mad instead of competitive. At least, trying to hit me with a hockey stick isn't really in the spirit of competition.


True, but you get away with what you can. Sometimes I do it to purposely rile someone into stepping over the line, it's ******, but it's all in the game.
#56 Aug 05 2009 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
I thought we were talking about football?
#57 Aug 05 2009 at 2:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
I thought we were talking about football?


I'm never talking about football Smiley: mad
#58 Aug 05 2009 at 3:18 AM Rating: Good
Really? When I was in China, I constantly got people staring at me and yelling at their friends, "外国人!看!看!" "A foreigner! Look! Look!"

Luckily, I was able to yell back at them 不要看! "Don't look!" which, although probably sounds slightly odd, got the point across that I didn't want to be stared at just because I was a mostly white dude living in a Chinese hotel.

Other incidents involved Chinese people constantly telling me that the US was mean to China... like, to the point to where I just told them I didn't want to talk about it.

Oh, and thanks to those who told me about the sub-defaulting.
#59REDACTED, Posted: Aug 05 2009 at 3:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't really care about the state of China. Not my problem, not my business. I don't see much of a point in discussing the internal affairs of the country with citizens anyway, as they aren't in much of a position to change it. I would like to visit China, mostly because I've heard there's a certain group with a lot of interest in the US, and I imagine it would be pretty easy to take advantage of that and have frivolous sex with a lot of Chinese women. I don't really feel comfortable visiting a country without speaking the language though, and I already have enough trouble keeping my English and Spanish separate.
#60REDACTED, Posted: Aug 05 2009 at 3:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't really care about the state of China. Not my problem, not my business. I don't see much of a point in discussing the internal affairs of the country with citizens anyway, as they aren't in much of a position to change it. I would like to visit China, mostly because I've heard there's a certain group with a lot of interest in the US, and I imagine it would be pretty easy to take advantage of that and have frivolous sex with a lot of Chinese women. I don't really feel comfortable visiting a country without speaking the language though, and I already have enough trouble keeping my English and Spanish separate.
#61 Aug 05 2009 at 3:32 AM Rating: Good
watew wrote:
I imagine it would be pretty easy to take advantage of that and have frivolous sex with a lot of Chinese women.


Unfortunately, this is true in both China and Japan v.v "Exotic" foreigner syndrome. In Japan, we call them Gaijin-lovers.
#62REDACTED, Posted: Aug 05 2009 at 3:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Unfortunately?
#63 Aug 05 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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Vancar wrote:
I didn't want to be stared at just because I was a mostly white dude living in a Chinese hotel.

The problem was more that you were a mostly white dude living in a really low class Chinese hotel. Chinese still care about mianzi and it sounds like you did not score well in that game. You may have accidentally given the impression you were slumming to meet with a lady of negotiable virtue ... the first conclusion a friend jumped to when hearing the story.

Jophiel wrote:
Tiananmen Square is a powerful symbol because that image is a powerful symbol.


True, and more powerful if one remembers what that year was like. It made a stark contrast to the fall of the Berlin Wall. For all of that, it was twenty years ago. In diplomatic circles, human rights are an important issue and need to be addressed; however, there isn't much a visiting student can do to rectify events that took place when they were 2 years old (or yet unborn).

yossarian wrote:
China is not a very politically free country.


Fair enough, but why would you say China not and India is? Consider:

Timelordwho wrote:
I've met many people there who genuinely like their gov't, most certainly a higher percentage of the populace than the U.S. can claim.


RedPhoenixxx wrote:
it's hard not to make sweeping ... generalizations when talking about China.

It is hard not to because the numbers make it sound like it should be uniform. Statistics like saying 90% of the population is Han don't account for the fact that Guangdong is quite different from Heilongjiang.





#64 Aug 05 2009 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rhodekylle wrote:
For all of that, it was twenty years ago.

Have things changed any? Can students hold pro-democracy rallies there today?

If no, 20 years ago was yesterday.
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#65 Aug 05 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Have things changed any? Can students hold pro-democracy rallies there today?


If you mean in Tiananmen, probably not; it is simply too large a venue. The government has been a bit touchy about students gathering there since a million of them kicked off the Cultural Revolution.

If you mean to ask if students, and others, can gather and protest -- yes, I've seen it. One of my daughters (gan nu'er) was involved in protests that nearly closed her school, and she still graduated with honors. Protesting unfair treatment is nearly a national hobby, and it is often effective.

Oddly, just after you posted the picture I had lunch with a guy who was part of that event. He's quite passionate about it, but he disagrees with the portrayal of it as a pro-democracy rally. He says that people were there for many different reasons. He considers it a Beijing phenomenon and says that even people from other parts of China don't really understand it because they weren't there.

Things have changed in 20 years. I have taught US Constitutional Law here, using a standard (US) college text, to law students (including a number of party members) at a national university. Content was not censored or controlled and there were some good discussions.

In fairness, can students in the US stage rallies like they did at the time of Kent State (and another iconic photo)? How about the UK, can we be sure there won't be another Bloody Sunday? How many in Illinois remember the Haymarket incident? Is the Bonus Army and how it was dispersed anything but a footnote in history books now? In short, are things really better anywhere?

