Attention Players of Shiva, A Petition to SEFollow

|hmmm.| What about the scrolls any mage has to buy? It's not like a blm will ever cast Thunder II again after he gets Thunder III but he can't get that money back either. Also the only reason Rangers have to pay out the *** is because that is what people charge Rangers for their arrows/bolts/bullets. Anyone who has taken an economics class knows the law of supply and demand. Rangers used to be ungodly and were the 'popular' damage dealing class; Since everyone played it the 'demand' on the ingame economy was 'huge'. Therefore the price was 'huge'. I give the economy a month and you will begin to see that it won't be costing rangers that much to lvl anymore. Why? because rangers aren't the flavor of the month anymore. So what if you still have to pay 'more' than a war to lvl? I am sure money 'is' and issue but no damage dealing job should outdistance the other damage dealing jobs as much as rangers did. If you can't except that? As it has been said; then leave.

Also, SE does whatever SE wants to do. They don't give a frell what you or anyone else think really. They won't care about that petition and they didn't really care about people who complained about RNGers. They didn't care about the dragoons, samurai, and monks who got hit hardest with the previous big nerf; so why the hell would they care about you or anyone who complained about rngers? You think SE pays people to cruise the Allakhazam server forums? get a grip. we aren't even on SE's rader. SE has created a game and they have a vision for what this game is and what it will be. They do notice when we pervert jobs to do what was not intended and they decide what to do about it. They've been trying to dissuade people from Nin tanking but the players are being stubborn and finding new and inventive ways of having nin hold hate. So if ranger's ranged attack got nerfed it was because SE didn't agree with you that you should have the damage capabilities that you previously had. Since SE's opinion is the one that matters the nerf was implimented.



Ah the crux of the matter. A tank can only hold so much 'hate' and a good DD has to walk that line. Yet Rangers were not the only job who could strip hate off tanks. A good Dark Knight, Dragoon, Monk, Thief, Black Mage, Samurai, Warrior could strip hate off a tank as well. So if any DD job 'can' be played along that hate line then what does it matter in Exp Pts? It only changes that you can't make a Bones Pt of rangers and take our mobs you have no business fighting for max xp.

So you have taken Thief to 70? impressive. I really mean that but how you did that by "just engage and watch their TP guage fill up?" while leveling thf is beyond me.



I am a lvl 56 whm and I don't give a **** about endgame yet; so I don't care 'what' evens out there yet. All I care about is finding a pt that has players that are half way decent and don't get me killed to the point where I 'loose' experience for trying to lvl that day. So you are saying that Rangers have a fundimental right to lvl faster than me with their specialness because they throw gil at mobs? Then why can't I as a whm have that option too? I would trade gil for xp too but only rangers should have this ability? Do you see how selfish this is yet? or are you too stubborn to admit that rangers were broken in the first place?



You are right, everyone has a right to whine about whatever they want. What you fail to realize is that everyone else also has a right to whine about the whiners. So you are upset with how SE nerfed Rangers? get a life. I am upset with how the 'players' have typecasted every job in the game. A Summoner can't be a damage dealer because people won't let them. A Ninja can't be a Damage Dealer because people won't let them. White Mages are considered substandard primary healers to bards and red mages even though they are the best at it in the game. I am sorry but after lvl 45 I, as a whm, have only had down time in a 'bad pt'. one red mage or bard was sufficient to help me recover enough mp with my own resting so that the puller pulled constantly after 'every' fight. So I 'reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaallllyyyy' despise it when people talk and act like white mages are worthless because "omg you have to rest to regain your mp? you suxor; why can't you do that thing the red mages do where you switch you hp with your mp?" Why can't everyone just let this elitism go?

first of all, i want to clarify something that is an assumption that every single solitary person who posts on this matter, who is supporting the update has said. i do not mind having to "think" in order to play my job. i do not mind having to make adjustments to parties and changing tactics in order to play my job. i dont believe that a lot of these "good RNGs" that you all speak so highly of mind either. the fast leveling was never what made RNG fun for me. but doing massive amounts of damage while looking really damned impressive at the same time *IS* what i found fun, and i believe that that is how a very large percentage of the people who are complaining about this update feel.

you are right, spells are a loss. but that is something you will get much more use out of than one shot. you use a scroll once, and no matter how expensive it is you never have to buy it again. rangers on the other hand, have to buy stuff over and over and over again in order to just keep leveling. all told i have spent probably around 1.5M on just ammunition in leveling RNG to 61. aside from a few big money scrolls, that is far more per level than your average mage job. also you made the analogy that a BLM will never cast thunder II once he gets thunder III. ever hear of level cap areas? that is not very *much* use out of the scroll after he's gotten thunder III, but thats still more of his moneys worth than the RNG will get from the ammunition he has spent.

