Hello Shiva server. This post is very serious, and id like to get the opinions of everyone regarding something that happened in game. I will not be nameing names, soo please dont ask.
I was farming of sorts somewhere in vanadiel (im leaving this out also, to prevent anyone from knowing exactly who i am speaking about). Im happily farming for quite a while, when a few other players enter the area im fighting in. An NM does spawn in this area, but im not all that concerned about that, because the chance of it spawning when i was there was very slim, and thats not what this is about anyways. Im rounding up the mobs in this area, and killing them (sometimes one at a time, and sometimes a bunch since they link). One of the other players, begins to compete with me for pulls. I am completly fine wiht this, as the item im looking for isnt even sellable, and the mobs dont drop stuff worth much. However, i noticed that when we would compete for a mob, that this person was moveing at least 4 x's the speed of me. Finding this rather interesting, i was very curious to see what speed + equips this person had on, so i too might be able to score some of it (moveing so fast is a definate bonus for pretty much any situation). Upon checking the player, i see that this player has absolutly no speed+ gear on. Ok i say to myself, maybe the player was useing flee for that one mob. But amazingly enough, this player is moveing all around the area, at this constant fast speed (i would say about 4 x's my speed). All of my filters were off. The person never used any speed altering medicines (i think there is a flee medicine, not positive). The person could not have used flee (or if they did then it lasted for about 8-10 minutes). They didnt have any speed + gear on. I never saw chocobo mazurka being sung, and i heard that doesnt work in dungeons (not sure about that one).
I did a little research, and found out there is a speed hack. It allows you to change your players speed at will i guess (Its not exactly easy to find out exactly how it works).
My dilema:
I am not a snitch. I dont really care much what other people do in this game, so long as it doesnt affect me in a negative manner. And in this instance, it didnt really affect me much. Ive made 2 GM calls in over a year and a half of playing, and neither were about other players. If i dont like someone, i simply /blist and go about my ways. But i have heard of several other people, who have seen this same activity by other players. This means that people are spreading this speed hack around, that is giving people a distinct advantage over me, and those of you who dont cheat. Even if i wanted to cheat, playing on a PS2, makes this impossible (well impossible as far as i know).
The person who was useing this speed hack (i am convinced this was a speed hack, and if someone can offer another explanation, i would be happy to know i am wrong about this) is a very well known person on our server. That makes things even worse for me. If it was someone i had never heard of, and saw them doing this in the dunes on a lvl 15 char with no sub job, i would have just called a GM, and let them handle it (or not whatever they want to do). But being that this person is well known, and even possibly friends with people i know, i choose not to make a GM call. I despise people who cheat to get ahead of others. But most of the cheating thats been going on in this game for so long, is invisible so to speak. Yeah people all of a sudden know when and where an NM is going to spawn, but i can convince myself that it was luck or lots of practice, and i cant see people useing bots ect. But this hack, is very much visible. Its unmistakeable, and if you happen to see someone useing it, you to will be like o.0
So I choose not to make a GM call about this situation. But im positive i should have. Well known or not, cheating is cheating. It is unfair to those of us who cant, or dont want to cheat. I play this game for fun, and other people cheating makes it a lot less fun for me. Especially a cheat, that has the potential to make it impossible for the average player to compete in an NM/HNM situation. Add on top of that, that there might be cheats that do other significant things that i havent seen or heard of, and it sevearly depresses me.
So im asking you all as a community,, what you would have done, and what you think i should have done. Remeber when replying to this, that it could have been your best friend, your oldest game friend, a LS member, your mentor, or even your LS leader. It could have been the person you look up to the most, or the person who has been there for you when youve needed them.
Thanks, and im saddened that i needed to post this. I wish i had never seen this, so i could live my game life in ignorant bliss. But since i now know of it, i feel it is my duty to not only inform everyone of what is possible, but to maybe take action against it as well.
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I'm looking at this from the programmer/administrator side.
One of the things that makes this MMORPG better than something like Diablo is that SE actively tries to undo a person's ability to cheat the system. They don't do it for themselves (directly), they do it for us. They know that the more even things are kept, the more likely people will be to want to *pay* to play. After all, would you pay to play this game if you could dupe gil or items at will?
