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#27 Nov 17 2009 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
And of course there's no other tradeskill that depends on boss drops for high end recipes, is there Count? :rollseyes:
#28 Nov 17 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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Go out and farm enough titanium or arctic fur or blue gems or specialty cloth and then we'll talk.


Just to add some support. In the past week of playing, most of which was spent in areas Titanium spawns regularly, I have seen ONE node. That's it. One. So, if I want to make my secondary skill's best selling, 20-hour CD item, I'd have to buy the mats I didn't have from mining Saronite (and/or farm crystallized fire, which also drop from Titanium nodes).

On my server, 6 Titanium Ore (RIGHT NOW) would cost me just under 90G.
One Eternal Fire would cost me 22G (10 crystallized fire cost 25-30G).
If I didn't have any Eternal Earth and Shadow, that would be another 7 and 5G, respectively.

So, all in all, to buy all the mats (since I couldn't farm them in that 20 hour period), it would cost me 112-124G. A Titansteel Bar sells for 140-145G right now. I'd have spend that much money for a measly 29% profit (best case scenario, 112 cost and 145 sale).

On the other hand, I just did a quick search for a green. Arctic Boots cost 5G, with a yield of 1-3 Infinite Dust (75%), 1-2 Lesser Cosmic Essences (25%) and/or a Small Dream Shard (5%).

Infinite Dust sell for 2.25G each.
Lesser Cosmic Essence sells for 6.25G each.
Small Dream Shard 5G each.

It takes 2 Infinite Dust to break even, which is a very likely return. 3 infinite dust is a 45% return. Any other result is even higher profit, barring 1 Lesser Cosmic Essence which is only 25%.

Now, that may not look awesome, but remember. This is just a random, non-under-priced item. There were four more by different sellers at the same price. And it only took 5G. Your chance of losing money is low, breaking even okay and gaining 25%+ high. For an item that ISN'T OVERPRICED. If you use auctioneer and enchantrix to find low-priced items, you can make a huge amount of money with enchanting. Not long ago, I made a BE on a new server. By the time he was level 8, he had 57G to his name due to DEing low level loot he bought cheap off the AH. And I didn't spend much time. Went in, bought stuff that was underpriced, affordable and in my skill range, DEed it, posted full stacks and went on my way.

All this with a single profession. I can't do that with Prospecting. I'm lucky if I break even with my results (just mat prices), at AH prices. If I want to turn a profit, I have to turn those gems into dailies (and I can only do that once a day, turning two gems into 13G, after questing for another item to include in the recipe (and you sometimes have to go way out of your way to get it).

Saronite Ore, on my server, sells for a minimum of 15G a stack. I just DEd a stack and got a Huge Citrine(1.25G), 2 Bloodstone(2.5G), and a Dark Jade(2.25G). 15G (I bought a stack) just turned into 6G. Yay). Yes, you occasionally can get a rarer quality gem, but they each have only a 4% chance of dropping, and a stack only offers 4 prospects. And, on my server, all but the Scarlet Ruby are at 10G or below. So I'd still only make a whopping 6.66% profit if I got the best of the other rare gems.

Yeah, that's the same as DE.

And, you know, I regularly get ore to Prospect from heroics/raids... My won greed roll for an ilvl 200 blue pant is 10G and change. An enchanter's is 18-24G on my server, depending on the point in the week. Sorry, but that's an 80% increase and you didn't do anything. I mine up ore and my profession's side skill loses money. I don't get it nearly as bad as others, though, as JC can still make money as a profession.

A solid majestic zircon, on my server, sells for 180-200G (up to 220+ if there isn't competition). A majestic zircon is 140-165. So that's still constant profit, even if the return is low. Other professions don't make items that you will buy regularly. Or, if they do, they are expensive and there's only a few.
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#29 Nov 18 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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So you want to penalize enchanters because at this moment they are able to make gold off their profession? I'm failing to see why having DE as a profession and nerfing enchanters is a good idea. So less people can disenchant armor and the prices for mats go up for everyone perhaps?

