Attention Players of Shiva, A Petition to SEFollow

sophus do you want to know what pissed me off about your post?

you can disagree with my opinion all you like. you can question the facts and reasoning behind it, you can argue with me. what pisses me off is you and others like you take a logical argument written in a respectful way without personally attacking anyone and pass it off as "whining." DO NOT undermine my intelligence and disregard my argument just because you dont feel like listening to someones complaints. no one MADE you read this thread.

if its selfish to post an opinion on a public message board fine. i am going to be selfish. i thought this place was for discussion anyways. not one sided arguments where one party is declared the "whiner". i havent gone around spamming the board with this, i've kept it confined to this one thread where discussion on this matter that i've been arguing on is happening. again, if you dont feel like arguing leave the thread.

it was my abilities that got me respect and recognition in the first place. just because ranger could outdamage other jobs easier doesnt mean that i could simply sit there in a party and do absolutely nothing and put up good numbers. ****** rangers did not last very long in parties pre-patch, they still wont last long post patch. nowhere has this patch "scared" me. however it has been very frustrating to have ones damage and purpose in a party basically be stripped away from you.

sophus i did not attack anyone in my posts with the exception of you. i made generalized statements about the community as a whole which could be considered less than nice, but i did not explicitly tell anyone "get a life" or "stop whining" like you all have done to me in this thread, or like many have done to the OP.

you're right sophus, there ARE other jobs out there. however, the playing field is not more level. it is ridiculously skewed against ranger now. it was perfectly level before, but you all couldnt get past the idea of "RNG ONRY". i was guilty of it too. but i dont see that as any reason to gimp a job class.

oh and for the record, i have already bought new equipment and begun to make adjustments to accomodate this stupid unjust patch in spite of the trash talk and stuff that is being brought by other people. when i am playing, i am doing exactly what it is you all are telling me to do. so i kindly ask you to shut up about that. when i am on here, on a message board, a forum for public opinion, then i am going to argue. because i dont feel that this is right.

I agree with you Cohle. People blame RNGs for "taking their spot in a PT". It was NEVER anyone's spot. The damn spot is free. If the leader don't want you, ***** at him. No one mentions the mana-burn PTs, or all MNK PTs, or the DRG duo PTs.

The fact is, people will always ***** about something. Should a SMN ***** at a BLM or another mage job for "taking" his/her spot in a PT? Maybe BLMs need a nerf to "level the playing field" for SMNs. There are two kinds of DMG Dealers. The DoTs and spike dealers. BLMs and RNGs did high DMG...well, DRK too. WAR, MNK, DRG had good DoT. Hell, endgame, a NIN can out damage a RNG, so can everyone else. MNKs can out damage them around the 60's. DRGs and THFs were two of the best jobs around 30's-40's. DRK's obliterate **** at 66.

My main gripe is losing your purpose in a PT, and STILL having to pay for it.

Cohle, I apologize if my posts appeared to be an attack towards you. It was not meant that way. I believe that is the problem, however.

When a ranger sees the effects of this patch they consider it a nerf. When a non-ranger sees this patch, they see it as levelling the field. As such, when many rangers posted after the patch the non-rangers saw it as whining. When the non-rangers posted after the patch, they saw it as an attack. In reality, it is two sides of the same coin. What we have said was never an attack on you, nor on the ranger class.

As I previously stated, I am not a ranger nor do I think like one. However, I am a mage. I am YOUR mage, and I demand efficiency. Just as you are entitiled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. What I have said was never a demand, simply a suggestion: if you can't change the way something is, work around it. If you are truly doing that then I applaud you. But in the end, you will never know the true outcome of this patch for weeks or even months down the line.

I do not care if you "whine" or put up constructive criticsm or anything you wish. It is an open board. All I care is that you do your job and always keep an open mind, even from people you perceive to be attacking you.

Bar, I'm disappointed. I thought you were above countering arguments with personal attacks. I understand that the topic frustrates you, but there is no reason to turn a good debate into a "well your mom does crack!" ***********


First off, I'm giving suggestions, not saying what a rng SHOULD do. I remember when the bradygames guide came out and everyone said "You shouldn't sub nin because your tools will be half your level. Nope nope, it'll never work. Bradygames says so." Yet a few people went against the grain...spent some money...and viola! What is arguably the most widely-used sub in the game?

