Let me make you a counterproposal - why don't you offer the winner of a roll the vendor value for the item on the spot? Basically you'd do the same thing you do with the shard - your party allows you to roll need on any item nobody else wants, and you pay the winner of a roll whatever vendor value for the item is. After all, he won the item, and all he can do is vendor it anyway - now he isn't out any money, and although you don't get the mats for free, they're cheaper than the AH price. Once you've bought the item, you can disenchant it and nobody would argue that you deserve the shard.
As for the ores and the leathers, almost all of them can be and are obtained outside the instances as well. The few exceptions really need to be discussed in the party before the run begins - things like the Pristine Hide of the Beast, the Souldarite from Hakkari veins, and so forth. But in most cases, these are done by guilds, and either the guild is getting the materials or the guild miner/skinner is expected to share his mats with the rest of the guild. Same with enchanting on guild runs - in those, the enchanter usually keeps the mats but is expected to provide important enchants for guild members.
I was in a Scholo run with a gentleman who wanted Dark Runes for crafting and had a very creative solution - he didn't mind rolling greed against anyone for the rune, but anyone who passed on the rune would roll for 1G. Those of us who had no real use for the rune except to sell on the AH were more than happy to have a 1 in 5 chance at 1G on the spot and let someone else have his crafting mats.
And as for people not collecting the shards for their own enchants, you're dead wrong on that one. Almost none of the enchanters I know provide mats for their enchants, especially the ones that use shards, unless they are just desperate to level their skill. If I want an enchant, I buy the shards at the AH for whatever the enchanters think they're worth, then tip the enchanter handsomely for waving his wand over my item. An enchanter on the run who will disenchant a soulbound item that I win for me is a generous soul - one who feels he should be allowed to roll need on every item that drops because he really needs the mats to level his enchanting is a ninja.
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The short end of the..."encahnting rod"Follow
Quote:
I understand you all, I'm not saying I should get every item that no one needs, thats above and beyond greedy. If I sounded that way, I apologize, I just dont like DEing an item then giving the shard away for people to sell, if I'm gonna DE something I'm gonna keep it. If non-enchanters want shards to sell, then they should've picked up enchanting themselves. This isn't an issue of profit to me as much as its an issue of principle. I don't care if I don't get the mat, I care if the mat comes into play and a non-enchanter gets it.
What this comes down to then is just how nice you choose to be to your fellow players. Joe Bob has won the roll on the BoP that nobody can use. If I’m there with an enchanter I will instantly ask if he would rather loot the item or have me loot it and give him whatever it disenchants into. I do this for the same reason I would open the door for someone with their arms full or let someone with a single item in front of me at the grocery store. Its called being nice to people. None of the above examples takes any great effort on my part, but the person on the receiving end is usually grateful for the help.
If you choose not to be nice to others then that’s your choice. I certainly don’t feel that players should be forced to use their professions to help others out. It comes naturally to many of us, but obviously not all.
Calabar, Dude you rock, i have been looking at this post for days now. The whole time wondering what the hell to say, the spirit of the post seemed so selfish and greedy. It felt like the OP was saying that two wrongs make a right(if others do'nt share he should not), But as usual you have proven that you are a scholor(or guru in your case)and a gentalman... I swear that someday i will be given a chance to party with you, and i look foward to it. with relm transfers who knows, it may be sooner than anybody thought.
Rate up for Calabar(even thought it dose little good :))
Rate up for Calabar(even thought it dose little good :))
4 posts
I have my own set of rules when I am the group/raid leader, and I let everyone know what they are first hand. These rules I put into place so everyone is happy.
1)BOE items are rolled for, if you REALLY need it roll need.
2)BOP items everyone passes, then roll. If nobody can use the item, the item goes to the enchanter for de. If there is more than one enchanter, the enchanters in the group roll for it.(Honestly if you can't use a bop item why take it? give it to the enchanter.)
3)If any mats happen to drop ONLY the people who have that profession roll for it.(goes for all professions) Mats for all other professions are easier to get, mats for enchanting are harder to aquire. Hench why they sell for so much at the AH.
4) The only exception to the rule is if a person lets everyone know what specifically they are looking for in advance.
In a good group everyone will be walking out with really good loot.There is no reason to need somthing you really don't need.
1)BOE items are rolled for, if you REALLY need it roll need.
2)BOP items everyone passes, then roll. If nobody can use the item, the item goes to the enchanter for de. If there is more than one enchanter, the enchanters in the group roll for it.(Honestly if you can't use a bop item why take it? give it to the enchanter.)
3)If any mats happen to drop ONLY the people who have that profession roll for it.(goes for all professions) Mats for all other professions are easier to get, mats for enchanting are harder to aquire. Hench why they sell for so much at the AH.
4) The only exception to the rule is if a person lets everyone know what specifically they are looking for in advance.
In a good group everyone will be walking out with really good loot.There is no reason to need somthing you really don't need.
Just don't tell people you're an enchanter if you're in a PuG then roll greed like everyone else. Wait until after the instance to disenchant items you've won.
Interesting debate- I can certainly see both sides of the argument here.
