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Tory proposals for a sovereignty bill ..Follow

#1 Nov 08 2009 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
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It is a near certainty that the Tories will be the next UK government. David Cameron being the UK Prime minister in waiting.

Having seen the Lisbon Treaty passed without the promised referendums he is promising a sovereignty bill.
They key part of this bill is that in the future, a referendum would be required before any powers are ceeded to an external body.

I am not convinced. This may just be spin (Potentially vote winning spin, but spin nonetheless). If he did the pass law, I for one would be grateful. I would like any government to be held to coming to the nation. The incumbant Labour government have shown with every action of Browns tenure that they will avoid asking the nation at any cost.

Labour truly are dead. Another nail in the coffin. One does wonder where the rot will stop. I truly adore the FoI act Smiley: nod

Quote:
Chris Grayling, the shadow home secretary, said: “This is shaping up to become one of the major political scandals of recent times. Ministers quite clearly broke the law and deliberately misled the public to cover up a policy which most reasonable people would say was utterly irresponsible.”


As the months pass, and the lame duck of Brown waddles to his magnificent defeat in the polls. I worry for the UK. I may end up voting Tory (I am a life long Liberal Democrat), if nothing else to ensure we are rid of Brown and his brood. I need a fresh set of cronies who might, just might, for a short year or two actually have some ideals and work for me and remember the sense of hunger for power. Not these fat, idle, 'entitled' dictators as Labour appear to be.
I'm saddened I may need vote for the best candidate in a very poor selection. Does anyone else in the UK feel the same way? And what do you think of the sovereignty bill?

Finally, I'll leave you with some Clarkson. His column is a wonderful hangover cure. I was giggling so much.
#2 Nov 08 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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The sovereignty bill is a joke. Lisbon has now committed us, irreversably, to playing a key role in European poliics, economics and foreign policy. (About bloody time). Cameron's promise commits us to opposing stuff that can now never happen.

It is a bill proposing that if we ever go back in time, Cameron will undo Brown's decisions. Smiley: oyvey

As for labour being dead - they're unlikely to win the next election, but Cameron's strength of a united party has been blown out of the water.

Don't forget that the main reason new Labour won in 1997 wasn't through their policies (like Cameron now, back then they had none). They won because the pro-EU tories did such a great job of discrediting the Eurosceptics, and vice versa. Tories made a better job of slagging off the tories than Bliar did.

Prepare to watch the tory in-fighting rise to new levels Smiley: lol
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#3 Nov 08 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
I really don't know why I continue to click on threads I know damn well I'm not going to read.
#4 Nov 08 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Nobby wrote:
The sovereignty bill is a joke. Lisbon has now committed us, irreversably, to playing a key role in European poliics, economics and foreign policy. (About bloody time). Cameron's promise commits us to opposing stuff that can now never happen.

It is a bill proposing that if we ever go back in time, Cameron will undo Brown's decisions. Smiley: oyvey


I think you missunderstand what I would like. Ireland had a referendum for a reason, it was in their constitution. I would like the same requirement for our government.
Question for you, would the mainstream UK public be more bought into Europe if the issues had been bought into the open and discussed fully? A referendum would have forced all issues out, myths to be put to bed and the real hard issues to a public who would be listening.

Recent history is all a missed opportunity to educate the public (And before you say anything, that includes me)

Nobby wrote:
As for labour being dead - they're unlikely to win the next election, but Cameron's strength of a united party has been blown out of the water.


I did say, best of a bad bunch.

Nobby wrote:
Don't forget that the main reason new Labour won in 1997 wasn't through their policies (like Cameron now, back then they had none). They won because the pro-EU tories did such a great job of discrediting the Eurosceptics, and vice versa. Tories made a better job of slagging off the tories than Bliar did.


Nonesense. Labour won in 1997 after they barely lost 1992 before. They had Blair, the successor to John Smith, who made Labour electable with the changing of Clause IV. The electorate of the time still remembered the winter of discontent and these reformist actions gave confidence in Labour. Who was it that said the trouble the tories had with labour was that they took up the traditionally Tory right position?

Nobby wrote:
Prepare to watch the tory in-fighting rise to new levels Smiley: lol


I'm not saying you are wrong, I just wish to point out that Labour has enough of that too ...
#5 Nov 08 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Does this mean you're now actually acknowledging the fact that you're part of Europe? Without being on the mainland, that is.
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#6 Nov 08 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
Lady GwynapNud wrote:
Ireland had a referendum for a reason, it was in their constitution. I would like the same requirement for our government. Question for you, would the mainstream UK public be more bought into Europe if the issues had been bought into the open and discussed fully?


No.

Quote:
A referendum would have forced all issues out


Not a chance.

Quote:
myths to be put to bed


Haha, no.

Quote:
and the real hard issues to a public who would be listening.


Hahahahahahahahahahaha...

No.