The following is my honest opinion Bar. I'm telling you this up front so you do not think that this is an attack against you, Cohle, or anyone else:

The biggest problem with ANY job is tunnel vision. We get so swept up in what we SHOULD do and what we THINK we should do that we forget what we CAN do. Rangers only want to do damage. Black mages only want to do damage. DRK only wants to do damage. Well what happened to all those other nice skills and tools that you have access to? Did you ever think that by going a bit out of the norm you could actually be helping OTHERS do damage or even save HP or MP? And even though it's not your damage guess what, the mob still dies faster!

OMG! WTF! Faster exp? Say it ain't so!

But do you know why no one wants to do this? Because you don't get the cheers and applause when it says "Mob is Paralyzed." No one gives a rat's *** if it says "Mob misses X." It's always me me me. We forget the stupid phrase that there's no "I" in team. So what if you can't stun a bomb. Can you stun AM? Because if you don't happen to have a DRK or BLM--or if your BLM is busy with something else--why the hell can't you do it? Stop thinking that it's someone else's job and step up to the plate to do it yourself. If you find that you don't even need that other job then get them the hell out of your party so they stop leeching your experience!



Bar, I would be more than happy for you to tell me how to do my job. You know why? Because I want to get better. I NEED to get better. The better I am, the better I can do. The better I can do, the more efficient I am. If you see someone doing something that they could be doing better for goodness sake tell them...but be nice and do it in /tell. This isn't limited to mages, and rangers are not exempt.

Yes, Sophus. And I'M telling you that your suggestions DON'T WORK SO WELL.
I didn't turn this into a *********** and if your mom does crack that's her business.

You know that everyone knows that Bradygames FFXI guide is ****. It gives vague info about the jobs and their purposes.

The reason WHY ppl sub NIN is NOT to SPAM the Ichi line of Ninjutsu just to get it resisted. They did it for Utsusemi and Dual Wield. Just like how mages don't sub BLM for half-assed nukes. They do it for the MP, Warp etc.

I respect your ideas, but you carried it a bit far when it would have been better for you to simply be silent if its an area you aren't too sure of. You have some interesting ideas, sounds good on paper, but in game it doesn't work. Are you still reading the Brady books for info?



First of all, don't say "we". Speak for yourself. There a lot of Absorbing DRKs, Frosting BLMs, and Acid spamming RNGs out there.

Second, YES. A lot of ppl DO care how much DMG they can do while letting the tank hold hate. DMG = dead mob. The longer you "play" with the mob, means more of a chance to waste MP, longer chains, and eventually...less XP. Why ppl liked BLM and RNG? Reliable DMG. Why DRK? Because when the DRK closes the SC, and BLM MB's, the mob is dead.

You keep saying how ppl should try to help others do damage:

Acid Bolts from RNGs help
Absorb VIT, AGI, INT, MND from DRKs help

How to help save HP?

Blind, Absorb STR, Stun, Sleep...all kinds of things.

Sophus, ppl already do these things. What are you looking for? You keep mentioning Tools. I keep telling you that there is a very low chance of someone
/NIN to get a Tool's Ninjutsu to land. And plus it's Ichi, Ichi takes a long time to cast. But instead, you keep going around the answer and bringing the questioni back up.

You disappointed? Don't be. You're not my enemy, you don't know me well enough for that. I'm just trying to give you some insight on what's really going on.



Sophus, it looks like you are saying "me, me, me" right now. You want someone to kiss your *** just because you Refreshed them, or Paralyzed a mob? It's a part of your job. Maybe you should tell your tank "good job" on Provoking, or hell, tell the THF "good job" on stealing a Gold Beastcoin.

Though you may not know it, ppl DO appreciate those things. But its a part of the job, you don't need a hand clap for that. I tell ppl "good job" all the time on things, especially after a heated battle. YOU seem to be the main person putting the "I" back in "team".

And if there is no DRK or BLM on the team, then the team will just get some DMG just like normal. It's not that big of a deal. Its not like its a god fight or something. Where are you getting your ideas from? I guess I'll give you a /clap for waking up today, or for posting on this forum. Does that make you feel better? Seriously bro, don't let the asshats and n00bs get you confused.

Now I really don't know what you are trying to say.

Yes, I do believe that you'd know more about a job by playing it. It helps you get "working" knowledge of it, not just what you've read on a forum or a book about it.
Knowing actually mechanics helps.



Yes, I have.
I used Stun Bullets before. Trying to Stun a mob with a gun is almost impossible. You DO know how long it takes to shoot a gun right?