Having said that, I don't think that BoP items that are not needed should automatically go to the enchanter(s) of the group to disenchant and keep the resulting mats. First of all, as has been said, everyone can sell a BoP item and get something for it. They won't get as much for the item as the shard, but in the end, we're arguing the value of Need versus Greed. If an Enchanting recipe drops, enchanters would get it- nobody else can claim to need it. If a Blacksmithing plans drop, smiths would get that. However, everyone wants materials so that they can either make enchants or get enchants. Enchanters want the mats to either use in their sales (greed) or to sell on auction house (greed). The non-enchanters want the mats to get a free component for an enchant for themselves (greed) or to sell on AH (greed). There's no "need" for free mats. If you need mats, you can buy them or solo SM and d/e everything quite happily.
Unfortunately, while this should apply to mining and skinning, it rarely does. Why? Because, as has been said, if a miner doesn't speak up, the ore vein is useless. If the skinner doesn't speak up, the skinnable mob is just a corpse. However, if a BoP item drops, even if it's only worth a gold to a vendor, it's worth a gold to everyone in the group. Thus, even if enchanters don't announce they can d/e it, there's a value on that BoP. If the enchanter then claims Need on every "useless" BoP, he's profiting at the expense of every other player, which is equally unfair.
I think that there have been two excellent points made so far- one, that it's a simple courtesy for enchanters to offer to d/e BoPs that someone has won, not an obligation. The roll should probably be done before the d/e, to eliminate the whole "enchanter has to d/e and give up the shard" mentality. If you don't feel like being nice, refuse to d/e it. If my Hunter (not an enchanter) won a roll and the enchanter refused to d/e, it wouldn't be any skin off my back- I'd still keep the item. I may be an asshat for not letting them d/e and keep it, but at the same time, they're paying me the same courtesy by not offering to d/e it. The other point was made by fledarmus- that the person who won the roll could sell the BoP (before it's given to them) to an enchanter for the price that they'd get from the vendor, and the enchanter would then get the item, and whatever profits the mats would bring. It would work equitably for both parties.
Having said that, I don't think that BoP items that are not needed should automatically go to the enchanter(s) of the group to disenchant and keep the resulting mats. First of all, as has been said, everyone can sell a BoP item and get something for it. They won't get as much for the item as the shard, but in the end, we're arguing the value of Need versus Greed. If an Enchanting recipe drops, enchanters would get it- nobody else can claim to need it. If a Blacksmithing plans drop, smiths would get that. However, everyone wants materials so that they can either make enchants or get enchants. Enchanters want the mats to either use in their sales (greed) or to sell on auction house (greed). The non-enchanters want the mats to get a free component for an enchant for themselves (greed) or to sell on AH (greed). There's no "need" for free mats. If you need mats, you can buy them or solo SM and d/e everything quite happily.
Unfortunately, while this should apply to mining and skinning, it rarely does. Why? Because, as has been said, if a miner doesn't speak up, the ore vein is useless. If the skinner doesn't speak up, the skinnable mob is just a corpse. However, if a BoP item drops, even if it's only worth a gold to a vendor, it's worth a gold to everyone in the group. Thus, even if enchanters don't announce they can d/e it, there's a value on that BoP. If the enchanter then claims Need on every "useless" BoP, he's profiting at the expense of every other player, which is equally unfair.
I think that there have been two excellent points made so far- one, that it's a simple courtesy for enchanters to offer to d/e BoPs that someone has won, not an obligation. The roll should probably be done before the d/e, to eliminate the whole "enchanter has to d/e and give up the shard" mentality. If you don't feel like being nice, refuse to d/e it. If my Hunter (not an enchanter) won a roll and the enchanter refused to d/e, it wouldn't be any skin off my back- I'd still keep the item. I may be an asshat for not letting them d/e and keep it, but at the same time, they're paying me the same courtesy by not offering to d/e it. The other point was made by fledarmus- that the person who won the roll could sell the BoP (before it's given to them) to an enchanter for the price that they'd get from the vendor, and the enchanter would then get the item, and whatever profits the mats would bring. It would work equitably for both parties.
I'd like to thank you all for your responses, this is certainly a VERY interesting debate. I've noticed lately that alot of you are saying things that I definitely agree to. First of all, i am NOT saying that I should win every BoP item that no one needs, thats straight up greed and unfair to the rest of the group because as so many of you say, the item has a value even if not DE'd. The problem I have with it is when PuGs try to FORCE me to DE it. I've been in two or three groups where I straight up told them I didnt like this idea and refused to DE the item. They got mad (i was the only enchanter) and threatened to kick me from the group if I didnt do it. I'm not saying I should get every mat. one additional thing I've noticed in the game lately is that people are want you to DE this stuff so much so they can AH it (if you want a specific shard for a specific enchant, let the group know ahead of time and there will be no contest. Id be happy to DE an item for you, even a BoP, if you want a specific shard and let me know ahead of time) but after going over some data from the enhtooltip mod and auctioneer. I've found that in most cases, the value of the shard on the AH on my server is only 1-3 gold better than the vendor item of the BoP. For some, big deal; for most, not. In the end, the reason I want the shards is because my enchanting is only 160 and I want to get it higher, the reason most people (most, not all) want the shard is to sell it on the auction house.