When SE programmers hear of a way that the system is being beaten, they have to:
1) find out how the person is doing it and
2) create/remove ways so that they cannot do it again
Before they can find out *how* a person is doing it, they need to know *if* a person is doing it. And unless someone tells them, they may never know.
It's been my experience that even the small things count when it comes to hacking a code. The code hack works because it exposes a flaw in the game. Chances are that this guy was just a script kiddie who downloaded the program to be teh aw3somez uuber l33t. But when a real programmer gets his/her hands on that flaw, the results can be devistating.
Example:
1) A person realizes that they can automate the /targetnpc, /provoke <t> functions to grab nms in a confined area. No biggie, they usually get the ph and they can someitmes die.
2) Someone else sees this flaw and expands on it. They tweak that program so that it will only provoke mobs with a certain "image." There goes Ochiudo's Kote, Traveler's Mantle, Serket Rings...
3) A better programmer sees the latest hack for this flaw and expands on it even more. He sniffs packets and notices that the names for nms aren't encrypted in any fashion. Using this information--and techniques from the prior hacks--he creates a better script that not only provokes only the nm, but it tells you exactly when and where the nm will pop. There go about 50% of the notorious monster drops...
4) An even better programmer takes those hacks and puts them together with flaws exposed by other people. Together he creates the Shiva Bot. With it, a person need only turn it on. From there, the bot will tell them when a nm will pop, where it will pop, it will teleport you there AND it will send a packet to the server telling it that you claimed it first. There goes everything else worth camping.
Hard to believe it all started by macroing /targetnpc, /provoke <t>
So it's not so much that this person is using a piddly little program that allows them to run faster. The problem is that they're exploiting the system. When that exploit falls into the wrong hands (and it will), newer hacks will come out that expand on that exploit. If SE knows about it *before* it becomes a problem, that increases the chance they can fix it *before* it becomes a problem.
That is unless unclaimable nms and drastic economic fluctuations are your cup of tea. But hey, running at light speed and stealing items from your mog house are only a couple of lines of code away.
One of the things that makes this MMORPG better than something like Diablo is that SE actively tries to undo a person's ability to cheat the system. They don't do it for themselves (directly), they do it for us. They know that the more even things are kept, the more likely people will be to want to *pay* to play. After all, would you pay to play this game if you could dupe gil or items at will?
When SE programmers hear of a way that the system is being beaten, they have to:
1) find out how the person is doing it and
2) create/remove ways so that they cannot do it again
Before they can find out *how* a person is doing it, they need to know *if* a person is doing it. And unless someone tells them, they may never know.
It's been my experience that even the small things count when it comes to hacking a code. The code hack works because it exposes a flaw in the game. Chances are that this guy was just a script kiddie who downloaded the program to be teh aw3somez uuber l33t. But when a real programmer gets his/her hands on that flaw, the results can be devistating.
Example:
1) A person realizes that they can automate the /targetnpc, /provoke <t> functions to grab nms in a confined area. No biggie, they usually get the ph and they can someitmes die.
2) Someone else sees this flaw and expands on it. They tweak that program so that it will only provoke mobs with a certain "image." There goes Ochiudo's Kote, Traveler's Mantle, Serket Rings...
3) A better programmer sees the latest hack for this flaw and expands on it even more. He sniffs packets and notices that the names for nms aren't encrypted in any fashion. Using this information--and techniques from the prior hacks--he creates a better script that not only provokes only the nm, but it tells you exactly when and where the nm will pop. There go about 50% of the notorious monster drops...
4) An even better programmer takes those hacks and puts them together with flaws exposed by other people. Together he creates the Shiva Bot. With it, a person need only turn it on. From there, the bot will tell them when a nm will pop, where it will pop, it will teleport you there AND it will send a packet to the server telling it that you claimed it first. There goes everything else worth camping.
Hard to believe it all started by macroing /targetnpc, /provoke <t>
So it's not so much that this person is using a piddly little program that allows them to run faster. The problem is that they're exploiting the system. When that exploit falls into the wrong hands (and it will), newer hacks will come out that expand on that exploit. If SE knows about it *before* it becomes a problem, that increases the chance they can fix it *before* it becomes a problem.
That is unless unclaimable nms and drastic economic fluctuations are your cup of tea. But hey, running at light speed and stealing items from your mog house are only a couple of lines of code away.
