The question is, why?
If I take Blacksmithing, and I ask "what should I take to go along with it?" people inevitably say "Mining, unless you want to spend all your money on reagents."
This doesn't make economic sense. By using your own metal to skillup your blacksmithing, you are not "saving money". You are still denying yourself the income you would have got from selling the bars. You have still invested the time in gathering.
Why don't we see more characters with unlinked gatherer/crafter pairs?
If I was an engineer, the first instinct is to also be a miner. However, there are plenty of people farming metal. If another gathering profession (disenchanting for exampe) could give me the same money/time ratio as the linked gathering profession, then wouldn't it be a better idea to pick an unlinked gathering profession, sell the materials, and then buy the materials you need for your manufacturing profession?
So I could for example be a Miner/Alchemist. I could sell all the metal I mine, and buy all the herbs I need (in general Mining is considered a more profitable gathering profession than Herbalism, so for the same investment of time, I could gather goods with a higher value, sell them, and use the gold to buy more herbs than I could have gathered given the same quantity of time).
Or, in a more mathematical way:
With Mining I can gather trade goods worth X gold in 1 hour.
With Herbalism I can gather trade goods worth Y gold in 1 hour.
Common consensus (whether or not it is true) says that X>Y.
So rather than gathering herbs for 1 hour and using the results (Y gold worth of herbs) to make potions, I mine for 1 hour, sell the trade goods and use the gold to buy herbs. I then use those herbs (X gold worth of herbs, where X>Y) to make potions.
= more skillups/crafted goods for less investment of time.
Obviously there are two factors which haven't been taken into account.
The first is the farming factor. People don't generally go out and gather for 1 hour. People generally gather as they go along. Does Mining still provide more gold than Herbalism in this case? If this is the case then the principle ought to still hold water, only in reverse (take Blacksmithing/Herbalism, sell the herbs and buy the metal).
The other is the economic supply/demand factor - if everybody did this then obviously the price of metal would crash and the price of herbs would skyrocket. However, it seems like there might be a little imbalance in the economy here that could make a tidy little profit for a few enterprising individuals...
Thoughts?
TF
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Taking Gathering and Crafting professions in pairs?Follow
Actually this is not that bad of an idea. With my level 23 Dwarf warrior, who is an Engineer/miner, i have leveled up Engineering to the point that i need Iron and Heavy stone to level it up any more. I have had to buy many reagents in order to skill up my profession. Honestly, i am to the point that if i was to go out and farm more metals, and exclusively sell them in the AH, and save up money to buy Iron and Heavy stone, and soon, the next highest stone, I would come out better. At my level i am forced to either wait and level up so that i have a chance to actually mine more valuable ores, or buy them.
On the other hand, being able to go get your own materials can save time. I have often seen overpriced materials in the AH, and using the Trade channel might get a slightly lower price, but you do not get many replies. I can not count the times that i have seen an item priced low, but not have a buyout price. It can put you in the situation of spending more money on materials than normal, rather than going out and collecting at least a portion of them yourself.
Furthermore, the strategy of picking two gathering skills looks good. By picking something like skinning/mining and going with that until about level 40, and then drop one to pick up a crafting skill such as Leatherworking, you could come out pretty good. By that time, you would be making enough money that you could buy all your materials, and sell the stuff you have collected. Then, drop your other profession to pick up another. Then what is the disadvantage? Simple, you would possibly miss out on having some useful items when you need them, and you would spend a lot of time leveling up your new skill. Also, what happens when nobody is selling what you need?
I think that it really comes down to preference. If you want to supply yourself as you level up, then you could go with picking 2 related skills. If you wanted to still supply stuff for yourself, but make money at the same time, go with 2 unrelated skills. If you are out to make money, then go with 2 gathering skills, and then later drop them and buy the materials for your production skills, the higher leveled items by then would sell better than any metals or skins you have.
Good idea though, I don't know how it would actually work out though.
On the other hand, being able to go get your own materials can save time. I have often seen overpriced materials in the AH, and using the Trade channel might get a slightly lower price, but you do not get many replies. I can not count the times that i have seen an item priced low, but not have a buyout price. It can put you in the situation of spending more money on materials than normal, rather than going out and collecting at least a portion of them yourself.
Furthermore, the strategy of picking two gathering skills looks good. By picking something like skinning/mining and going with that until about level 40, and then drop one to pick up a crafting skill such as Leatherworking, you could come out pretty good. By that time, you would be making enough money that you could buy all your materials, and sell the stuff you have collected. Then, drop your other profession to pick up another. Then what is the disadvantage? Simple, you would possibly miss out on having some useful items when you need them, and you would spend a lot of time leveling up your new skill. Also, what happens when nobody is selling what you need?