Here's a situation:
A BoP drops in the group I'm in. I DE it, we roll, and Joe wins the shard. I'm not having good luck finding shards and I need one shard for an enchant to get my skill up. I go to the auction house, and whaddya know, there Joe's shard for 5g. Now I'm paying 5g for one point of skill, which he could've let me have no problem.
Again, this is not a plea for every BoP dropped to come to me, I'm just saying, don't force me to DE the item for you. It's a courtesy of enchanters not a right. I'm sorry but I do not DE BoPs for other people to take. If I'm going to DE something, the resulting mat is staying in my inventory. I'm sorry if you think that's selfish, but I don't really think it is.
(Sorry for all the long messages, guess I have a lot to say)
Here's a situation:
A BoP drops in the group I'm in. I DE it, we roll, and Joe wins the shard. I'm not having good luck finding shards and I need one shard for an enchant to get my skill up. I go to the auction house, and whaddya know, there Joe's shard for 5g. Now I'm paying 5g for one point of skill, which he could've let me have no problem.
Again, this is not a plea for every BoP dropped to come to me, I'm just saying, don't force me to DE the item for you. It's a courtesy of enchanters not a right. I'm sorry but I do not DE BoPs for other people to take. If I'm going to DE something, the resulting mat is staying in my inventory. I'm sorry if you think that's selfish, but I don't really think it is.
(Sorry for all the long messages, guess I have a lot to say)
I'm of a mixed opinion on this. I'll try to explain my views, but it'll definitely become long winded. Okay...
I want the DE mat.
Enchants are expensive, enchant mats are expensive. The best way for me to get an enchant (and often the only way) is for me to save up the mats from instance runs. I have a bag in my bank dedicated to DE mats I have recieved because an enchanter DE'd something, we rolled, and I won. I have used those mats for enchants for my equipment, not for money. I have given those mats to guildies when they needed enchant mats. The mats are expensive in the AH! Trying to buy the mats for a higher level enchant can easily get above 100g, and that's before tips, etc. And what's up with tips? I understand you would want money for doing your job, but I had to buy/win all the mats for a +22 Int to weapon... and then I was told to pay the enchanter 20g or more just to click "Enchant Weapon." That may be a bad example, since I have since learned that the +22 Int requires Thorium Brotherhood rep, and that requires time and money to get, but still! The mats for that are easily over 100g. If I bought those mats from you, for example, you just made 100g+ profit. Now, you want 20g more for clicking? What's wrong, in this enviroment, with providing me an enchant mat for an item I'd win anyway?
Leveling enchanting is crazy.
Okay, you need to destroy items to level your profession. Every item you get isn't sold, it's destroyed... ouch. And destroying items doesn't increase skill for long, as I understand it. Instead of a gathering skill supplying your mats, the money you'd get from those items is essentially providing you mats. That must get old fast. For enchanters, then, they have three sources of money: Non-DE items, DE mats, and enchants. They do have a right to charge a lot, and I can understand why you'd want every chance to get mats to level up your DEing.
Personal experience:
I'm a leatehrworker/skinner. I skin everything I can, and get leather and dragonscales. I use those to make gear for guildies, and hoepfully to make money with items and/or those leather/scales. Without skinning, those corpses would have no value. Without skinning, warlocks can't get their epic mount, hunters can't get their Black Dragonscale set, etc. No one has complained about my skinning, and I have asked no one (in my guild) for money for scales they need or for armor kits. But, if someone needs armor made, they have to supply mats, just like if someone needs an enchant. I'll supply leather, hides, even scales, because I'm the only one that can get that, but if you need a Guardian Stone? You can get that. Go get it.
Summary:
Enchanters are the only ones that can make their mats, but they have to sacrifice their money to make them. It's a harsh job that leads to high prices as enchanters try to make money somehow, and a shortage of mats for leveling enchants. I don't see a solution, and I'll just keep muddling through with enchants from guildies and enchant mats from rolls in instances.
I want the DE mat.
Enchants are expensive, enchant mats are expensive. The best way for me to get an enchant (and often the only way) is for me to save up the mats from instance runs. I have a bag in my bank dedicated to DE mats I have recieved because an enchanter DE'd something, we rolled, and I won. I have used those mats for enchants for my equipment, not for money. I have given those mats to guildies when they needed enchant mats. The mats are expensive in the AH! Trying to buy the mats for a higher level enchant can easily get above 100g, and that's before tips, etc. And what's up with tips? I understand you would want money for doing your job, but I had to buy/win all the mats for a +22 Int to weapon... and then I was told to pay the enchanter 20g or more just to click "Enchant Weapon." That may be a bad example, since I have since learned that the +22 Int requires Thorium Brotherhood rep, and that requires time and money to get, but still! The mats for that are easily over 100g. If I bought those mats from you, for example, you just made 100g+ profit. Now, you want 20g more for clicking? What's wrong, in this enviroment, with providing me an enchant mat for an item I'd win anyway?