Quote:
The person who was useing this speed hack (i am convinced this was a speed hack, and if someone can offer another explanation, i would be happy to know i am wrong about this) is a very well known person on our server. That makes things even worse for me.
I agree with much, if not all of your beliefs and ethics of gameplay which is stated in your post. Given the situation where this *person* was competing with you so to speak; you certainly were entitled to use the *check* function. I think what I probably would have done since this person is known to you, and well known as you said server wide, is to have a discussion with him. Bring it out in the open.
I appreciate honesty and if someone thought something about me that could affect my professionalism in game or community I guess I would want to know even if it made me mad. ;/
If it's bothering you that much to bring it to the forums; there's probably only one person who can really answer your question and hopefully they would be truthful.
Just my opinion.
Quote:
there's probably only one person who can really answer your question
*polishes knuckles*
Yep yep, anytime :)
Sorry ladies, I'm taken
Quote:
I agree with much, if not all of your beliefs and ethics of gameplay which is stated in your post. Given the situation where this *person* was competing with you so to speak; you certainly were entitled to use the *check* function. I think what I probably would have done since this person is known to you, and well known as you said server wide, is to have a discussion with him. Bring it out in the open.
I appreciate honesty and if someone thought something about me that could affect my professionalism in game or community I guess I would want to know even if it made me mad. ;/
If it's bothering you that much to bring it to the forums; there's probably only one person who can really answer your question and hopefully they would be truthful.
Just my opinion.
I appreciate honesty and if someone thought something about me that could affect my professionalism in game or community I guess I would want to know even if it made me mad. ;/
If it's bothering you that much to bring it to the forums; there's probably only one person who can really answer your question and hopefully they would be truthful.
Just my opinion.
The person is well known, but i dont know them personally. In fact i dont recall ever even speaking to this person.
But i agree, i should have said somethign to them. I never even thought of that option. What a dilema though ><
i bet i could guess who it is.... but i wont. my recommendation is to report it for the simple fact that noone is above the "law" in-game and players should always be able to count on a level playing field so the game is fair. just my 2 cents
Now it's time to take a look at the process of law. If you've ever seen a police officer's badge, you'll notice that it's a shield. This symbolizes how the police protect those they serve, regardless of the person's political ranking.
In a perfect world, law would be enforced.
But we're not perfect.
Quite often does a person's social and political stance in the world protect them from the law's not so omnipotent hold. We call this a "Tarnished Shield", as it isn't fully doing its job of protecting the people.
GMs are alot like the police of our little made up world. They're here to look after us. However, they can't do anything if they don't know anything is occuring. Even if the guy is your best friend... if he is breaking the virtual law we have set, you should try and talk him out of it. Discourage him from hacking, tell him you know that he's doing this. If he keeps on doing it, it is your duty as a player and concerned citizen of this world to report him. If you keep "turning the other cheek" so to say, crimes like this can pick up. What is a speed hack now turns into a packet sniff, then the packet sniff goes to a God mode hack, then the god mode hack goes to a 100% drop hack and before you know it, the law is useless and our world is virtually destroyed. A Tarnished Shiled can always be polished and fixed, but if you ignore it it will eventually rust and become useless. This is the same case. You have to confront the guy and let him know you know he's hacking. Warn him that if you see him again doing it, you'll report him. If he doesn't stop, you have to report him. It's not snitching, it's helping keep a structure in our society.
To sum up this post in much simpler terms...
If you give a mouse a cookie...
In a perfect world, law would be enforced.
But we're not perfect.
Quite often does a person's social and political stance in the world protect them from the law's not so omnipotent hold. We call this a "Tarnished Shield", as it isn't fully doing its job of protecting the people.
GMs are alot like the police of our little made up world. They're here to look after us. However, they can't do anything if they don't know anything is occuring. Even if the guy is your best friend... if he is breaking the virtual law we have set, you should try and talk him out of it. Discourage him from hacking, tell him you know that he's doing this. If he keeps on doing it, it is your duty as a player and concerned citizen of this world to report him. If you keep "turning the other cheek" so to say, crimes like this can pick up. What is a speed hack now turns into a packet sniff, then the packet sniff goes to a God mode hack, then the god mode hack goes to a 100% drop hack and before you know it, the law is useless and our world is virtually destroyed. A Tarnished Shiled can always be polished and fixed, but if you ignore it it will eventually rust and become useless. This is the same case. You have to confront the guy and let him know you know he's hacking. Warn him that if you see him again doing it, you'll report him. If he doesn't stop, you have to report him. It's not snitching, it's helping keep a structure in our society.