I think that it really comes down to preference. If you want to supply yourself as you level up, then you could go with picking 2 related skills. If you wanted to still supply stuff for yourself, but make money at the same time, go with 2 unrelated skills. If you are out to make money, then go with 2 gathering skills, and then later drop them and buy the materials for your production skills, the higher leveled items by then would sell better than any metals or skins you have.
Good idea though, I don't know how it would actually work out though.
I commend you on a atempt to Work outside the system, but i see a few factors that will stifle you progress(not stop you, just slow stuff down)
1: Mining as a Alchemest,Probly the most realistic of the choices. The issue comes in Endgame when a Alchemest wants to make Flasks(high end alchemy) and it comes time to go get some Black Lotus... ya that BoP herb, so take this route, and their will be no flasks for you. So while this would serve you well for a chunk of the game, it will not work if you plan to take alchemy to its fullest. One note is that this dose not make a alchemest useless,as flasks are kind of overrated with some taking at least a full stack of herbs only to have the effect removed by a death or possibly a purge(I havent made a flask since i got mine purged off me,sheesh 45 mana to remove a ½hr spend gathering herbs). This profession combo coudl still transmute(and do so well as they have their owne supply of metals) and would make some good money on arcanite transmution*.(more on this later)
2:The flower Picking engineer/smith,Now that the rediclous price of kingsblood has gone down on most servers herbest are not the gold factroy they were before. Herbs have a few issues, firstly they are used mainly by Alchemest only(i belive icecap is used for a few other things), While metal is used by Smiths(not the band, Their bigest consumbabe was hair gel,I am dating myself with this one) and engineers doubbeling the demand for metals and gems(o ya gems are some good money). Seconly is the low end herbs have next to zero value,up to kingsblood(becasue it is used for a quest)you will be hard pressed to sell any herbs, While Copper can be sold for a fair price and almost always sells if the price is right. When herbs start selling (kingsblood and up) a median price for a stack of midrange herbs is about 2-5 gold(thats good money IMHO), some sell for more(Ghostmushrroms and the like. Next is the numbr of herbs vs ore,In any given zone their will be 2-4 diffrent types of nodes, but the same zone will have 3-5 diffrent types of herbs(well not the SG/tanris)meaning that you will use up more spance making full stacks(I know stone takes up space as do gems, but are useualy still limited in wich ones a gather is collecing)
I could go on and on, but I will not subject ya to much more. I have a few relevent sub points.
A: Avaliblity, you cant always find what you want in a pricerange you can afford at the AH, but you can usualy go gather some, if my alchemest wants to make frostoil, and a stack of winterbite is either overpriced (Say 2X what you are willing to pay)or just not for sale at that time, you are boned(and most folks dont like that)my freind who droped Herbelsem for Mining ran in to this issue, she complains to this day how much she spend on training Mining only to drop it and swich back.
B:Bleeding economy, With a method of using the AH to aquire Mats never forget You are makeing the Auctioneer money with this, and a decent chunk at that, The more times you go to buy mats, the poster looses some money on posting in the AH, and they usualy pass that on to you, so realisticly, you do save money by gatehring yourself.
Except that demand on metal will always be higher, since Smithing takes so much metal and Alchemy takes reletivly low amount of herbs(unless you are making flasks but.....you cant if you are not a herbelest)
OK I am stoping now, My opinion, is while it is a good topic, and gives a playing feild to discuss this stuff, it just dosent work. But thats just me
Please keep this discusison going, I want to see otehrs opinions.
*Making Arcanite bars, shees kind of funny that sellign the crystal, then selling the transmute service makes about 20% average more money than just posting the bar.... Go figure, Heck I have seen the bar for cheaper than the crystal.
