Tory proposals for a sovereignty bill ..Follow

The sovereignty bill is a joke. Lisbon has now committed us, irreversably, to playing a key role in European poliics, economics and foreign policy. (About bloody time). Cameron's promise commits us to opposing stuff that can now never happen.

It is a bill proposing that if we ever go back in time, Cameron will undo Brown's decisions.

As for labour being dead - they're unlikely to win the next election, but Cameron's strength of a united party has been blown out of the water.

Don't forget that the main reason new Labour won in 1997 wasn't through their policies (like Cameron now, back then they had none). They won because the pro-EU tories did such a great job of discrediting the Eurosceptics, and vice versa. Tories made a better job of slagging off the tories than Bliar did.

Prepare to watch the tory in-fighting rise to new levels

I think you missunderstand what I would like. Ireland had a referendum for a reason, it was in their constitution. I would like the same requirement for our government.
Question for you, would the mainstream UK public be more bought into Europe if the issues had been bought into the open and discussed fully? A referendum would have forced all issues out, myths to be put to bed and the real hard issues to a public who would be listening.

Recent history is all a missed opportunity to educate the public (And before you say anything, that includes me)



I did say, best of a bad bunch.



Nonesense. Labour won in 1997 after they barely lost 1992 before. They had Blair, the successor to John Smith, who made Labour electable with the changing of Clause IV. The electorate of the time still remembered the winter of discontent and these reformist actions gave confidence in Labour. Who was it that said the trouble the tories had with labour was that they took up the traditionally Tory right position?



I'm not saying you are wrong, I just wish to point out that Labour has enough of that too ...

No.



Not a chance.



Haha, no.



Hahahahahahahahahahaha...

No.

You don't seriously think the UK is capable of having an honest debate about Europe with a Tory government and tabloids like the Sun and the Mail, do you?

It's kind of amusing, because the Lisbon Treaty will make virtually 0 difference to the lives of ordinary British citizens, and yet it's heralded as the second coming of the four horsemen of the third apocalypse.

And that Jeremy Clarkson column was pants. I wish he could find a place to live far far away from the UK, it would give us all a nice break.

****.

I don't. The level of debate about Europe is tabloid standards. Most people don't have the foggiest about what is going on, what powers Europe has, the legislative process, the subsidiarity principle, or pretty much anything else substantial.

If people were told the EU was planning to make them every European speak French, many would believe it. It's a disgrace, but this state of affairs suits many people. Europe is a great scapegoat. It pushes the right buttons in terms of rallying people around some modern version of small-minded nationalism. It's the perfect enemy of the right: governmental, bureaucratic and foreign. It's also a sore reminder that England is not an Empire anymore, and needs to be part of Europe in order to have some sort of influence in the world.

So no, I don't think there can be a rational and objective debate public debate any time soon.



I was referring to Jeremy Clarkson

It's tactical. If we were to have a referendum today about the EU in the UK, the pro-Europeans would lose it, almost regardless of the question asked. Even if the question was "Do you want to stay in the EU", it would be a close call.

A referendum on Lisbon would be lost for sure. A referendum on joining the Euro, same. The mood of the country is currently far too anti-Europe, and no amount of rational debate would change that. The only time where a referendum could've worked was in the late 90s, jsut after NuLabour had gotten in power. But today? It's political suicide. Who would make the pro-European case? Labour, the most unpopular government in decades? The BBC, whose very existence is threatened? The Indy, which is probably gonna close? The Lib-Dems, who nobody gives a **** about?

Secondly, I think you're a tiny bit naive with regards to what the debate would be. When they had the referendums in Ireland, the "No" camp was outright lying. They said that Lisbon would mean abortion and euthanasia would be come legal in Ireland, and that taxes would be decided in Brussels. Unless yuo have bags of cash and committed politicians and isntitutions to actively fight agaisnt this stuff, you're gonna lose. Which is what happened the first time in Ireland.

The Sovereignty Bill and the current debate around Lisbon is a perfect example of this. It's 100% ********* If every country in Europe did this, the EU would never, ever progress since you'll never have 27 referendums coming out with the same result.

It's a shame, because the debate is really interesting. The future of the EU is ridiculously important for the UK. But instead of trying to make it work, the Tories are going to spend the next 5-10 years trying to sabotage their only chance to have a meaningful voice on the interntional stage. And no referendum is going to change this.

Damn it, you need to exercise your clicking finger somehow.

How encouraging of you to dismiss someone would listen to debate

What this says to me. Is that you would rather be a superior shmuck, looking down on the general populace of the UK rather than convince by the sheer force of evidence. It seems to me that rather than convince the population, the parties would rather ignore the topic, delay decisions and let us slip and slide into Europe ever the reluctant member.

What I am looking for is a way to educate and encourage. That starts by sections of the political machine being exemplars. I do wonder, what image would you set for someone who is scared of the Treaty of Lisbon?

And I have read the Treaty, you *******.

Thank you to Redphoenixxx for a reasoned answer, looking at the real problem. A handsome, charming frenchman. You do your member state credit

Let me quote myself in my follow up response as you chose to ignore my point.





Thank you, you just summed up why any of the UK public feel they are being treated right now. You sound like a politican. Contrary to your opinion I beleive it is the duty of the government to educate and share information in the way our country is governed, or it intends us to be governed in the future.



What group? I see no one else contributing here except Red.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 8:59pm by GwynapNud

True (despite a B- for Latinate English from captain pedant here)

And Yes Gwyn the Gubberment (not me) has a duty to ejamacate and inform. If you've read the various briefings published by the FCO you'd either be quoting them, or using tabloid/tory counter-arguments, instead of regurgitating non-sequitur nonsense from the Express & Mail.