To sum up this post in much simpler terms...
If you give a mouse a cookie...
Now it's time to take a look at the process of law. If you've ever seen a police officer's badge, you'll notice that it's a shield. This symbolizes how the police protect those they serve, regardless of the person's political ranking.
In a perfect world, law would be enforced.
But we're not perfect.
Quite often does a person's social and political stance in the world protect them from the law's not so omnipotent hold. We call this a "Tarnished Shield", as it isn't fully doing its job of protecting the people.
GMs are alot like the police of our little made up world. They're here to look after us. However, they can't do anything if they don't know anything is occuring. Even if the guy is your best friend... if he is breaking the virtual law we have set, you should try and talk him out of it. Discourage him from hacking, tell him you know that he's doing this. If he keeps on doing it, it is your duty as a player and concerned citizen of this world to report him. If you keep "turning the other cheek" so to say, crimes like this can pick up. What is a speed hack now turns into a packet sniff, then the packet sniff goes to a God mode hack, then the god mode hack goes to a 100% drop hack and before you know it, the law is useless and our world is virtually destroyed. A Tarnished Shiled can always be polished and fixed, but if you ignore it it will eventually rust and become useless. This is the same case. You have to confront the guy and let him know you know he's hacking. Warn him that if you see him again doing it, you'll report him. If he doesn't stop, you have to report him. It's not snitching, it's helping keep a structure in our society.
To sum up this post in much simpler terms...
If you give a mouse a cookie...
In a perfect world, law would be enforced.
But we're not perfect.
Quite often does a person's social and political stance in the world protect them from the law's not so omnipotent hold. We call this a "Tarnished Shield", as it isn't fully doing its job of protecting the people.
GMs are alot like the police of our little made up world. They're here to look after us. However, they can't do anything if they don't know anything is occuring. Even if the guy is your best friend... if he is breaking the virtual law we have set, you should try and talk him out of it. Discourage him from hacking, tell him you know that he's doing this. If he keeps on doing it, it is your duty as a player and concerned citizen of this world to report him. If you keep "turning the other cheek" so to say, crimes like this can pick up. What is a speed hack now turns into a packet sniff, then the packet sniff goes to a God mode hack, then the god mode hack goes to a 100% drop hack and before you know it, the law is useless and our world is virtually destroyed. A Tarnished Shiled can always be polished and fixed, but if you ignore it it will eventually rust and become useless. This is the same case. You have to confront the guy and let him know you know he's hacking. Warn him that if you see him again doing it, you'll report him. If he doesn't stop, you have to report him. It's not snitching, it's helping keep a structure in our society.
To sum up this post in much simpler terms...
If you give a mouse a cookie...
Double-posting is this year's orange
You really think its my place to confront someone i dont personally know? Especially someone wiht a lot of pull on our server?
If you're really worried about confronting them, GM calls are anonymous. If you're not worried then what could it hurt? Maybe if he knows that people are on to him he won't be as apt to do it? And if he just started using it, better he find out now than after he's been addicted to it beyond the point of return.
My own opinion, but if he's using it to farm he probably won't give it up anyway. He's not "hurting" anyone if all he's doing is farming (or so he may think). He probably found out from a friend, so if his friend does it it can't be that bad?
But all it took you was a quick search for you to find out about the speed hack. What's to stop more-scrupulous players from doing the same thing and using it for their own benefit?
Mining points...harvesting points...nms.... I hope you rule-abiding players brought your powder boots. Once good ways to beat the system are found, everyone exploits it. Rabao lag, anyone?
My own opinion, but if he's using it to farm he probably won't give it up anyway. He's not "hurting" anyone if all he's doing is farming (or so he may think). He probably found out from a friend, so if his friend does it it can't be that bad?
But all it took you was a quick search for you to find out about the speed hack. What's to stop more-scrupulous players from doing the same thing and using it for their own benefit?
Mining points...harvesting points...nms.... I hope you rule-abiding players brought your powder boots. Once good ways to beat the system are found, everyone exploits it. Rabao lag, anyone?
Well if its a JP player dont even bother with it. We all know SE and GMs dont do jack **** to JP players. They been botting for 3 years and get away it with it. The 1st Na person to not gets banned. Kinda funny isnt it.
