Hate Crimes Bill signedFollow

Maybe not so much from gays, but I sure as hell do have to worry about being murdered by racist blacks, just as much as black people should worry about being murdered by racist whites.

It is very presumptuous that you assume I am from a lilly white neighborhood. I grew up in the poor section of town just outside of Philly - so I was exposed to / thrown in with all kinds of people of mixed beliefs and races, and I have had my fair share of discrimination thrown at me.

As an example, I was once walking home from school when three people - two black kids and a white kid - approached me. They were MUCH bigger than I was, and there was no way I was running due to carrying a $1k instrument that I wasnt about to leave behind. Anyway, they easily catch up to me and the black kids start going through my backpack and pockets looking through money. they destroyed a few things in my bookbag because I was poor and had no money on me (guess they didnt realize how much a saxophone is worth), and the only reason they stopped is because I recognized the white kid and could ID them. Naturally, the next day at school I turned them in, and their defense was "he called me the N word (but actually said it)." Fortunately, I had a clean record, the other three kids had a long history, and I was a goofy kid with a sax who couldnt possibly intimidate anyone, so it turned out the school administrators justly found that kid to be lying and I wasnt slandered with being racist. I took it to the cops, and the detective told me the kid was part of a gang; and that if I were to press charges, my life would have been in danger.

I got off relatively easy, but not all of my friends were so lucky. One of them was with 2-3 other friends coming out of a bar. They left the bar and one of them was waaaayyyy ahead of the rest. A black guy sucker punched the one ahead - not knowing the others were behind - and started going through his wallet. The others saw what happened and caught up and started fighting. Since it was Philly and cops are all over the bar district, a cop quickly saw it and arrested my friend and his friends - and let the mugger go, because he claimed he was jumped. Fast forward a few months later, while the "hate crime" trial (and yes, hate crime charges were brought) was going on the guy mugged a 16 year old in the same fashion but it was dismissed as evidence - which should have proved that my friend defending his friend from being mugged was not motivated by a hate crime. Now this hate crime is permanently on their record, all because a black guy tried to mug a white guy without realizing his friends were 200 feet behind him. This is one of the big reasons I am not behind hate crime laws, because I have personally seen them be used when there was absolutely no reason to, and my friend was convicted of it just for being white.

One of my other friends was beat within an inch of his life just for being white in a black neighborhood - the only way he got out with his life was he claimed he had AIDs and spit blood all over a few of their faces.

Another one of my friends was told - while walking through a black neighborhood -he "doesnt belong there" and to "leave now whitey."

Another one of my friends was almost beat within an inch of his life by black kids wanting to beat up a white kid; ironically, a black drug dealer who knew my friend and liked him scared them away with a gun.

So to say me - or straight white males - arent the ones who "have to worry" about just walking down the street while white and have never "had to live it" is way of the mark, because I sure have. Maybe there are parts of the country where that is true, but its certainly not in and around Philadelphia.

And, just to throw in an example about gay people hating, the guy who sits in front of me at work used to work for a gay man who owned the company. he actually, in some bizarre move, took out pregnancy being covered in his health plan and told people it was because he didnt want to support heterosexuals. My friend soon quit and the business went under. That kind of situation is rare, but it can happen and has happened.

And fortunately I realize that most black people - or gay, or asian, or muslim, or whatever - are just looking to live, dont want any trouble, and are productive members of society; unfortunately, after some of their experiences, some of my friends dont think that to be the case.

I am also fortunate (or unfortunate if you cant make lemonade) because I have been exposed to the idea that non-white, non-straight, non-male people can be just as racist, sexist, or heterophobic than the whitest grand dragon.

Lets be real. You assumed that since I was a straight white guy, I have never had to live in fear based off the fact that I was straight or white. It was way off base, but thats the problem: when it comes to discrimination, most people wont even entertain the fact that hate crimes are just as rampant in minorities and that the white guy is always the perpetrator or the guy who "just doesnt understand." Idiocy isnt just contained in straight white people.


Edited, Oct 29th 2009 8:14am by ManifestOfKujata

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 8:15am by ManifestOfKujata

Guess that's why they keep committing hate crimes, eh?