Leveling enchanting is crazy.
Okay, you need to destroy items to level your profession. Every item you get isn't sold, it's destroyed... ouch. And destroying items doesn't increase skill for long, as I understand it. Instead of a gathering skill supplying your mats, the money you'd get from those items is essentially providing you mats. That must get old fast. For enchanters, then, they have three sources of money: Non-DE items, DE mats, and enchants. They do have a right to charge a lot, and I can understand why you'd want every chance to get mats to level up your DEing.
Personal experience:
I'm a leatehrworker/skinner. I skin everything I can, and get leather and dragonscales. I use those to make gear for guildies, and hoepfully to make money with items and/or those leather/scales. Without skinning, those corpses would have no value. Without skinning, warlocks can't get their epic mount, hunters can't get their Black Dragonscale set, etc. No one has complained about my skinning, and I have asked no one (in my guild) for money for scales they need or for armor kits. But, if someone needs armor made, they have to supply mats, just like if someone needs an enchant. I'll supply leather, hides, even scales, because I'm the only one that can get that, but if you need a Guardian Stone? You can get that. Go get it.
Summary:
Enchanters are the only ones that can make their mats, but they have to sacrifice their money to make them. It's a harsh job that leads to high prices as enchanters try to make money somehow, and a shortage of mats for leveling enchants. I don't see a solution, and I'll just keep muddling through with enchants from guildies and enchant mats from rolls in instances.
Dfdestiny wrote:
Again, this is not a plea for every BoP dropped to come to me, I'm just saying, don't force me to DE the item for you. It's a courtesy of enchanters not a right. I'm sorry but I do not DE BoPs for other people to take. If I'm going to DE something, the resulting mat is staying in my inventory. I'm sorry if you think that's selfish, but I don't really think it is.
Exactly, and thank you - this explains a lot of where your first post came from and I'm glad to hear it! And this sentiment I can certainly agree with. You spend time and money on your profession, and you are not required to give the proceeds away for free. I appreciate the courtesy of an enchanter in my group telling the group that he is an enchanter and would be willing to disenchant any item that wasn't needed by someone in the group, as long as the resulting mat is distributed in the same way that the unneeded item would be. I respect the right of an enchanter to decide that he is not willing to offer this service without some form of payment.
Edited, Aug 21st 2006 at 1:53pm EDT by fledarmus
ya, i'm sorry if my original posts were hostile. That was not so much my intent. I don't mean to sound selfish or rude. And in response whillenn, i totally get it. Like if someone was to say in a group, "hey, i'm trying to get Fiery and I need this mat, then I'd be just fine with it, its no problem. But in my experience is that people just want the mats to put on the AH, which in turn makes it harder for us to get mats because if we have trouble farming a specific one than I have to pay more money for my own mats. But again, if someone needs a mat, i'd be happy to DE something to help them, but not if everyone's just goin for AH money. And again, with certain things, mat value on AH is only a little more than vendor value, especially because a specific mat keeps its value static (more or less) while the items its DE'd from can increase in value, sometimes dramatically.
Okay, suppose that you are an enchanter and you are in a PUG. You decide not to tell anyone that you have enchanting, and roll fairly on all BOP items (meaning that you roll greed on them).
Suppose that you win a BOP item and notice that your bags are starting to get full. In order to make some room, you decide to DE all the items that you don't intend to use or sell since enchanting mats stack.
Someone notices that you just recieved a shard from that BOP item and the party leader all of a sudden tells everyone to roll for the shard. You are forced to reroll on an item that you have already won, in this cituation I would refuse to roll and keep the shard.
After reading this post, it seems that the OP was referring to instances where he/she had fairly won the item and was forced to reroll on the item after DE'ing it.
Suppose that you win a BOP item and notice that your bags are starting to get full. In order to make some room, you decide to DE all the items that you don't intend to use or sell since enchanting mats stack.
Someone notices that you just recieved a shard from that BOP item and the party leader all of a sudden tells everyone to roll for the shard. You are forced to reroll on an item that you have already won, in this cituation I would refuse to roll and keep the shard.
After reading this post, it seems that the OP was referring to instances where he/she had fairly won the item and was forced to reroll on the item after DE'ing it.
Whillenn wrote:
...And what's up with tips? I understand you would want money for doing your job, but I had to buy/win all the mats for a +22 Int to weapon... and then I was told to pay the enchanter 20g or more just to click "Enchant Weapon." That may be a bad example, since I have since learned that the +22 Int requires Thorium Brotherhood rep, and that requires time and money to get, but still! The mats for that are easily over 100g. If I bought those mats from you, for example, you just made 100g+ profit. Now, you want 20g more for clicking? What's wrong, in this enviroment, with providing me an enchant mat for an item I'd win anyway?