no, i dont think and never did think that SE pays any attention to the things we say on here or on any other board for that matter. i think maybe some of the developers will browse boards like this on their own time for ideas, but no other than that i dont think anyone listens. but at least this person is trying to take it beyond that. at least this guy is doing something beyond venting somewhere that will never reach someone at SEs eyes. and then you all flame him for it...he is passionate about something, i applaud his effort, even if it is fruitless.

as for "the crux of the matter", as i said in my previous post, it is not any one RNGs fault that other melee jobs dont get invites as much. all RNGs were doing was playing their job. it is YOURS and OTHERS fault as a community for not recognizing the damage dealing capabilities of other jobs. its ******* beyond me why you all had such a hard time breaking this idea that you all had in your head that RNGs were the be all end all of melee damage pre-patch, and post patch you cant stop saying "OH OTHER JOBS ARE GOOD TOO". you are right ceraphine, it doesnt matter so much in an exp party. even pre-patch a really good dark knight dragoon or monk could outdamage RNGs in exp parties. so what was stopping all these melee from shining pre-patch? it wasnt the RNGs, it was *drum roll please* YOU ALL. congratulations!

oh and just to give you an idea of the tactics involved in being a level 70 THF, i'll give you a breakdown of how the average exp mob met its end from a thiefs perspective.
1. pull
2. setup for SATA+WS onto tank
3. SC with other melee with SATA+WS onto tank.
4. watch TP guage fill up

as RNG pre-patch it went something like this
1. pull
2. if no setup for SC is needed skip to step 3. setup for SC.
3. SC with other melee
4. shoot till TP guage is full
5. depending on what is going on with hate, sharpshot + barrage can be used.

they seem awfully similar. maybe i'm just bad at my jobs, i dont know.

as for leveling fast, i dont know exactly why you put that in there because it was never an issue for me. i always played RNG because i liked the job, LFG time was never an issue for me. but anyways, nowhere have i stated that RNG should have the ability to exp faster than other jobs. the main reason why RNG exp'd so much faster than other jobs wasnt because of their damage output, it was the sheer volume of invites from the "OMG AN RNG WITHOUT A GROUP *INVITES*" kind of people. the only thing that i think RNGs got stiffed on with this update that had to do with money was damage. they dont pay for fast exp, they pay to do good damage. now post patch, we pay 2-3x as much as the average melee to do about as much, or less damage than the average melee. i dont see how pre-patch RNG was selfish at all. i paid for the amount of damage i did, and that amount of damage kept you all and myself happy. i dont see how RNG was broken in the first place, and i'm not going to because i dont agree with you or your viewpoint at all.

as for your last paragraph, i agree with the typecasting thing. but i dont see why RNG should get beaten with the nerf stick because party leaders are too ignorant/stubborn to give other melees a shot. if you really truly look at the differences between RNG and other melee pre patch, this nerf wasnt necessary. the way of thinking of the players on all servers was what needed to be changed.

Edited, Thu Jul 28 11:43:59 2005 by Cohle

Edited, Thu Jul 28 11:50:18 2005 by Cohle

jesus christ i am sick and ******* tired of people telling me to shut up and "deal with it."

it is a NERF. its frustrating, its a pain in the ***. i havent played much at all in the past couple of weeks because of it. when i DO play i DO do my best to "deal with it.". when i am on these forums, which they are a public forum a place for people to speak their minds, i am going to *****.

either get the **** over it, or shut the **** up, sophus.

It's frustrating, yes. I already said that I don't agree with some of these changes because RNG and NIN have to pay an immense amount of money to achieve the same or similar results as other jobs. But the fact is that it happened and there isn't a damn thing that you can do about it. What's more, it happened to RANGER, not to COHLE. This WASN'T a nerf Cohle patch.

I'm not saying to "deal with it" because I'm tired of rangers ********* Your job is different now and you haven't adjusted yet...but you will. Just like SAM, MNK and DRG, this patch will eventually be a distant memory.



First of all, that was uncalled for. Your fight is with the patch, and maybe even with SE. You obviously want people to respect your opinion. Give the same respect to others.

Complaining about the issue is not productive. It's not getting you anywhere. Quite frankly, it's selfish.

You said that you liked the damage and respectability you got pre-patch and it was OUR fault for not recognizing the abilities of other jobs. Well now the playing field is a tad more leveled. From now on it's going to be your abilities that get you that respectability and not simply your job attributes. I think that's what scares you.

Other rangers are trying to make the most out of it and you are coming on here to attack people for posting their opinions as both rangers and non-rangers. Guess what Cohle, there ARE other jobs out there besides ranger. Our subscriptions cost just as much as yours, and we have our opinions as well. While we may not know what it's like to play ranger, we sure as hell know what it's like to be in a group. We can see when a person is excelling or not pulling their own weight. We can see both the strengths and weaknesses of every single person we party with.