Dont you see the problem with that though? Why should I be laughed at if I am discriminated against? Hate crime should be a serious crime, and should be used when one race is using race to intimidate another. Using a racially charged excuse - saying "he called me the N-word" when you are lying to weasel your way out of being charged with attempted robbery - is a hate crime. If he was believed, I could have been charged with a hate crime and my reputation would have been damaged forever.

I know you see that, and I am not disagreeing with you, but your "you'll probably get laughed at" comment is at the heart of the issue: a discrimination crime against a white guy isnt taken as seriously. Thats one of the main reasons I feel hate crime litigation wont work for our country just yet, because as a country we would laugh at a white guy making that claim.

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 8:44am by ManifestOfKujata

I disagree. Because of errors, it should not be implemented? While it might not work as well for white folks, I honestly don't believe that we're the victims of hate crimes anywhere near as often as other groups. I agree it would be better if a mugger got a few extra years because he attacked you simply due to your race; but odds are his primary motive was your money. Putting a homophobe behind bars for several extra years because he attacked a guy couple simply for holding hands SHOULD happen.

I guess what I mean is, I agree, it isn't a perfect system. But it provides extra protection for some. Just because you might not get as much from it as other groups doesn't mean it shouldn't be signed into law. It just means we have a ways to go. There's no doubt in my mind that this is a darn good first step.

I can see your point, and I agree - maybe we shouldnt hold back because it isnt perfect. However, we should also be taking steps to eliminate the thought that ony straight whites can commit these crimes. That would probably ease any clouds around an imperfect system.

Racism is a multi-layered problem, which has to be adressed from my different angles by all parties involved. And hell, part of my motivation for wanting it to end is, as a white guy, is I am tired of being lumped in with rednecks. Pennsylvania is a weird place, we are a blue state and we have many progressive ideas and programs, but we also have one of the highest concentrations of the KKK.

EDIT: If I may ask, where do you live?

DOUBLE EDIT: Heh, Actually read the bottom of your posting. What is Gainseville like?


Edited, Oct 29th 2009 9:18am by ManifestOfKujata

Well, at least one of the perpetrators (maybe all, I don't know) of the beating Reginald Denny (the white fella who got beaten by 4 black guys in the wake of the Rodney King trial) was convicted of attempted murder. That was a racially driven attack so I think it qualifies as a hate crime.

Grew up in MA, went to college in DE, work in FL. Gainesville is an interesting mix. It's a college town (city? We have 40,000 students), and one of the biggest party schools in the country. There are all sorts of folks around here; more minorities than at UDel, but still predominantly white. Get a good mix of rednecks and academics; cars have stickers ranging from "Coexist" in religious symbols to "JESUS IS LORD" all over their back window; from "Obama '08" to "OUR GOVERNMENT IS RUN BY LIARS" (saw that yesterday and laughed).

Overall it's a pretty good cross-section of cultures, with the common thread being intoxication and youth. I enjoy it.

Plus our football beats the **** out of Tennessee's. Looking at you, Varus.

Yeah, they were rightly charged with attempted murder, but were they charged with a hate crime as well? That is the crux.

Well, again, the problem seems to be that people won't press charges for that, not that it can't be done.

I understand your point, but it seems silly to me. The laws are there. It's not a problem with the law if the prosecutors don't take advantage of it.

Also, you might consider that these lawyers know what they're doing. Perhaps being convicted of attempted murder carries a heavier sentence than a hate crime, so that's why they chose that.

This, too.

A lot of Majestic's examples were simply crimes, but not necessarily racially motivated crimes.

Not every crime involving perpetrators and victims of different races is a hate crime. Was there any evidence that made you think this was a hate crime, other than the races of those involved?

Either way, good to get these thugs off the street. That whole story is just horrendous.

The Reginald Denney case clearly WAS a hate crime, in my opinion. I wondered why it wasn't prosecuted as such. I have to assume it was due to the somewhat explosive political climate in L.A. at the time.

Still, it seems cowardly to avoid confronting all the issues.

Nope, sorry. It can be prosecuted as such if there's reason to believe it is - if racial epithets are used, for example, or racist symbols like burning crosses and what not.

The prosecution may or may not be successful, of course. /shrug