Think about it this way- why do you skin? According to you (and I have no reason not to believe you), you give away a lot of your skinning proceeds to guildies, as long as they provide any other non-skinning related mats necessary. However, if and when you sell your items on the Auction House, how much do you charge? Do you charge the worth that the mats would go for to an NPC vendor, or the amount that they're worth on the AH? I'd wager that you sell your goods at the same price that other people sell it at in the AH. Why? Because you need to make a profit if you're going to make money. Same for enchanters- they need to make money off of their sales. If you're in the same guild as an enchanter, odds are you'll get the enchant for the cost of mats. However, if you are buying the enchant from someone with no connection to you (apart from the sale), they are doing it for money. The tip is the surcharge, if you will. It's no different than a leatherworker making Black Dragonscale armour and putting it in the AH for much more than its material worth. Why? Fire resist sells. Production professions make a great profit off of FR gear, simply because of the demand.
The other thing to remember is that they may not be making 100G profit by selling you a 100G enchant with no tip. If you ask for an enchant, and say you have mats, then they mnake nothing- you've cut the cost of mats out entirely. Also, a lot of enchanters stay in the cities to sell enchants in bulk. This means that they may get requests for enchants that they do not have the mats for (especially if they're on their twentieth enchant). Thus, in your example, they pay out 100G to buy the necessary mats from the AH, and then sell the enchant to you for 100G. Without a tip, they make nothing. I don't know anyone who will do a profession that has no reward (barring doing them for guildies). I cook because I can sell Deviate Delights and make food that boosts my stats. I do first aid because I want to be able to heal myself (or someone else when I'm in a group). I gather herbs and do alchemy to make money (or pots to my guild at cost). Why is an enchanter expected to work for total strangers for free?
Quote:
For enchanters, then, they have three sources of money: Non-DE items, DE mats, and enchants. They do have a right to charge a lot, and I can understand why you'd want every chance to get mats to level up your DEing.
See? You explained your own question!
Seriously though, think of it this way- you aren't paying enchanters for the one second they press the "enchant" button, any more than you're paying the production professions for pressing the "create all" button. You're paying them for taking the time and effort to level their craft.
Edited, Aug 22nd 2006 at 9:26am EDT by Wondroustremor
Yeah, I was trying to explain my views on the whole enchanting situation, and I tend to be on both sides of an issue. You should see me when i'm asked to pick a favorite anything. :)
Before my sis started working as an enchanter I had no idea that it was so crazy to level enchanting. It looked like an easy street to millions, basically. It wasn't until I found out that destroying stuff doesn't give you skill points for long at all that I realized how much of a pain it was for them. So, now I try to be nicer to enchanters... while I get my enchants from guildies. Hey, I don't have 100g, what do you expect...
Before my sis started working as an enchanter I had no idea that it was so crazy to level enchanting. It looked like an easy street to millions, basically. It wasn't until I found out that destroying stuff doesn't give you skill points for long at all that I realized how much of a pain it was for them. So, now I try to be nicer to enchanters... while I get my enchants from guildies. Hey, I don't have 100g, what do you expect...
#40REDACTED,
Posted: Aug 23 2006 at 4:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you go to AQ ZG MC yes there are vains and yes miners get them same as herbelist get there blood vine and scinners scin core hounds. Stop whining or get an other profesion.
Quote:
Enchanters never put mats in the bank they just use it for them selves selling enchants ect , always asking for rods getting 3 arcanite bars form the guild bank for that arcanite rod 90/100 G on my server
Candykane, you're logic here, I'm sorry to say is totally off. You're making a broad generalization with a narrow bit of evidence. I don't particularly go for the idea of a guild bank, it's placing too much truest on people you don't even know for real. I myself have never taken a single thing from our guild bank just as I have never put anything in. I may have never contributed, but I have never taken either. I think you need to realize the full gravity of what it takes to level enchanting (not to mention find the high-level recipes everyone wants). DEing only goes so far (about level 40-50, if even that high, i cant remember) after that you actually have to enchant. Personally, I do instance runs constantly and DE any stuff I find after the run is over. And I'm constantly finding that my level goes up in bursts, usually only 5-10 levels every week or two. And again I never take from the guild bank, and even if I were to take from it, I would pay it pack, one way or another. Every rod or whatever that I need for the next range of enchants I buy on the AH. I suppose technically I could buy more enchanting mats on the AH (I've already explained that) but I have an epic mount to buy in 4 levels and money's tight enough as it is. So please Candykane, don't characterize all enchanters based on your encounters with a few.
1 post
Well I sort of agree with the OP. I don't necessarily believe that as an enchanter I should have rights to any disenchanted materials. However I can see a justification for the idea that if my disenchanting an item adds 4 gold value to it, you should pay me some reasonable percentage of that 4 gold increase. I don't usually make an issue of this, particularly when I run with my guild, but if I'm going to add value to something, I should get some value myself.
22 posts
If your with a PUG i think everyone should have the right to roll, but with your guildies, you should definately do what benefits the guild. Otherwise:
Me: "Ooo, one more large bril shard and I can give one of our warriors that crusader enchant he really needs"
Billy: "No, im taking it so i can sell it and get the gold to buy the mats to make some minor mana potions!"
Me: "/gRemove Billy"
Me: "Ooo, one more large bril shard and I can give one of our warriors that crusader enchant he really needs"
Billy: "No, im taking it so i can sell it and get the gold to buy the mats to make some minor mana potions!"