If I were you I would watch the "suspect" closely for a while at different times over a few days. If they continue to compete with you for claims and you seriously think its a hack call a GM. They are able to see speed hacks too and will deal with the "suspect". If they never come back with their hack forget about it and let them get busted somewhere else. Using a hack like that against others will eventually get them jailed, banned or both. Something like that happened to me in Ordelle's Caves. I was watching gil sellers zoom to the pop spot of Stroper Chymes in the big rooms seconds before they appeared. After watching them for a week or so I called a GM and after pressing the issue he took my complaint and asked for the names of the ones I suspected. Next day gil sellers all gone. They came back the day after but noticably tamed running for claims the old fashioned way. Still, quick by average player standards but not blatantly using their hacks. If they were just goofing off let it pass. If they return and take an unfair advantage over you any more report their asses. If you are wrong the GM will figure that out too. Good luck.
if you're afraid of the person because they are "well-known", then just drop this whole damn thing entirely. you're afraid of something stupid, so what if many people know who he is? he's being accused of wrong-doing so report him.
you posted this whole thing, what is it you want? justice? people agreeing? if its the first, then report him. if its the second, don't bother wasting our time with this post.
i feel i will be rated down for making people angry, but thats how life works
you posted this whole thing, what is it you want? justice? people agreeing? if its the first, then report him. if its the second, don't bother wasting our time with this post.
i feel i will be rated down for making people angry, but thats how life works
Nah, Taterz. I rated you up, but only because your name started with a "T". Anyway, if it is a big deal, report the person. The person has "big pull" on the server? So what, this is a game. Unless they are connected to the mob, he/she can't do jack to you. Maybe that person is reading this thread as we speak, and already knows that you know. If it was worth posting, maybe you should report it.
Quote:
Well if its a JP player dont even bother with it. We all know SE and GMs dont do jack sh*t to JP players. They been botting for 3 years and get away it with it. The 1st Na person to not gets banned. Kinda funny isnt it.
Not even worth a response ><
Quote:
If I were you I would watch the "suspect" closely for a while at different times over a few days. If they continue to compete with you for claims and you seriously think its a hack call a GM. They are able to see speed hacks too and will deal with the "suspect". If they never come back with their hack forget about it and let them get busted somewhere else. Using a hack like that against others will eventually get them jailed, banned or both. Something like that happened to me in Ordelle's Caves. I was watching gil sellers zoom to the pop spot of Stroper Chymes in the big rooms seconds before they appeared. After watching them for a week or so I called a GM and after pressing the issue he took my complaint and asked for the names of the ones I suspected. Next day gil sellers all gone. They came back the day after but noticably tamed running for claims the old fashioned way. Still, quick by average player standards but not blatantly using their hacks. If they were just goofing off let it pass. If they return and take an unfair advantage over you any more report their asses. If you are wrong the GM will figure that out too. Good luck.
Im not going to follow this person around, and see if they do it again. Im sure they were just messing around, but how long before there useing it as an unfair advantage?
Quote:
if you're afraid of the person because they are "well-known", then just drop this whole damn thing entirely. you're afraid of something stupid, so what if many people know who he is? he's being accused of wrong-doing so report him.
you posted this whole thing, what is it you want? justice? people agreeing? if its the first, then report him. if its the second, don't bother wasting our time with this post.
i feel i will be rated down for making people angry, but thats how life works
you posted this whole thing, what is it you want? justice? people agreeing? if its the first, then report him. if its the second, don't bother wasting our time with this post.
i feel i will be rated down for making people angry, but thats how life works
Afraid is hardly the term i would use. I enjoy my game time, and wouldnt want it to be ruined, because someone well know, sends their goons after me, burns my reputation or likewise. And even then, i doubt im the only one who has seen this. I am not afraid to report this person, and the reason i asked for the opinions of the entire community, was so that i could get some help deciding what i will be doing. No one person will make me feel one way or another, but the opinions of the masses, might shed light upon the situation, that i had not thought of.
Do i want the person to get banned? No. Do i want the person to stop cheating? YES!!!
Quote:
Nah, Taterz. I rated you up, but only because your name started with a "T". Anyway, if it is a big deal, report the person. The person has "big pull" on the server? So what, this is a game. Unless they are connected to the mob, he/she can't do jack to you. Maybe that person is reading this thread as we speak, and already knows that you know. If it was worth posting, maybe you should report it.
