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Pynchon on LuddismFollow

#1 Mar 19 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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So it turns out that there's to be a Luddite museum. The Fark link to the story rather snippily noted that there will be interactive displays and other such seemingly ironic technological fripperies.

I vaguely knew who the Luddites were, but not much about the genesis of the movement. So I went looking and found this essay by Thomas Pynchon, appropriately written in 1984 (hence the references to mainframes and word processors, and the lack of any mention at all of PCs, the Internet or cell phones).

Something to read on a spring Friday afternoon. Smiley: smile

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#2 Mar 19 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wanted to have a luddite forum just to irritate them. but we got the OOT instead.
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#3 Mar 19 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll be the first to admit I had to M-W.com luddite, I've never heard the term before.
#4 Mar 19 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, as Pynchon points out it's usually used as a pejorative and maybe shouldn't be.

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#5 Mar 19 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
Originally Luddites destroyed machines to remain employed. Virtually no one today would approve of, say, destroy bulldozers to retain more jobs digging ditches by hand.

However, we have pesticides and genetic modified foods. It is very rational not to eat them! We have nuclear weapons - it is very rational to place great restrictions on them. And probably totally irrational to develop new ones.

And each of us can have: constant contact via a cell phone, a blackberry, internet access, thousands of channels of television - but at least limiting that seems wise, if not necessary.

It is clear to me the distinction - but if the former wish to take on the name of the latter, be my guest.
#6 Mar 19 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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I knew what a luddite was/is.
#7 Mar 19 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Yeah, as Pynchon points out it's usually used as a pejorative and maybe shouldn't be.


Yes and no. While the assumption of anti-technology that the term has come to mean isn't wholly correct, what would the world be like today if we'd adopted the position of the luddites? If we'd decided not to adopt labor saving technology on the grounds that it would cost people jobs, would we all be better or worse off? The primary counter argument to the luddite position is that by creating more efficient ways to do things, we free up that labor to do yet other things, which ultimately improve all of our lives. I think it's hard to look at the world we live in and not see abundant evidence that this counter turned out to be right and the luddites turned out to be wrong.

How does this relate to modern labor movements? Is job protection a valid argument given the pretty darn apparent benefits we've all reaped by *not* adopting this philosophy back then? I think the lesson of the luddite is to show how wrong-headed that argument is. Labor is *not* hurt in the long run by the introduction of technology which removes or reduces the need for that labor. Rather, it appears that the exact opposite is true...
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#8 Mar 19 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
The primary counter argument to the luddite position is that by creating more efficient ways to do things, we free up that labor to do yet other things, which ultimately improve all of our lives.


Things can and do change ("640K ought to be enough for anybody"), but I think we're fast approaching (if not already exceeding) the point of diminishing return on this line of thought. That's not to say I'm anti-technology, but we're kind of in a catch 22 now where there's not always enough work and yet the need for income is greater than ever. This pesky cash money system is holding us all back.

In other words, where's my damn replicator?!

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 12:59am by BrownDuck
#9 Mar 20 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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damn it Gbaji, stop it with the fuckin '...' already. We get it, you like to 'imply' things. Problem is you never actually do, you just add ... to every fucking sentence.

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 1:25am by Xsarus
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#10 Mar 20 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Yes and no. While the assumption of anti-technology that the term has come to mean isn't wholly correct, what would the world be like today if we'd adopted the position of the luddites? If we'd decided not to adopt labor saving technology on the grounds that it would cost people jobs, would we all be better or worse off? The primary counter argument to the luddite position is that by creating more efficient ways to do things, we free up that labor to do yet other things, which ultimately improve all of our lives. I think it's hard to look at the world we live in and not see abundant evidence that this counter turned out to be right and the luddites turned out to be wrong.

How does this relate to modern labor movements? Is job protection a valid argument given the pretty darn apparent benefits we've all reaped by *not* adopting this philosophy back then? I think the lesson of the luddite is to show how wrong-headed that argument is. Labor is *not* hurt in the long run by the introduction of technology which removes or reduces the need for that labour. Rather, it appears that the exact opposite is true...

THANK YOU Gbaji. I totally agree. Given the improvement of individual and community well-being that occurs when improved technology takes over old technology, and makes old jobs redundant, I think that it is fair and beneficial to all that monetary welfare is given to those who lose their jobs. Monetary welfare that will provide a minimal standard of living, and pay the rent. Eventually the jobs lost to old technology will be replaced by jobs in the new technology.

I think that the taxpayer has a place to fund educational training in the new technology for people who are out of work for any length of time, in order to hasten the provision of the new technology, reaping the rewards of it.

Secondly, when an old technology is found to be harmful to people, to health, or to a sustainable eco-system, then we need to reverse the technological process of cause and effect. Instead of a new, beneficial technology coming into existence, making an old technology redundant, and taking over from the old technology, we need to declare our existing harmful technology to be redundant, and mandate a swap-over period. We slowly close down permission for the old technology to operate. Entrepreneurs and researchers will rush in to fill the gap, the new market.

Again, jobs will be lost from the old technology, and the old businesses will go out of businesses. The old technology business owners will go broke if they have not diversified their income and savings, as any properly educated person will do as soon as is practicable. But protecting old jobs and old businesses and old technology simply because they were there first is lunacy. Welfare should be there for old technology business owners/shareholders if their income goes bust. And the benefits of the new technology will be there for all.

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 3:35am by Aripyanfar
#11 Mar 20 2010 at 4:49 AM Rating: Good
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What gbaji doesn't realize, is that the point he's pushing pushes socialism or the need for it.
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#12 Mar 20 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
what would the world be like today if we'd adopted the position of the luddites?


You didn't read the essay, did you?

The Luddites weren't totally against modernization - the type of machinery they went around breaking had been around for over 100 years.

They didn't indiscriminately break and burn. They were targeted attacks.

Gee, I dunno where we'd be if we'd adopted the position of the Luddites, but I suspect we'd be about as well off, maybe a little better.

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#13 Mar 20 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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How does this relate to modern labor movements?


It doesn't. AS is frequently the case, you're poorly articulating a valid point of view. Perhaps you're conflating Luddism with the arguments against Taylorism, which do play a critical role in the organized labor movement? Go scurry off and learn what the term means, and come back and post when you're an expert in ten minutes or so.
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#14 Mar 20 2010 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll bet these guys were eventually responsible for the Butlerian Jihad.
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#15 Mar 20 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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If they got their way, we wouldn't have google, and no one would know what they stood for.
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