Me: "/gRemove Billy"
/praise eskarel
for whatever reason I never thought of that. That's a great idea.
for whatever reason I never thought of that. That's a great idea.
I'M SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE TOPIC!
After reading your thread starting thingy, I'd like to say I've never thought about it that way. I'm not sure whether to say "I totally agree with you" (Because I do) or "That's not how the looting rules were established, we need money aswell." (Which really is greedy but that's how it works) I think you are totally right! But in a sense I just can't bring myself to completely agree with you. There's just something in the back of my head that's saying, "No you're wrong and I'm right."
Forgive me because I really do agree with you, but I think the reason why I CAN'T agree is that I don't know why these so called 'looting rules' were established. There might be a perfectly good reason as to why Enchanters don't get to have their mats which they need to continue with their proffesions and others do. Then again there might not be. Therefore I cannot agree nor disagree with you until I know the true reason of rolling for shards and such. Are there possibly other proffesions that actually need these mats for their proffesion? Or maybe it is because some enchanters are only enchanters to sell the shards themselves. That would make some sense. Let me make a new paragraph now to explain a little. :]
Some enchanters start their proffesion to enchant things (eg. weapons, armour), others simply to sell the shards on the AH FOR these enchanters that actually enchant. In which case, if they are sellers of shards and not enchanting enchanters, it would be fair to roll for the shards as the non-enchanters are going to sell them for all the same reasons. So technically there is no difference between a shard selling enchanter, and a non-enchanter if you think about it. This could be why you're getting the short end of the 'Enchanting Rod', because you're an enchanting enchanter I believe, not a shard selling enchanter.
Can you make sense of what I have just explained to you? Might I add I'm only answering to the main topic of the thread, this may have already been explained in previous posts. But that is how I saw it when I finished reading your opinion. But back to the point. Fact is that being a shard selling enchanter means you supply mats for enchanters at a cost, making being an enchanting enchanter more costly, yet sometimes the reward for being an enchanting enchanter can double what you payed for these mats. So leading to that being an enchanting enchanter can be more of a gamble, sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. But being a shard selling enchanter is more of a more definate way of making money, but not making as much.
But maybe if what I said is true that Shard selling enchanters are no different to non-enchanters, then the shard selling enchanters are wasting their time, they could be using the money from the shards for another proffesion because they will still be rolling for shards like they were before. Only difference is that their might not be an enchanter in their group so sometimes there won't be shards. It's all your choice. Some feel differently about how the proffesions should be used. For money or for leisure, or, for money or for more money in some cases. Life's a gamble, so is enchanting.
This is only my opinion. Feel free to say anything against this, I'd love to hear what you have to say. Your own opinion. :] I'd like to thanks Dfdestiny for bringing this to my attention because it has been an interesting topic to type and think about.
Glad to get that off my chest.
Edited, Aug 31st 2006 at 8:54am EDT by LRCollier
After reading your thread starting thingy, I'd like to say I've never thought about it that way. I'm not sure whether to say "I totally agree with you" (Because I do) or "That's not how the looting rules were established, we need money aswell." (Which really is greedy but that's how it works) I think you are totally right! But in a sense I just can't bring myself to completely agree with you. There's just something in the back of my head that's saying, "No you're wrong and I'm right."
Forgive me because I really do agree with you, but I think the reason why I CAN'T agree is that I don't know why these so called 'looting rules' were established. There might be a perfectly good reason as to why Enchanters don't get to have their mats which they need to continue with their proffesions and others do. Then again there might not be. Therefore I cannot agree nor disagree with you until I know the true reason of rolling for shards and such. Are there possibly other proffesions that actually need these mats for their proffesion? Or maybe it is because some enchanters are only enchanters to sell the shards themselves. That would make some sense. Let me make a new paragraph now to explain a little. :]
Some enchanters start their proffesion to enchant things (eg. weapons, armour), others simply to sell the shards on the AH FOR these enchanters that actually enchant. In which case, if they are sellers of shards and not enchanting enchanters, it would be fair to roll for the shards as the non-enchanters are going to sell them for all the same reasons. So technically there is no difference between a shard selling enchanter, and a non-enchanter if you think about it. This could be why you're getting the short end of the 'Enchanting Rod', because you're an enchanting enchanter I believe, not a shard selling enchanter.
Can you make sense of what I have just explained to you? Might I add I'm only answering to the main topic of the thread, this may have already been explained in previous posts. But that is how I saw it when I finished reading your opinion. But back to the point. Fact is that being a shard selling enchanter means you supply mats for enchanters at a cost, making being an enchanting enchanter more costly, yet sometimes the reward for being an enchanting enchanter can double what you payed for these mats. So leading to that being an enchanting enchanter can be more of a gamble, sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. But being a shard selling enchanter is more of a more definate way of making money, but not making as much.
But maybe if what I said is true that Shard selling enchanters are no different to non-enchanters, then the shard selling enchanters are wasting their time, they could be using the money from the shards for another proffesion because they will still be rolling for shards like they were before. Only difference is that their might not be an enchanter in their group so sometimes there won't be shards. It's all your choice. Some feel differently about how the proffesions should be used. For money or for leisure, or, for money or for more money in some cases. Life's a gamble, so is enchanting.