I actually hope the person does read this, and stops cheating. If they do, please PM me, and ill refrain from reporting it to a GM. (you know who you are)
I wont rate you down taterz, but i also dont feel you deserve a rate up.
Speaking of goons, just find out where he lives and bust his kneecaps. Then he has an excuse to want to his character to run faster.
Because irl he can't run at all ;)
Because irl he can't run at all ;)
why do i get the feeling this person is leader of or someone important in a HNM ls lol
Quote:
Im not going to follow this person around, and see if they do it again. Im sure they were just messing around, but how long before there useing it as an unfair advantage?
I wasn't suggesting you follow them around. What I meant was if they keep returning to the area you are farming and directly competing with you using their hack. If so, watch them a bit. You may not be seeing a hack. It could be something as silly as lag on your connection. Report them if they keep messing with you. I was suggesting watching them before you call a GM so you don't waste the GM's time and your own.
Since you did post this question and it appears we all agree you should call a GM, I think you must now do it and let us know what happens.
Edited, Mon Sep 26 14:55:36 2005 by Cornnholio
In all due honesty people who use unfair hacks like that are on the same lvl as gil-sellers/buyers. They can't get anywhere in-game w/o having an advantage over everyone else who plays. If the player in question is so well known then others must have noticed but like you said fear the reprecussions if word got out of who reported them. In game status should not be a protective shield that a player can abuse simply becasue "people know me, no one will say anything." The best option for such players is complete account deletion, which SE already has done before but maybe they should add an gil or item incentive for reporting a confirmed hacker.
I've known you since we pted in dunes with your WAR so whatever choice you make will probably be the right one Ace.
I've known you since we pted in dunes with your WAR so whatever choice you make will probably be the right one Ace.
Quote:
I've known you since we pted in dunes with your WAR so whatever choice you make will probably be the right one Ace.
Ahh the good ole days huh!!
I am still pondering, and i will be sure to let everyone know what the outcome is. I probably wouldnt even find out if any action is taken, but i dont need to know anyways.
Ive been waiting for you all day MR. Troll, why have you been hiding?
Please say something that deserves a witty response, this last post is not even worht a reply.
Please say something that deserves a witty response, this last post is not even worht a reply.
I just heard from someone in game, that a player was suspended for useing this speed hack (and it wasnt the same person). No names, but a warning to those useing it, you will get suspended, and or banned.
Also one of these people rated me down. Its ok, but ill figure out who, and make a note of it for future reference.
acepod, BarchielReturns, Casshern, Cornnholio, kurganwd, MassiveHeadContusion, meatwadbdumb, NuclearMayhem, RevenantVDA, revoninuk, Ryld, ShadowmonkCoB, SKPohina, TeChNoFiRe,
Rate up for everyone else.
EDIT they rated meatwadbdumb
up also, another troll to play wiht.
Edited, Mon Sep 26 15:55:00 2005 by acepod
Also one of these people rated me down. Its ok, but ill figure out who, and make a note of it for future reference.
acepod, BarchielReturns, Casshern, Cornnholio, kurganwd, MassiveHeadContusion, meatwadbdumb, NuclearMayhem, RevenantVDA, revoninuk, Ryld, ShadowmonkCoB, SKPohina, TeChNoFiRe,
Rate up for everyone else.
EDIT they rated meatwadbdumb
up also, another troll to play wiht.
Edited, Mon Sep 26 15:55:00 2005 by acepod
Quote:
Also one of these people rated me down. Its ok, but ill figure out who, and make a note of it for future reference.
acepod, BarchielReturns, Casshern, Cornnholio, kurganwd, MassiveHeadContusion, meatwadbdumb, NuclearMayhem, RevenantVDA, revoninuk, Ryld, ShadowmonkCoB, SKPohina, TeChNoFiRe,
acepod, BarchielReturns, Casshern, Cornnholio, kurganwd, MassiveHeadContusion, meatwadbdumb, NuclearMayhem, RevenantVDA, revoninuk, Ryld, ShadowmonkCoB, SKPohina, TeChNoFiRe,
i did not rate up or down you or anyone else who posted here.
FYI it was OMFG that was doing it.
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