I tried healing myself with Blood Bolts in PT. As RNG it's pretty stupid; if it's near death, I should try to kill it so I can go pull again, it not...I'm still building hate after getting hit, so I'll get about 400-500 DMG trying to get 120 HP from Blood Bolts forcing a mage to have to heal me anyway. As THF, if I'm hit, Regen will do well since THF's get very little hate...not to mention THF's Marksmanship grade is low even with Merits in it.

By subbing /NIN alone will help mages with MP. If a mage is too stingy to Cure someone...your PT has a problem.



Listen Sophus. I picked RNG because of DMG. Period. I don't like paying +100k per party, nor do I like being dressed up like a boy-scout, but the DMG was worth it. You are throughly confused. The most important thing isn't having a hard-on for your job, it's the FUNCTION of your job. RNGs almost lost the function of its job, high DMG. Do not tell me this "love your job" crap. I think AF got to your head. I'm leveling my THF also. I like THF, it has many functions. If I lose those functions, the job is almost pointless; a hollow shell. Do you see now? If all jobs had no functions, hell, I'd probably be a NIN because they have cool looking AF. But in thinking of the functions (WHAT MAKES YOUR JOB WHAT IT IS), that is the most important thing to consider.

Job Functions (IMO)

PLD= Heavy Tank, save mages some MP considering your ability to heal and DEF
NIN= Med Tank, save mages a lot of MP considering your ability to rarely get hit
WAR= Med Tank or DD. Flexible job that can do both well
DRK= Utility DD, king SC closer, Stunner. What more can I say? 1337 DMGZ...
THF= Safe puller because of highest EVA, high SC closer, transfer hate to tank
MNK= Pure DD, kill...
RNG= Pure DD, good SCer, puller, easy ability to turn mobs (before patch)
DRG= Flexible DD. Can sub mage to help cure with breaths, or WAR for DMG,
good SATA buddy with ability to Jump hate off
SAM= SC pros. With Third Eye, they are decent Trick buddies. Good DMG and they
have second best Archery skills. Did I mention they get TP fast?
BLM= King of DMGZ. Most reliable DMG, can backup cure if needed, and lower
mobs VIT, AGI etc with spells. DDs start the fight, BLMs end the fight...
WHM= The doctor. Cure, Raise, Protect etc. Remove status ailments and can also
enfeeble the mob.
RDM= Very flexible role until around lvl 41 when they become Lords of MP. Enfeeble
lords. Back up cures, nukes and light DD also. Great job and comes with
pimp hat.
BRD= Makes PT feel like a million bucks. Makes PT fight like it's 2 lvls above what
it really is. Enfeebles, debuffs, backup cures also comes with the package.
SMN= Powerful summons, back up cures and summon nukes. A very
underestimated job by most.
BST= The anti-social job. Though you don't want to **** them off since they can
take out your PT with a pet. Ultimate soloers, no one does it better.

That's my opinion, Sophus. I'm no expert, and I don't claim to be. But I have been on other sides of the fence, everyone wants to be useful. SE didn't help other jobs, they just kicked one in the balls. But that's the easiest thing for them to do, isn't it? People say that "SE CAN'T just make other jobs better, it would mess things up with mobs and such." Well, they are good at making jobs suckier. THAT doesn't mess things up with XP PTs and mobs?





Edited, Fri Jul 29 02:20:14 2005 by BarchielReturns

Bar, here is as simple as I can possibly make it:







A PLD doesn't have the same dynamics as a war, a blm doesn't have the same dynamics as a rdm. And in this case, a pre-patch ranger doesn't have the same dynamics of a post-patch ranger.

So if the most important thing to consider is the function and role of your job...and the function has changed...either adapt to the new dynamics, switch jobs, or quit. The longer you loom about what you lost, you will never find what you've gained.

And for future reference, attacking people does not solve a problem. Attacking a problem solves a problem. So when someone tells you that there is more to the game than X, you are not doing yourself favors by saying:



Your problem is not with me, nor was it ever with me. It's with the patch and your ability or inability to adapt. Who knows, maybe my dynamics will need to change as a result as well? Maybe everyone's will? But how will I ever know if rangers continue to use the same old playbook? Those dynamics won't work anymore, and unless I see someone doing something new I'm never going to know how to adapt.

Most of all, I'd be more willing to compromise and help out a ranger who kept an open mind than one who enters the party knowing everything.

Bar, I may not be able to agree with your snide personal attacks or your know-it-all attitude, but at least we agree that eventually this will fade away. The sooner people accept it and move on, the quicker that will happen.