People seems to think that expecting an enchanter to DE items and spread the loot is Okay while at same time a skinner/miner/ herbalist keeping their spoils from inside an instance or dungeon is fine. A lot of us don't see it that way. If people do not want to share the ore/herbs or whatever, don't just expect me to use my profession for your gain. Many times we will, but enchanters should have that choice if they want to or not.

Even if they did make Disenchanting its own separate profession, would we still have this discussion because you want the armor/weapons you get disenchanted? I'm willing to bet so. Letting enchanters stay how they are benefits everyone- Lower cost mats, and a more abundant amount of enchanters who know the enchants all end game players need.
#30 Nov 18 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vilaca wrote:
So you want to penalize enchanters because at this moment they are able to make gold off their profession? I'm failing to see why having DE as a profession and nerfing enchanters is a good idea. So less people can disenchant armor and the prices for mats go up for everyone perhaps?

People seems to think that expecting an enchanter to DE items and spread the loot is Okay while at same time a skinner/miner/ herbalist keeping their spoils from inside an instance or dungeon is fine. A lot of us don't see it that way. If people do not want to share the ore/herbs or whatever, don't just expect me to use my profession for your gain. Many times we will, but enchanters should have that choice if they want to or not.

Even if they did make Disenchanting its own separate profession, would we still have this discussion because you want the armor/weapons you get disenchanted? I'm willing to bet so. Letting enchanters stay how they are benefits everyone- Lower cost mats, and a more abundant amount of enchanters who know the enchants all end game players need.

Wow, I hardly know where to begin...
(1) No one is being penalized unless they are already causing their group to be dysfunctional, in which case I'm perfectly happy with them being penalized.
(2) Higher supply of mats -> lower price at the same quantity demanded, not higher price.
(3) I'd be perfectly happy if I herbed an instance node, and it autorolled and gave the herb to the highest party member...
(3a) ...that's if I'd actually herbed an instance node since... ghost mushrooms? I don't play penny-ante poker, either - complaining about occasional instance herbs is like complaining that the cloth off mobs isn't distributed fairly - it's not worth worrying about.
(4) Even if you ninja'd every single instance drop, you could still make more in less time DE'ing underpriced AH greens and/or LW/JC crafted items with favorable recipes. It doesn't affect the profitability of the class as a whole. There's no realistic scenario where instances would contribute the majority of an enchanter's income.
(4a) The total effect is a slight redistribution of a small amount of enchanting mats. Even if the AH price goes down by 10%, that's within the normal fluctuation. Over the last three months, the market-clearing price for Infinite Dust on my server has gone from 3.5g to 2.5g to 4.25g to 1.75g. There's no way this change would have anything like that kind of effect.
(4b) Most instance drops will DE to shards, not dust or essences. The shard market is already dominated by the fact that BoE blues are obsolete.
(5) Due to (4), the supply of enchanters will not change, and the availability of enchants will not change, in fact, due to (2), they'll be more available for non-enchanters.
#31 Nov 19 2009 at 5:14 AM Rating: Good
Vilaca wrote:
So you want to penalize enchanters because at this moment they are able to make gold off their profession? I'm failing to see why having DE as a profession and nerfing enchanters is a good idea. So less people can disenchant armor and the prices for mats go up for everyone perhaps?


Nobody is seriously suggesting that Disenchanting should be an extra profession. They're saying that enchanting is a production profession and it's the only production profession that comes with it's own gathering profession. The other production professions are alchemy, inscription, blacksmithing, jewelcrafting, leatherworking, and engineering. All of those require a completely seperate gathering profession in order to gather the base materials that their profession needs in order to function. JCs can't prospect without ore. Scribes can't mill without herbs. See where this is going?