One last thing. While you here attacking us about the patch, those other "nerfed" and overlooked jobs are out there shining. Are you going to attack people on a message board who can't change the patch, or are you going to go out there and bust your *** and make certain that RNG doesn't become the next Dark Knight?


p.s.--no offense to DRK....you damn wind fans :p



Edited, Thu Jul 28 12:45:18 2005 by SophusTehNewb

your rep, armor, weapons and skill determine how well you'll fare in a party.

I think opinions are important. Please *****. I also think it is not useful to get angry but is useful to get mad or vice versa.

In other words, get emotional, FEEL the pain, Spell it! so I can see what the fuss is.

Rangers and Ninjas are two jobs that I haven't played but Pokiehl hit on the head when she said that Rangers would fly by the levels like there was not tomorrow while you would sit there lfg. And Ninjas are all over the place as subs and as tanks. I think the truth is that people LIKE to spend money. I know I do. It could be that SE intended to boost economy by making jobs that were money-intensive, superior to the others.

H O H I T O !
I am a chronic overnoooker! GREEN SLIME! I am also a chronic overuser of exclamation points!

Edited, Thu Jul 28 15:09:30 2005 by Cornnholio

There will ALWAYS be ONE job that is most powerful. How would you feel if SE nerfed BLM? Cut nuke power in half?



This is very true. RNGs did get PTs FAST. But you know the odd thing? Whenever I'd make a PT as RNG or even THF, I'd see DRGs, MNKs and such seeking...along with jobs to make a whole PT.

Why the hell are ppl constantly LFG while AFK, or just sitting LFG without ACTIVELY trying to make a PT? I heard stories of "oh, I was LFG for 15 hours ; ; " I would NEVER sit LFG that long. My RNG is 75, my THF is 61 (my second job). If I DIDN'T make a PT as THF, I'd STILL be lvl 35. Seriously.

And as RNG, ppl expect a LOT of you. Usually the first thing ppl do is check you. I remember PTing with a guy, he said "I only like rich RNGs ^^" Spending +100k per party? Yes, I better get an invite. I know other jobs are expensive. A DRK just about HAS to have a Haub, and MNK gear are sky high. But those are like investments. When buying ammo, I can't sell that back. Someone wants me to help them as RNG to do something? np, but it costs me. People say, "why don't you sell your gear back since RNGs sucks now?" RNG gear has went down, so now I'd get maybe a third of what I paid for, but thats not a big deal.

Nerfing RNGs on IT+++ etc mobs was GREAT. Keep ppl from just getting BLMs and RNGs; going to places where they shouldn't to XP. But nerfing RNGs base DMG and ACC? No. A RNG is supposed to be accurate and powerful. I didn't pick RNG as a job just so I could look like a boy-scout. I did it for the DMG output and potentials. Now, that is almost gone.

Others say, "now RNGs will have to use skill like everyone else." How the hell is moving up and down from the mob considered skill? Skill is when you are in Kuftal tunnel pulling and there is pop in front of you so u Shadowbind your mob, Camoflague yourself and go to camp...so your mob will follow after unbound with no link. Skill is when you don't have to tell your WHM "paralyzed", cuz he/she is already on it. Skill is when your DRK is smart enough to not abuse Soul Eater so much that she/he is now called "Dirt Eater"...and when they Stun on time to save your PTs (BLMs too).

But this is the easiest way SE knows, rather than actually making other jobs better. Will this help DRGs get PTs more? Maybe, but they are no better than they already were. The one thing I'm happy about the nerf is that I won't see a whole influx of RNGs anymore. One of the reasons DRKs didn't get PTs so much is because n00b DRKs gave them a bad name. Wanting to do the most DMG instead of doing DMG and using MP, they have MP for a reason.
I didn't like DRKs until I played with a few good ones. Anyway, sign or don't sign. I did, but it won't change anything. I don't want RNGs to be best on IT+++'s and crap, but I do want my normal DMG and ACC at least on VT mobs SE.



Better arrows? Where? As RNG, I only used Silvers and Kaburas (when the AH had it). I don't see the pattern. Unless SE makes better ammo, and no, that new CP type Shell bullet doesn't count. I'm talking about something I can "use", not use once whenever my Unlimited Shot JA is ready.