And btw, ty for referring to me as my real name (Jesus)...my child.

edit: BTW, we did some coffer key runs the other day for people in my linkshell. Then last night, we did some Tribunus runs to get Tungis. RNG damage...never an issue.


Edited, Fri Jul 29 09:30:45 2005 by SophusTehNewb

*raises hand* Guilty! But, never invited more than one RNG to a party. What did I do? /sea all WAR/MNK/DRG/SAM Why? Because I love those jobs. Oth, for those who don't know, he IS my RL uncle, is a DRG, and whenever I leveled near his level, /sea all oth. Or I'd tell him to get online.

Not because he's my uncle, but because his job, along with the rest of them, DRK included, were always overlooked.

As far as BRD's, though, I always did /sea all RDM first. I know a lot of RDM's, lol, if none were seeking, then I did a BRD search.

Point is, now that RNG's aren't so 'uber', a lot are complaining, whining, ....petetioning, because they can't stand being a shadow of their former selves and glory. This is what the rest of us DD's have to put up with. Yes, I even made parties, too, and played as the effin' WHM until 70, so I know what job distress is, lol.

Anyway... This is how things are now. Like others said, accept it and go with, or whine and complain, and maybe this petition will take effect..

But, in my honest opinion, I wouldn't waste my breath on it to SE, look at how much we still get gil-sellers affecting our camps and all, lol. Though, what they did with R/E things was a nice touch, I have to admit. :D

~Nieko

P.S.: I don't mean this post as a cut on anyone or anything, just stating an opinion yet again, lol. If it offends you, then sorry. Not much I can do otherwise if it does, lol.

Sophus, I'm not a know it all. I still get lost in La Thiene Plateau. YOU are the one acting like the savior/know it all that much help teach everyone how to play their jobs. It's you that keeps saying "I don't mind helping a RNG learn this-that..." I'm saying, let ppl ***** for now to get it out of their system. No one wants your pity.

Snide personal attacks are fun, btw. Especially against someone who won't play back. I'm not as rude as you think I am, I'm a pretty kind person. But RNG is one of my jobs, and is my highest job. I think I know a lot more about it that you, someone who seems knowledgeable, but experiences the job from the outside.



Don't make me get my DRG/SMN. I hope you like "3-way^^"
Me + Wyvern + Carbie = 1337 FUGGIN DMGZ. {D0 J00 n33d !t?} LOLERZ@@ZZ!!

Or should I tell my NPC buddy about this?? I taught him how to /hump.
TIME TO SKILL UP ON DAT AZZ!!!

Ways I "help" rangers as a...

RDM:
*Dia for more damage
*Choke for more damage
*Gravity to lower a mob's evasion
*Frost to lower a mob's agility
*Haste to speed up physical attacks and ranged attacks
*Haste to decrease spell casting time
*Dispel to remove those nasty +def or +eva abilities on mobs
*Other enfeebling magic (slow/para/blind/silence/etc) to weaken the mob against the ranger and other melee
*Spells such as paralyna or silena (when /whm) to remove devastating enfeebling magic

BRD:
*Madrigal for increased accuracy
*Prelude for increased ranged accuracy
*Mambo for increased evasion
*Etudes for increased agility or dexterity
*March for increased attack rate
*March for decreased spell casting time
*Finale to remove those nasty +def or +eva attacks
*Threnodies to make weaponskills do more damage
*(Though I don't have it yet) Mazurka to increase movement speed for pulls

These methods of help require no teaching, no lessons, and no sermons. They don't even require having played the job personally. Regardless, they do help the jobs. I believe that my definition of help and yours are different.

You may say that I should be doing all of these anyway, and I would agree. However, most parties expect only that the mages have ballad and the melees have madrigal/minuet if I'm a bard...or that the mob is enfeebled and the mages have refresh if I'm a RDM. For me, that isn't enough.

The difference between a good party and a great party is the quality of the players both individually and as a team. It may be enough for a mage to paralyna a tank after they have been paralyzed--but have you ever seen them do it AS the tank is being paralzyed. Wow! Have you ever been silena'd immediately after silence instead of saying <| Silena |> and waiting minute or two afterwards? I bet having availability to those shadows immediately was a nice thing.

Your mage doesn't have to be that astute, but doing so made the entire party better (and your life easier).