This is only my opinion. Feel free to say anything against this, I'd love to hear what you have to say. Your own opinion. :] I'd like to thanks Dfdestiny for bringing this to my attention because it has been an interesting topic to type and think about.
Glad to get that off my chest.
Edited, Aug 31st 2006 at 8:54am EDT by LRCollier
As people have stated before..
-- It is your choice to let people know in a PUG if you can DE items and are willing to do it for the benefit of everyone. If you decide to, then it makes sense that you get all BoP items and DE them, and everyone gets to roll on the mats. The other fair option is to just let everyone roll on the BoP, and let them sell to vendor if they cannot DE it on their own. To obtain all BoP items, DE them, and keep the mats yourself would be greedy. What would you think if a Tailor in a PUG said: "Hey guys, I'm taking all the Runecloth, and you better give me your's, too, because I can use it in my profession and you guys are just selling it for profit." (Not saying that you're talking about taking everything for yourself, just mentioning this anyway. ;)
-- You can choose to not DE items for others. It is YOUR profession, and if you wish not to help others make a little more profit on their items (vendor price vs. mats price), then that's your perogative. Just remember, helping others makes this game better for everyone involved.. You never know when someone will help you in return. (Karma ftw.)
-- If you roll on an item and win it (when everyone rolled), DE it, and then someone insists that you reroll on the mats from the item that you originally won the roll for, slap them silly and throw a hissy fit if you have to. That's just stupid and greed on the part of the person insisting on rerolling.
-- While the comparison to miners and skinners and herbalists is valid, it's also not quite the same thing. If nobody can mine a node, skin a corpse, or harvest a plant, nobody gets anything. There are no other options. However, if a BoP drops and there are no Enchanters (or none willing to DE for others), the players can still sell that item to vendor for gold. So my point is: A miner/skinner/herbalist is creating an item that others cannot obtain in any way. If they keep it, you are not "losing" an opportunity to obtain that item. If an Enchanter, however, hoards all BoPs to DE for him/herself, everyone else in the group is "losing" the opportunity to obtain that item and sell to vendor for gold.
-- I would imagine that the looting rules would vary for the group you are in. Rerolling on DE mats could be an option. Allowing the Enchanter to DE all the unusable BoPs and splitting the results evenly at the end of the run could be an option, as well. Perhaps if it's a successful run and people get what they really wanted, the Enchanter could keep the mats. It depends on the situation, setup, and views of those involved. Just discuss it beforehand so there aren't any problems when the first BoP drops and people want different outcomes.
-- It is your choice to let people know in a PUG if you can DE items and are willing to do it for the benefit of everyone. If you decide to, then it makes sense that you get all BoP items and DE them, and everyone gets to roll on the mats. The other fair option is to just let everyone roll on the BoP, and let them sell to vendor if they cannot DE it on their own. To obtain all BoP items, DE them, and keep the mats yourself would be greedy. What would you think if a Tailor in a PUG said: "Hey guys, I'm taking all the Runecloth, and you better give me your's, too, because I can use it in my profession and you guys are just selling it for profit." (Not saying that you're talking about taking everything for yourself, just mentioning this anyway. ;)
-- You can choose to not DE items for others. It is YOUR profession, and if you wish not to help others make a little more profit on their items (vendor price vs. mats price), then that's your perogative. Just remember, helping others makes this game better for everyone involved.. You never know when someone will help you in return. (Karma ftw.)
-- If you roll on an item and win it (when everyone rolled), DE it, and then someone insists that you reroll on the mats from the item that you originally won the roll for, slap them silly and throw a hissy fit if you have to. That's just stupid and greed on the part of the person insisting on rerolling.
-- While the comparison to miners and skinners and herbalists is valid, it's also not quite the same thing. If nobody can mine a node, skin a corpse, or harvest a plant, nobody gets anything. There are no other options. However, if a BoP drops and there are no Enchanters (or none willing to DE for others), the players can still sell that item to vendor for gold. So my point is: A miner/skinner/herbalist is creating an item that others cannot obtain in any way. If they keep it, you are not "losing" an opportunity to obtain that item. If an Enchanter, however, hoards all BoPs to DE for him/herself, everyone else in the group is "losing" the opportunity to obtain that item and sell to vendor for gold.
-- I would imagine that the looting rules would vary for the group you are in. Rerolling on DE mats could be an option. Allowing the Enchanter to DE all the unusable BoPs and splitting the results evenly at the end of the run could be an option, as well. Perhaps if it's a successful run and people get what they really wanted, the Enchanter could keep the mats. It depends on the situation, setup, and views of those involved. Just discuss it beforehand so there aren't any problems when the first BoP drops and people want different outcomes.
Quote:
-- You can choose to not DE items for others. It is YOUR profession, and if you wish not to help others make a little more profit on their items (vendor price vs. mats price), then that's your perogative.
but again, on some servers, mine included, when DEing the higher end stuff, mostly what comes out are large brilliant shards, and the AH value of those on our server is usually not much higher than the vendor value of the BoP.