#66 Aug 05 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The government has been a bit touchy about students gathering there since a million of them kicked off the Cultural Revolution.


Wasn't the Cultural Revolution a good thing, though? Or has that history been revised.

Yes, students can protest in the U.S. There have certainly been protests since Kent State.

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#67 Aug 05 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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In short, are things really better anywhere?


Heh, yes.
#68 Aug 05 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Wasn't the Cultural Revolution a good thing, though? Or has that history been revised.

Yes, students can protest in the U.S. There have certainly been protests since Kent State.


No, it is actually used as an example of the dangers of a cult of personality, although much of the blame is laid on Lin Biao and the "Gang of Four". The Red Guard were broken up, in many cases through violent confrontations with the PLA.

Student protests? You are, of course, correct to remind me that Kent State sparked a round of protests, but everything else that I can recall has been fairly tame -- "with a permit, in a designated area, not too close to anything important." I've been out of the country for a while, what have we had in the last 20 years that would compare? That's an honest question and not intended as sarcasm.
#69 Aug 05 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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I dunno! I haven't been in or around college campuses.

The impression I get is that apathy is a much bigger barrier to protest than oppression, though.

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#70 Aug 05 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rhodekylle wrote:
In fairness, can students in the US stage rallies like they did at the time of Kent State (and another iconic photo)?

Can a few thousand people get together to protest a war? Absolutely. Look at the Iraq war rallies. For that matter, it's widely considered that the National guardsmen were wrong in the Kent State incident.
Quote:
How many in Illinois remember the Haymarket incident?

Beats me. Plenty? Enough? No one? (Well, I know of them). Why are you dismissing Tiananmen Square because it was 20 years ago and invoking an incident from the 1800s? Changes in labor laws have made it so there's no need for hundreds of thousands of union supporters to strike here in Chicago these days but we had an immigration rally here of nearly a half million in 2006 which wasn't blocked or suppressed.

You're asking why that photo and that event still stirs people against China and I'm telling you. You can say that it's not fair or whatever but it's the simple fact of it. If China has changed in the past 20 years, they've done a remarkably poor job of letting anyone else know because, to most, it sounds like the same ole place it was in 1989, if not a scarier, modernized version of the same oppressive government. Hell, even the commentary on the Olympics ceremonies here in the States seemed to often center on mechanical, robotic like displays of perfection. Faceless automatons just like the tanks in that photo.

Edited, Aug 5th 2009 12:53pm by Jophiel
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#71 Aug 05 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, well, yeah. There have been tons of protests off campus.

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#72 Aug 05 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Oh, well, yeah. There have been tons of protests off campus.

Main point being that there's a feeling in the US that you can gather, even in groups of hundreds of thousands, without fear that a column of tanks will be coming down your street.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#73 Aug 05 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Rhodekylle wrote:
Is the Bonus Army and how it was dispersed anything but a footnote in history books now? In short, are things really better anywhere?



The bonus army, ww1 vets who were peacefully protesting during the great Depression, to get some of their military pay that wasn't going to be paid out for a few more years, to help alleviate economic circumstances. The American military reacted violently towards not just the men but their families as well who were in the camps, protesting peacefully.

Also, we "repatriated" Latinos to Mexico to "cure" the great depression - some didnt speak Spanish and many weren't allowed to bring their identification which would allow them to eventually return.

Some schools teach this information, many do not. I only recently became educated in these events due having a wonderful history professor. Growing up in Pennsylvania, we only really focused on the history of the 13 colonies - a history that was very sugarcoated.

for the sake of fairness, I think ever nation in the world has had their fair share of outrageous human rights violations. I haven't been to China (yet) so I don't rightfully know how the people are,what the believe - all I know is what the news portrays and because of that, I reserve my judgment.

In your original post you hinted that your students had been treated poorly in America. May I ask where (what state) and what happened?
#74 Aug 05 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
Oh, well, yeah. There have been tons of protests off campus.

Main point being that there's a feeling in the US that you can gather, even in groups of hundreds of thousands, without fear that a column of tanks will be coming down your street.


Yeah, agreed.

Now if you can only get that many people to care about something besides "American Idol".

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#75 Aug 05 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
Oh, well, yeah. There have been tons of protests off campus.

Main point being that there's a feeling in the US that you can gather, even in groups of hundreds of thousands, without fear that a column of tanks will be coming down your street.


Yeah, agreed.

Now if you can only get that many people to care about something besides "American Idol".


FAT TAX!

I can't imagine the government sending out tanks if all of our obese citizens turned out to protest the fat tax but I could definitely see a bunch of bulldozers.
#76 Aug 05 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
Oh, well, yeah. There have been tons of protests off campus.

Main point being that there's a feeling in the US that you can gather, even in groups of hundreds of thousands, without fear that a column of tanks will be coming down your street.


Yeah, agreed.

Now if you can only get that many people to care about something besides "American Idol".
Oh Oh, I heard Paula Abdul quit AI!!.










Edited, Aug 5th 2009 8:20pm by Elinda
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