I go all out for those who act as a team and keep open minds. I make certain that they get hasted and that the mob doesn't drop enfeebles for more than a few seconds. They are obviously trying to make the party better, so it's only right that I try to make THEM better. It doesn't mean I'm giving them advice or telling them what to do. It means that I'm making them stronger and/or the monster weaker so they are doing the absolute best they can.

When I mention it being harder to help someone at times, it's when that person isn't pulling his or her weight. If a thief never ws until they had 300% TP because they wanted their damage to be as high as possible...there was a problem. If the ranger solo'd half of their skillchains because they didn't want to wait 10 seconds for the SAM, THF, or WAR to get TP...there was a problem. If the BRD didn't want to cast ballad except at the end of battles and spent the rest of the time meleeing...there was a problem. If the puller runs off while spells were being casted on them...there was a problem.

I try to work around those problems as much as I can. But there does come a point where I say "***** it, they don't seem to care about this so why should I?" After all, I'm doing this to help them, not me (not directly, anyway). Why should I bother helping them if they obviously don't want my help? Sure, it pains me to see a ranger miss a ws. But if they missed it because they moved, ran off, or did it before any enfeebling/enhancing magic could be casted then I have no remorse.

I think that's why you see me talk about "helping" people--or giving suggestions--and you assume that I my actually physically move them or tell them to do things instead of casting the appropriate spells at the appropriate times. Both are examples of helping, but the way you see it must make me seem like some know-it-all know-nothing that shouldn't keep talking. Because of that, you saw what I said as advice from a non-ranger and automatically it meant nothing because I don't play the job so I couldn't possibly understand it. The only way you may have listened to me is if I was a 75 RNG...and even then you may be timid and skeptical. To me, that sounds more to me like hurt pride than rational response.

Everyone is your enemy, no one understands you, everyone is mocking you or out to get you.

The fact is that I'm NOT looking at it from the ranger's perspective, I'm looking at it from the rdm/brd perspective. It's my job to judge the flow of battle and change variables as needed. We have to know where we are, what we want, and how to get there. Why else do you think many rdm/brd are the ones who start the parties?

While helping MAY mean giving suggestions or casting spells, it ALWAYS means knowing what my party is capable of and acting accordingly. I can't act unless I have a handle on what's going on. It doesn't take playing each individual job to do that, just one.

So to bar, cohle, and any other rangers out there who may be reading this and possibly gotten offended, please note:

This was not a player nerf, it was a job nerf. People posting suggestions on these boards aren't doing so because they think you are weak. They're doing it because for years everyone else (including you rangers) have been nice enough to give them tips and suggestions to make their jobs better. In return for your kindness, they are repaying the favor. They are not doing it to be mean or cruel or say that they are now better than you. They are doing it because you are probably going to end up in their party and they want you to have the same efficiency that you demand of them.

You may see yourself as vulnerable right now and if that's the case, I can see why you are defensive. It feels like all eyes are on you but let me assure you...they're not. You are still rangers and will continue to have the same spots in parties unless and until enough of you make the position undesirable for groups. That doesn't mean that everything will remain the same; your class was changed and EVERYONE has to act accordingly. The effects of this patch will not be fully realized for months down the line.

Attacking people because they say that your job dynamics were changed will not fix the fact that your job dynamics were changed. ***** and complain all you want because it is well within your right...but do know that others aren't required to accept self-pity. Realize that neither are you confined to a certain dynamic or even a certain job. Also note that your opinion isn't the only one with bearing. What others have to say matters also--especially if they are not rangers. They see things from a different perspective than your own. Maybe something they have to say can make your job easier or better? There is always room for improvement.

Most of all, remember that it's the player that makes the character and not the other way around. You are only as "gimped" as you allowed yourself to be.


oh and ace: feel free to get into it. I live for this kind of stuff :D

Edited, Fri Jul 29 12:22:16 2005 by SophusTehNewb

Edited, Fri Jul 29 13:18:04 2005 by SophusTehNewb

Cohle, I can't deny that some people do feel vindicated because of this patch. However, those feelings are somewhat misguided and do not represent the majority of us. Otherwise you would have seen a major backlash of ninja tanks (especially by PLD). Many rangers were simply more verbal about it.

Yes, we agree that some (but not all) of the adjustments needed to be made...but that doesn't make us anti-ranger. Neither does agreeing with the need for a change constitute a backlash against the job.

Woot! Sounds fun to me. Too bad you can only have one pet at a time, eh? Muahaha {Burn} {You can have this.} :D I still gotz teh ub3r 1337 Fenrir. :D :P

~Nieko