You don't seriously think the UK is capable of having an honest debate about Europe with a Tory government and tabloids like the Sun and the Mail, do you?

It's kind of amusing, because the Lisbon Treaty will make virtually 0 difference to the lives of ordinary British citizens, and yet it's heralded as the second coming of the four horsemen of the third apocalypse.

And that Jeremy Clarkson column was pants. I wish he could find a place to live far far away from the UK, it would give us all a nice break.

****.
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#7 Nov 08 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
You don't seriously think the UK is capable of having an honest debate about Europe with a Tory government and tabloids like the Sun and the Mail, do you?


You give them too much credence.

RedPhoenixxx wrote:
****.


Smiley: frown
#8 Nov 08 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
Lady GwynapNud wrote:
You give them too much credence.


I don't. The level of debate about Europe is tabloid standards. Most people don't have the foggiest about what is going on, what powers Europe has, the legislative process, the subsidiarity principle, or pretty much anything else substantial.

If people were told the EU was planning to make them every European speak French, many would believe it. It's a disgrace, but this state of affairs suits many people. Europe is a great scapegoat. It pushes the right buttons in terms of rallying people around some modern version of small-minded nationalism. It's the perfect enemy of the right: governmental, bureaucratic and foreign. It's also a sore reminder that England is not an Empire anymore, and needs to be part of Europe in order to have some sort of influence in the world.

So no, I don't think there can be a rational and objective debate public debate any time soon.

Quote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
****.


Smiley: frown


I was referring to Jeremy Clarkson Smiley: wink
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#9 Nov 08 2009 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Lady GwynapNud wrote:
You give them too much credence.


I don't. The level of debate about Europe is tabloid standards. Most people don't have the foggiest about what is going on, what powers Europe has, the legislative process, the subsidiarity principle, or pretty much anything else substantial.

If people were told the EU was planning to make them every European speak French, many would believe it. It's a disgrace, but this state of affairs suits many people. Europe is a great scapegoat. It pushes the right buttons in terms of rallying people around some modern version of small-minded nationalism. It's the perfect enemy of the right: governmental, bureaucratic and foreign.


Not discussing the issues plays into their hands. Not everyone is deaf to reason.

RedPhoenixxx wrote:
It's also a sore reminder that England is not an Empire anymore, and needs to be part of Europe in order to have some sort of influence in the world.


How dare you! You are not talking about a 1950's England here. I, among many in my country, have no idea what "having an empire" is like or wish to see one again Smiley: tongue
In fact, I among many would prefer us NOT to take part in world affairs. Pull our troops out of wars we should not have been involved in and concentrate on our own affairs first, including our relationship with Europe.

Quote:
So no, I don't think there can be a rational and objective debate public debate any time soon.


So lets not try? Trust a fenchman to surrender at the first hurdle

Omg, thats a poor joke but I could not resist Smiley: blush

Quote:


Quote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
****.


Smiley: frown


I was referring to Jeremy Clarkson Smiley: wink


I am so used to being put down and attacked here for any statement on Europe, I just expected insults Smiley: dubious

Edited, Nov 8th 2009 10:43pm by GwynapNud
#10 Nov 09 2009 at 3:43 AM Rating: Excellent
Lady GwynapNud wrote:
Quote:
So no, I don't think there can be a rational and objective debate public debate any time soon.


So lets not try? Trust a fenchman to surrender at the first hurdle


It's tactical. If we were to have a referendum today about the EU in the UK, the pro-Europeans would lose it, almost regardless of the question asked. Even if the question was "Do you want to stay in the EU", it would be a close call.

A referendum on Lisbon would be lost for sure. A referendum on joining the Euro, same. The mood of the country is currently far too anti-Europe, and no amount of rational debate would change that. The only time where a referendum could've worked was in the late 90s, jsut after NuLabour had gotten in power. But today? It's political suicide. Who would make the pro-European case? Labour, the most unpopular government in decades? The BBC, whose very existence is threatened? The Indy, which is probably gonna close? The Lib-Dems, who nobody gives a **** about?

Secondly, I think you're a tiny bit naive with regards to what the debate would be. When they had the referendums in Ireland, the "No" camp was outright lying. They said that Lisbon would mean abortion and euthanasia would be come legal in Ireland, and that taxes would be decided in Brussels. Unless yuo have bags of cash and committed politicians and isntitutions to actively fight agaisnt this stuff, you're gonna lose. Which is what happened the first time in Ireland.

The Sovereignty Bill and the current debate around Lisbon is a perfect example of this. It's 100% ********* If every country in Europe did this, the EU would never, ever progress since you'll never have 27 referendums coming out with the same result.

It's a shame, because the debate is really interesting. The future of the EU is ridiculously important for the UK. But instead of trying to make it work, the Tories are going to spend the next 5-10 years trying to sabotage their only chance to have a meaningful voice on the interntional stage. And no referendum is going to change this.
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#11 Nov 09 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
The mood of the country is currently far too anti-Europe
I know how to make it so you guys don't have to deal with the rest of Europe! You could dig a huge moat around your borders so that they can't readily cross into the country on foot!