1: Mining as a Alchemest,Probly the most realistic of the choices. The issue comes in Endgame when a Alchemest wants to make Flasks(high end alchemy) and it comes time to go get some Black Lotus... ya that BoP herb, so take this route, and their will be no flasks for you. So while this would serve you well for a chunk of the game, it will not work if you plan to take alchemy to its fullest. One note is that this dose not make a alchemest useless,as flasks are kind of overrated with some taking at least a full stack of herbs only to have the effect removed by a death or possibly a purge(I havent made a flask since i got mine purged off me,sheesh 45 mana to remove a ½hr spend gathering herbs). This profession combo coudl still transmute(and do so well as they have their owne supply of metals) and would make some good money on arcanite transmution*.(more on this later)
2:The flower Picking engineer/smith,Now that the rediclous price of kingsblood has gone down on most servers herbest are not the gold factroy they were before. Herbs have a few issues, firstly they are used mainly by Alchemest only(i belive icecap is used for a few other things), While metal is used by Smiths(not the band, Their bigest consumbabe was hair gel,I am dating myself with this one) and engineers doubbeling the demand for metals and gems(o ya gems are some good money). Seconly is the low end herbs have next to zero value,up to kingsblood(becasue it is used for a quest)you will be hard pressed to sell any herbs, While Copper can be sold for a fair price and almost always sells if the price is right. When herbs start selling (kingsblood and up) a median price for a stack of midrange herbs is about 2-5 gold(thats good money IMHO), some sell for more(Ghostmushrroms and the like. Next is the numbr of herbs vs ore,In any given zone their will be 2-4 diffrent types of nodes, but the same zone will have 3-5 diffrent types of herbs(well not the SG/tanris)meaning that you will use up more spance making full stacks(I know stone takes up space as do gems, but are useualy still limited in wich ones a gather is collecing)
I could go on and on, but I will not subject ya to much more. I have a few relevent sub points.
A: Avaliblity, you cant always find what you want in a pricerange you can afford at the AH, but you can usualy go gather some, if my alchemest wants to make frostoil, and a stack of winterbite is either overpriced (Say 2X what you are willing to pay)or just not for sale at that time, you are boned(and most folks dont like that)my freind who droped Herbelsem for Mining ran in to this issue, she complains to this day how much she spend on training Mining only to drop it and swich back.
B:Bleeding economy, With a method of using the AH to aquire Mats never forget You are makeing the Auctioneer money with this, and a decent chunk at that, The more times you go to buy mats, the poster looses some money on posting in the AH, and they usualy pass that on to you, so realisticly, you do save money by gatehring yourself.
Quote:
The other is the economic supply/demand factor - if everybody did this then obviously the price of metal would crash and the price of herbs would skyrocket
Except that demand on metal will always be higher, since Smithing takes so much metal and Alchemy takes reletivly low amount of herbs(unless you are making flasks but.....you cant if you are not a herbelest)
OK I am stoping now, My opinion, is while it is a good topic, and gives a playing feild to discuss this stuff, it just dosent work. But thats just me
Please keep this discusison going, I want to see otehrs opinions.
*Making Arcanite bars, shees kind of funny that sellign the crystal, then selling the transmute service makes about 20% average more money than just posting the bar.... Go figure, Heck I have seen the bar for cheaper than the crystal.
It's like that on my server too. I think it's quite strange, especially seeing as the tailoring transmute goes for about 15G (with the Felcloth going for between 50s-2g each)...
The thing is, I don't see why Mooncloth is in more demand...
Sure, everyone wants a Mooncloth Robe, but 4 Mooncloth isn't too hard to come by. There are a handful of people on my server in a position to be buying Gloves of Spell Mastery of Belt of the Archmage, but nobody wants the level 300 chest peices (truefaith, of the void, etc) because your epic sets are better.
Arcanite on the other hand is needed in huge quantities for high-level melee classes...
(not like I'm complaining. a free 13g every 4 days is quite nice. considering levelling a few rogues to 35 on the same server just to transmute Mooncloth for me). I can level 1-35 in about 30 hours of play (at a casual rate). Seems worth it for a steady, no-effort 13g/4 days income)
I didn't know that Black Lotus was BoP (never taken a herbalist to high level). Still it might be worth taking Mining/Alchemy at level 10 (especially as the low level herbs are dirt cheap on the Auction House) until you start to need the stuff for the flasks.
On the other hand, farming Arcane Crystals yourself is one thing that is very likely to make you a profit (even if you just sell them).
Edited, Sat Aug 6 05:41:12 2005 by TyrionFarseer
The thing is, I don't see why Mooncloth is in more demand...
Sure, everyone wants a Mooncloth Robe, but 4 Mooncloth isn't too hard to come by. There are a handful of people on my server in a position to be buying Gloves of Spell Mastery of Belt of the Archmage, but nobody wants the level 300 chest peices (truefaith, of the void, etc) because your epic sets are better.
Arcanite on the other hand is needed in huge quantities for high-level melee classes...
