Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Yes, and the judicial branch has ruled that in this case, the needs of securing classified operations outweighs the claims in their lawsuit.
Which (as you love pointing out) says nothing about the merits of their case.
Yes. I have not once insisted that the guys flying those planes *didn't* knowingly fly them to black prisons and then cart them directly into the torture chambers, and then perhaps changed into their torture suits and did the deed themselves. My point is that we can't assume that is the case either, and in this case, the only way for the judge to get at the facts would require violating classified documents.
Which, I'm sure you'll agree, is a bit more problematic than say subpoenaing a public document from a state health department.
If we're going to make silly comparisons, that is.
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For you to continually say "But can you prove they did this?" when the avenue by which that evidence would be gained was shut off is disingenuous at best.
My "can you prove this" statements were about the broad accusations of torture, not just the specifics of this one case. Given that the argument many are making (BT in particular) for insisting that this lawsuit should open up classified documents rests on the assumption that the US has been torturing (or arranging the torture of) a large number of WoT detainees for the better part of a decade, it's relevant to point out that those are *also* merely accusations and allegations. None of which have been proven or even have evidence to support them other than claims made by detainees (which have no reason at all to lie, right?), and a very small number of confirmed cases in which detainees were tortured
prior to being taken into US custody. From this has spun this huge conspiracy which assumed that the CIA was taking prisoners and sending them to be tortured, getting as much information from them as possible, and then for some inexplicable reason, instead of just killing them and making them disappear, they then delivered them into US custody where said prisoners could tell the regular military guards, and news reporters, and members of congress, and everyone else in the world about what happened.
Occam's Razor tells me that if we were actually doing that, all of the people we did it to would be dead and not sitting in prisons like gitmo. It would be *easier* to keep it secret then, wouldn't it?
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The court didn't serve the interests of justice here by weighing the evidence, it refused to allow a case to be heard not even for procedural issues with the case that could be remedied but for completely extrajudicial reasons.
I think it did serve the interests of justice. I just think that many people believe that justice is when the result is what they want it to be, and that's not always the case. Justice exists for the guys who flew those planes as well, right? How would justice be served if they were forced to stand trial, but could not bring any evidence to defend themselves because it was all classified and they'd be charged with even more serious crimes if they did?
Would that be justice? Justice is blind but fair. You can't just look at one side here. I think the judge did the right thing (and this is probably the only time you'll hear me say that about the 9th court).