Forgive the obvious dumb comment, I slept like crap.
#12 Nov 09 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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NixNot wrote:
I really don't know why I continue to click on threads I know damn well I'm not going to read.


Damn it, you need to exercise your clicking finger somehow.
#13 Nov 09 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Gwyn

Have you read the Lisbon Treaty? I have. It's better (contrary to the red-tops), much different from the previous 'constitution'. I support nearly all of it, and the bits I'm not fond of are either optional or trivial.

I have to agree avec M. Rouge - I've yet to see (even in the broadsheets) a valid summary in the press of the treaty, or of the options available around the Euro - all this emotive, misrepresentative bullpoo about 'keeping the pound' is more stupiderer than a stupid thing.

Ill-informed idiots like you are perpetuating myths that are likely to give us the worst of both worlds: Dismissed by USA as an insignificant satellite of Europe, and by Europe as Sarkozy & Merkel's lap-dog.
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#14 Nov 09 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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Nobby wrote:
Ill-informed idiots like you are perpetuating myths that are likely to give us the worst of both worlds: Dismissed by USA as an insignificant satellite of Europe, and by Europe as Sarkozy & Merkel's lap-dog.


How encouraging of you to dismiss someone would listen to debate Smiley: dubious

#15 Nov 09 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Lady GwynapNud wrote:
How encouraging of you to dismiss someone would listen to debate Smiley: dubious
listening implies a degree of comprehension that escapes you sweety.

In the words of Jamie Lee Curtis in "A Fish Called Wanda" :-

Quote:
Wanda: Now, was that smart? Was it shrewd? Was it good tactics? Or was it stupid?

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.


Seems frighteningly cogent. Smiley: tongue
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#16 Nov 09 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Nobby wrote:
Lady GwynapNud wrote:
How encouraging of you to dismiss someone would listen to debate Smiley: dubious
listening implies a degree of comprehension that escapes you sweety.

In the words of Jamie Lee Curtis in "A Fish Called Wanda" :-

Quote:
Wanda: Now, was that smart? Was it shrewd? Was it good tactics? Or was it stupid?

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.


Seems frighteningly cogent. Smiley: tongue


What this says to me. Is that you would rather be a superior shmuck, looking down on the general populace of the UK rather than convince by the sheer force of evidence. It seems to me that rather than convince the population, the parties would rather ignore the topic, delay decisions and let us slip and slide into Europe ever the reluctant member.

What I am looking for is a way to educate and encourage. That starts by sections of the political machine being exemplars. I do wonder, what image would you set for someone who is scared of the Treaty of Lisbon?

And I have read the Treaty, you *******.

Thank you to Redphoenixxx for a reasoned answer, looking at the real problem. A handsome, charming frenchman. You do your member state credit Smiley: smile
#17 Nov 09 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Lady GwynapNud wrote:
And I have read the Treaty, you *******.
. . . and your OP proves you haven't the first clue about what it mean do you?

I'm here to argue with people who have a reasoned point to make. I'm not here to illuminate, educate or justify.

If you have a point that makes any fUcking sense, feel free to share with the group.

Otherwise you're an annoying alternative to accidentally reading the Daily Mail over the shoulder of the guy in front of me on the Northern Line.
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#18 Nov 09 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Nobby wrote:
Lady GwynapNud wrote:
And I have read the Treaty, you *******.
. . . and your OP proves you haven't the first clue about what it mean do you?


Let me quote myself in my follow up response as you chose to ignore my point.

Gwynapnud wrote:
Question for you, would the mainstream UK public be more bought into Europe if the issues had been bought into the open and discussed fully? A referendum would have forced all issues out, myths to be put to bed and the real hard issues to a public who would be listening.


Nobby wrote:
I'm here to argue with people who have a reasoned point to make. I'm not here to illuminate, educate or justify.


Thank you, you just summed up why any of the UK public feel they are being treated right now. You sound like a politican. Contrary to your opinion I beleive it is the duty of the government to educate and share information in the way our country is governed, or it intends us to be governed in the future.

Nobby wrote:
If you have a point that makes any fUcking sense, feel free to share with the group.


What group? I see no one else contributing here except Red.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 8:59pm by GwynapNud
#19 Nov 09 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Referendums have no place in a democracy.

Just sayin'.
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#20 Nov 09 2009 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
Referenda have no place in a democracy.

Just sayin'.
True (despite a B- for Latinate English from captain pedant here)

And Yes Gwyn the Gubberment (not me) has a duty to ejamacate and inform. If you've read the various briefings published by the FCO you'd either be quoting them, or using tabloid/tory counter-arguments, instead of regurgitating non-sequitur nonsense from the Express & Mail.
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