Quote:
If you roll on an item and win it (when everyone rolled), DE it, and then someone insists that you reroll on the mats from the item that you originally won the roll for
had this happen once. he didnt even mentioning DEing and rolling for the shard BEFOREHAND. I won, and then all of a sudden he goes, "you can DE?! why didnt you tell us. everyone roll." i refused to give up the shard saying we didnt agree to do that and that I'm against it. We argued for a minute, then he kicked me.
All in all, its a courtesy thing i know, and it would be more courteous to DE it then let them roll, but I just don't like it. The way I see it, professions are a way to turn a profit. mining turns a profit, herb. turns a profit, skinning turns a profit...what do these have in common, they are all used to turn a profit for the person who has the profession. Enchanting on the other hand, often is used as a way to turn a profit for a non-enchanter, and I just don't like that. Like many of you said, the BoP has a value alone, unlike a node, so at least you can make a profit even when we're not there, it seems unfair to me for me to use MY profession to increase YOUR profit.
which in turn, can cause us to be forced to buy our own mats back at a jacked up rate...but i guess that happens with all gathering professions.
I remember in one group i was in, i got an item that i didnt need/ wasnt worth much. I DE'ed it and got a shard.
Did the group care?
Hell no, i got the shard and no one said a thing about rolling for it.
Did the group care?
Hell no, i got the shard and no one said a thing about rolling for it.
This is why I love having a guild of close friends.
Basically, we do things this way. Let's say that someone in the guild wants Fiery. The mats for Fiery are fairly simple. 4 X Small Radiant Shard. 1 X Essence of Fire. Now what I usually do is this. I ask them if they want to farm or run instances. If they want to farm, they can either farm greens (which defeats the purpose), or farm me LW mats for Lv.40 - 49 items (In this case, chests, since shards drop more often from them). This way, they're doing a relatively easier job and getting the same yield for it. If they want to raid, I'll raid with them in an area with mobs that drop said Lv. 40 - 49 items, and they'll just hand me anything they find that no one in the group wants. I'll d/e everything, and if all the mats pop out, I'll do their enchant and give them the rest of the mats I got from D/eing the rest of the stuff. Of course, they'll be farming the Essence of Fire themselves, since Un'Goro crater seems to have a steady supply of these as-of-late.
This works nicely since they do less work for enchants (It's easier to farm for, say, Scorpid Scales, than it is to randomly expect the right greens to drop), get extra mats out in the end, and since they -have- these mats, more often than not I get tipped with mats!
I understand this is a bit complex operation which wouldn't work for a PUG, but I guess this just proves once more that WoW is a social beast. Get some friends, join a guild, and save yourself the ulcer :x
Basically, we do things this way. Let's say that someone in the guild wants Fiery. The mats for Fiery are fairly simple. 4 X Small Radiant Shard. 1 X Essence of Fire. Now what I usually do is this. I ask them if they want to farm or run instances. If they want to farm, they can either farm greens (which defeats the purpose), or farm me LW mats for Lv.40 - 49 items (In this case, chests, since shards drop more often from them). This way, they're doing a relatively easier job and getting the same yield for it. If they want to raid, I'll raid with them in an area with mobs that drop said Lv. 40 - 49 items, and they'll just hand me anything they find that no one in the group wants. I'll d/e everything, and if all the mats pop out, I'll do their enchant and give them the rest of the mats I got from D/eing the rest of the stuff. Of course, they'll be farming the Essence of Fire themselves, since Un'Goro crater seems to have a steady supply of these as-of-late.
This works nicely since they do less work for enchants (It's easier to farm for, say, Scorpid Scales, than it is to randomly expect the right greens to drop), get extra mats out in the end, and since they -have- these mats, more often than not I get tipped with mats!
I understand this is a bit complex operation which wouldn't work for a PUG, but I guess this just proves once more that WoW is a social beast. Get some friends, join a guild, and save yourself the ulcer :x
#50REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 28 2008 at 7:36 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ok so what ure saying is:im an enchanter and a tailorer ok and u are a LW and Skinner makes since so far right. ok ure saying that we run an instance an epic recipe for LW pops up u **** ure pants bcuz ure the only LW woot 4 u right well according to ure post the whole 5 man team should be rolling i mean its not like they didnt help right u didnt solo they should at least roll on it wrong i AM an enchanter and tailorer but if a LW recipe pops i dont need it now do i so if a BoP pops that no 1 needs let DE have so he can make some profit it not like u could have made more money by vendoring it thats for sure as hell not happening so as far as im concerned the most id be willing to do is give u 50s for the damn vendor price
Downrated the necroposter, but not just for necroing. Language = attrocious, due to use of leet and misspelling, inability to use capitalization or contractions, and incoherent sentences. Hell, they aren't even sentences, but stream-of-consciousness crap.
In short, he needs to take some English as a first language lessons.
Edited, Feb 29th 2008 2:14am by ohmikeghod
In short, he needs to take some English as a first language lessons.
Edited, Feb 29th 2008 2:14am by ohmikeghod
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