Acepod, that was a dumb/rude thing you just said. I could say that all you do is auto-attack, hit your Berserk macro, Aggressor macro, Warcry macro, WS...rinse and repeat. Being RNG is not a mindless job. When did you become such a hot-head? I may not have the best gear, but I do think I had "some" skill at being RNG. Last time I checked, everyone used macros. If you want MY opinion, the hardest/skillful/busiest jobs are: NIN, PLD, BRD, WHM. Jobs on the easier side are: MNK, DD WAR, DRG. Why I say they are easier? All they have to do is do DMG. You can go AFK on auto-attack if you wanted. A NIN and PLD can't since they are tanking, they are always busy. A BRD has to constantly keep songs up. And the WHM has to keep the PT alive. You don't wanna know hom many times I PTed with WARs and MNKs that said "don't move the mob, brb" while they auto-attack and go use the ******** or get a drink. As RNG, I wish I could. As THF, I sure as hell can't, unless I can **** across the room or run and get a drink in 60 seconds. Jobs that are in the mid-to-busy slot are: DRK, RNG, THF, RDM, BLM. So please don't knock/hate other jobs until you realize what you yourself are doing in a PT also.

To those that think that "my" RNG is weak. Meet me in Ballista.
My RNG/DRK OWNZ J00.

{Last Resort}{Soul Eater}{Slugshot} {Do j00 n33d it?} LOLZZ@@!!

Edited, Thu Jul 28 15:33:21 2005 by BarchielReturns

Yes Sophus, but the level change didn't happen. And you don't know if it will. Just get used to the RNG b!tching for like, 2 more weeks. You don't like it? Well haven't you PTed with a RNG before? To have someone going from doing the most DMG as melee (before lvl 73), to as much as most others...yes, that sucks. If you don't like the complaining, don't post. Or better yet, MPK a RNG to release your frustration.

I hate when people want to have the jobs do balanced DMG. If that is true, I want my THF to do the DMG of a WAR. I mean, I want balance too, right? There should and always will be a job that does the most DMG for a cost/downside. RNG's cost/downside was ammo ain't free and they almost have to sub /NIN to survive. But it was worth it.

Bar, I wasn't talking about ammo with better stats...I was talking about better ammo for each situation. It's rare that I see a ranger sleep links, stun or enfeeble mobs, inflict elemental damage to things with high physical defense, or heal themselves with bloody bolts so the mage doesn't have to. My point was that in order to be more effective, these types of items can (and maybe even should) be used. However doing so incurs a consumable cost and helps to create a gil sink. Free-flowing gil go bye bye.

Oh yeah, and I take offense to RDM not being a busy job. If you're not refreshing yourself and anyone with mp (one by one, not all at once) you are enfeebling, hasting, healing, nuking, bursting, and enfeebling/refreshing/hasting/nuking/bursting some more. My down time comes nevar! :(

But then again there are a lot of crappy RDM so I can see why you'd think so :)

Bar, I'm not mad him for his rant...he is more than entitled to it. And no, I do not feel vindicated because rangers don't do as much damage anymore. I have no melee jobs so I could really care less.

On the subject of recognition however, Remember that my two mains are RDM and BRD. NEITHER of them do respectable direct damage. It is rare that I get respect or appreciation in a party--ever. In fact, the only time people will say something to me is if they don't think I'm doing something good enough.

When it comes down to it, I can keep a mob enfeebled, everyone hasted (not just the tank), AND everyone refreshed yet I never a thank you or even a <| Good Job |>. But the instant refresh drops because I'm too busy keeping the party healed and taking care of links.... <| Refresh |> <| Please |>. However that is my choice and I love every minute of it.

Oh and by the way--



Damage does not make a player great...the player makes the player great. I will never outdamage war/mnk/rng/blm/smn/etc but I *can* outlast them. If being able to do more damage meant I'd be a better player then I'd better go level up nin so I can rdm/nin in parties :D

Ok. I can answer your question.

A RNG CANNOT be depended on to sleep a link with a fricken bolt. Sometimes it will hit, do DMG, but don't sleep. Do you REALLY want to depend on that?

Stun???? Yes, there are Stun Bullets, but do you know how long it takes to shot a gun? Unless your RNG has ESP, they will NOT be Stunning a Gob's bomb toss. Again, you can't count on that.

Elemental DMG? Well, some RNGs use Holy Bolts, many cuz its cheap and does pretty good DMG with added effect. RNGs DO use Acid bolts, when they use Crossbows to increase the DMG output for themselves and the rest of the PT.

Heal themselves with Bloody Bolts? How about ALL melee that can use a Crossbow just heal themselves with Bloody Bolts. The day that a RNG or any DD can successful keep themselves alive in a PT with that method, is perhaps they end of needing a healer. Bloody Bolts *might* give you about 20-40 HP. A mob does like, 100-120 DMG hitting a RNG. Do you want your RNG to have to heal his damn after taking DMG like that?

How about if you, a RDM, get hate. You just up Phalanx, Stoneskin, Blink and tank for the rest of the fight. Isn't that more efficient?

When I use Silver Bullets, no, I'm not enfeebling jack. I'm concentrating on killing the mob, not doing your job. If I'm using arrows, yes, I will use Demons to lower mobs ATT and Kaburas to silence.

So, Sophus, since you are asking all this of a RNG, maybe RNG's isn't such an easy job to level afterall.