(not like I'm complaining. a free 13g every 4 days is quite nice. considering levelling a few rogues to 35 on the same server just to transmute Mooncloth for me). I can level 1-35 in about 30 hours of play (at a casual rate). Seems worth it for a steady, no-effort 13g/4 days income)
I didn't know that Black Lotus was BoP (never taken a herbalist to high level). Still it might be worth taking Mining/Alchemy at level 10 (especially as the low level herbs are dirt cheap on the Auction House) until you start to need the stuff for the flasks.
On the other hand, farming Arcane Crystals yourself is one thing that is very likely to make you a profit (even if you just sell them).
Edited, Sat Aug 6 05:41:12 2005 by TyrionFarseer
Starting in patch 1.7, the black lotus is supposed to be changed to BoE I believe. Besides, it's only used to make flasks and I don't think many people make those. I've been a 300 alchemist for a long time now, and have a half-dozen Black Lotus, but I've never seen a flask recipe drop and I'm not about to pay hundreds of gold for a recipe I don't plan to use.
On another note, there seems to be more miners than herbalists, so I while I could understand going herbalist/blacksmith, going miner/alchemist might end up costing you more in the long run. On my server, the higher level herbs cost 10-20g a stack and it doesn't take all that long to gather them, so it's fairly easy to make 50-100g a day while most of the farmers are miners and have the veins on a timer or something letting them claim them all.
As for myself, I have 5 chars (although I don't play them all that much and 3 are between 10-30). My 2 mains are tailor/enchanter and herbalist alchemist. For the others, I made the 3 of them herbalists, 2 have mining as a second prof and the last is another tailor so I can one day get more mooncloth. Once you've found what you like, it's pretty easy to make other chars and get them to a half decent level to be used as gatherers to make some money, so you should just pick 2 professions that you like and eventually if you find you need something more, you can always create alts to help.
On another note, there seems to be more miners than herbalists, so I while I could understand going herbalist/blacksmith, going miner/alchemist might end up costing you more in the long run. On my server, the higher level herbs cost 10-20g a stack and it doesn't take all that long to gather them, so it's fairly easy to make 50-100g a day while most of the farmers are miners and have the veins on a timer or something letting them claim them all.
As for myself, I have 5 chars (although I don't play them all that much and 3 are between 10-30). My 2 mains are tailor/enchanter and herbalist alchemist. For the others, I made the 3 of them herbalists, 2 have mining as a second prof and the last is another tailor so I can one day get more mooncloth. Once you've found what you like, it's pretty easy to make other chars and get them to a half decent level to be used as gatherers to make some money, so you should just pick 2 professions that you like and eventually if you find you need something more, you can always create alts to help.
The only real drawback I see to it right off the bat is the availability issue that someone mentioned before. Most of the time when I go to the AH for metals, someone has bought it all and hiked the price up for resell, so I just go out and get my own. Making my profession wholly dependent on the AH for mats . . . well, that just doesn't sit well with me at all.
That said, if you chose to have a gatherer alt, like a Druid miner/herbalist (Druid makes the best gatherer imo, underwater form, travel form etc), then I could see a real usefulness in some different combos. I'm thinking about making an engineer/blacksmith myself. Of course, with mining/herbalism you'd only be able to have one on the minimap at a time. With mine I set it to scan for herbs and just keep an eye out for ore deposits.
There's my 2 cents.
That said, if you chose to have a gatherer alt, like a Druid miner/herbalist (Druid makes the best gatherer imo, underwater form, travel form etc), then I could see a real usefulness in some different combos. I'm thinking about making an engineer/blacksmith myself. Of course, with mining/herbalism you'd only be able to have one on the minimap at a time. With mine I set it to scan for herbs and just keep an eye out for ore deposits.
There's my 2 cents.
Quote:
The only real drawback I see to it right off the bat is the availability issue
*nods* the problem obviously comes when you need something that is either in so much demand that people snap it up, or in so little demand that nobody bothers to list it...
On the one hand I think it's worth a try.
On the other hand I think it might be more worthwhile and less effort just gathering while you level, and gathering with your alts as well. My main in an enchanter/tailor, so the only thing I really need to gather is gold. However, if I had a Herbalist/Alchemist and a Miner/Blacksmith you could bet that my next character would be a Miner/Herbalist.
On the other hand, I don't like to spend time specifically gathering. I prefer just to gather as I go along, picking up whatever I pass. Farming bores me I'm afraid.
TF
Some might consider me the Queen of alts....as I have many to choose from (ok so sue me....I like lvling in rested xp...don't mind waiting longer to get my whole crew to 60, instead of spending 2x as long lvling my little cast individually in purple).
I actually have had a pretty good lvl of success by making my 60 a pure gatherer....with mining and skinning. This allows me to mail the mats to any/all smith/eng/leather folks...as well as the the occasional leather to tailors.
My results? This has both made and saved me a HUGE amount of money. I expect to double efficiency when my Rogue hits 60 as well...since she has herbal/enchant. This will let me gather ALL mats needed.
There is one other HUGE benefit to be had from using this method.
By mailing all mats instead of trying to craft/bank....I find I have saved a LOT of time in travel...and rarely have pack space issues. Instead of holding on to those rarer drop mats hoping for the last couple of things needed to craft one item....I simply mail everything to the person I have set to receive it at that time. This means that short of my tools and staple travel gear, I rarely if ever find myself totally stuffed on packspace and faced with dumping mats.
This has also allowed me to lvl crafting in a bare minimum of time and effort, as I can grab the number of mats needed (the reagent calculator addon from curse-gaming.com/mod.php is awesome in getting this figured ahead of time) to get my gains in, and set it to run through them.
Also....last note on this one that is a BIG bonus: By making your main a pure gatherer, you pay nothing more than 5g 66s in training costs. No patterns to buy, no hidden expenses. Mail what your crafter alts NEED for their gains....if they turn out not to need it, you AH overstock, and return profits as needed to main. You will still make way more than you are spending...and I have found that if you bring the correct amount of mats to IF or ORG and simply look for someone who has the pattern, you can almost always find someone who will craft the item for you...either free if they are just wanting gains, or via tipping....either way, it is still cheaper than buying the patterns and such. Crafters are cool accessories in this game...but in honesty, the first character someone has is better off just gathering and making money to fund a comfy existence.
+++crap i thought i was done!!!!!!!! one last note: If you do use this method....you can also make note of which crafting items you make for gains are used in quests. Mail them to whichever alts are currently questing in that zone, and you can frequently pick up quick and easy money by selling on the spot what folks need to turn in that quest.
I actually have had a pretty good lvl of success by making my 60 a pure gatherer....with mining and skinning. This allows me to mail the mats to any/all smith/eng/leather folks...as well as the the occasional leather to tailors.
My results? This has both made and saved me a HUGE amount of money. I expect to double efficiency when my Rogue hits 60 as well...since she has herbal/enchant. This will let me gather ALL mats needed.
There is one other HUGE benefit to be had from using this method.
By mailing all mats instead of trying to craft/bank....I find I have saved a LOT of time in travel...and rarely have pack space issues. Instead of holding on to those rarer drop mats hoping for the last couple of things needed to craft one item....I simply mail everything to the person I have set to receive it at that time. This means that short of my tools and staple travel gear, I rarely if ever find myself totally stuffed on packspace and faced with dumping mats.
This has also allowed me to lvl crafting in a bare minimum of time and effort, as I can grab the number of mats needed (the reagent calculator addon from curse-gaming.com/mod.php is awesome in getting this figured ahead of time) to get my gains in, and set it to run through them.
Also....last note on this one that is a BIG bonus: By making your main a pure gatherer, you pay nothing more than 5g 66s in training costs. No patterns to buy, no hidden expenses. Mail what your crafter alts NEED for their gains....if they turn out not to need it, you AH overstock, and return profits as needed to main. You will still make way more than you are spending...and I have found that if you bring the correct amount of mats to IF or ORG and simply look for someone who has the pattern, you can almost always find someone who will craft the item for you...either free if they are just wanting gains, or via tipping....either way, it is still cheaper than buying the patterns and such. Crafters are cool accessories in this game...but in honesty, the first character someone has is better off just gathering and making money to fund a comfy existence.
+++crap i thought i was done!!!!!!!! one last note: If you do use this method....you can also make note of which crafting items you make for gains are used in quests. Mail them to whichever alts are currently questing in that zone, and you can frequently pick up quick and easy money by selling on the spot what folks need to turn in that quest.
To TyrionFarseer
Scholar:
You don't have to go out of your way to farm mats really...done wisely, you can maximize both profit and xp per hour doing this. If you use radar to locate a resource spawn you want, and lure a couple of mobs to it...you can chain kill a couple-few depending on class, and be left with bodies piled at your resource. get your resource....and let hp rebuild while gathering/skinning. IF you even still need to eat or drink by the time you are done, the time taken to do it will be minimal. Of all the ones I have done this with thus far...druids really shine here. Gather you a pile of mobs in bear form....and go to town killing away. Once all cleared....pop a quick heal....and virtually guaranteed by the time you are done gathering, your mana is restored and you are ready to roll again.
Edited, Tue Aug 9 11:53:30 2005 by SLEEPYH
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