The only increase to supply that this change will create is the supply that is absent from a given server's economy due to enchanters refusing to D/E in dungeon runs. That's it. Compared to the random world drops, quest rewards, and crafted materials shipped to D/E alts to manage, it's a drop in the bucket.

#32 Nov 19 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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422 posts
rusttle wrote:
And of course there's no other tradeskill that depends on boss drops for high end recipes, is there Count? :rollseyes:


I never made that claim at all. Try and understand what I am posting before replying. Here it is again to help you along:

I wrote:
rusttle wrote:

That's not a bonus in my book - I'd much rather buy all my xmutes off the vendor of give him some rare herbs like you chanters do instead of depending on the RNG.


Enchanters have to depend on RNG for some recipes too. Unless you know how I can go buy Enchant Weapon - Blade Ward, Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining, Enchant Weapon - Mongoose, etc. etc.


See, I even quoted the part of your post that I was addressing to try and make it easier for you, but apparently that wasn't enough. You were claiming that enchanters buy all their recipes and do not depend on RNG; I refuted that claim with specific examples. Nowhere in my reply do I state: (1) Enchanting is the only profession to rely on RNG for recipes, (2) No other profession has recipes that drop off dungeon/world mobs. I know you didn't like being proven wrong, but your reply is ridiculous. Oh yeah, and reading comprehension goes a long way.
#33 Nov 19 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
CountFenris wrote:
rusttle wrote:
And of course there's no other tradeskill that depends on boss drops for high end recipes, is there Count? :rollseyes:


I never made that claim at all. Try and understand what I am posting before replying. Here it is again to help you along:

I wrote:
rusttle wrote:

That's not a bonus in my book - I'd much rather buy all my xmutes off the vendor of give him some rare herbs like you chanters do instead of depending on the RNG.


Enchanters have to depend on RNG for some recipes too. Unless you know how I can go buy Enchant Weapon - Blade Ward, Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining, Enchant Weapon - Mongoose, etc. etc.


See, I even quoted the part of your post that I was addressing to try and make it easier for you, but apparently that wasn't enough. You were claiming that enchanters buy all their recipes and do not depend on RNG; I refuted that claim with specific examples. Nowhere in my reply do I state: (1) Enchanting is the only profession to rely on RNG for recipes, (2) No other profession has recipes that drop off dungeon/world mobs. I know you didn't like being proven wrong, but your reply is ridiculous. Oh yeah, and reading comprehension goes a long way.


I think the point they were trying to make is that some professions base the acquisition of new recipes entirely on random luck and RNG (Northrend Alchemy/Inscription Reasearch come to mind) whereas others have a lot of patterns that are available from vendors in Dalaran.
#34 Nov 19 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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422 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
I think the point they were trying to make is that some professions base the acquisition of new recipes entirely on random luck and RNG (Northrend Alchemy/Inscription Reasearch come to mind) whereas others have a lot of patterns that are available from vendors in Dalaran.


That may be, but I was referring to these two posts:

rusttle wrote:
like you chanters do instead of depending on the RNG.


rusttle wrote:
And of course there's no other tradeskill that depends on boss drops for high end recipes, is there Count? :rollseyes:


The first one is untrue, and the second one shows a complete ignorance of what I had written.
#35 Nov 21 2009 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
So you want to penalize enchanters because at this moment they are able to make gold off their profession?


Really? Missed where anyone said that - care to quote?

Quote:
I'm failing to see why having DE as a profession and nerfing enchanters is a good idea.


Its not - we're just pointing out to the cry babies that want to be able to loot skins/herbs/mines that if they consider that to be fair, then in order to be completely fair, DE has to be a separate profession like skin/herb/mine.

Quote:
So less people can disenchant armor and the prices for mats go up for everyone perhaps?


Well if less people can DE and the price goes up then isn't that a good thing for you - you make it sound like a bad thing?

Quote:
People seems to think that expecting an enchanter to DE items and spread the loot is Okay while at same time a skinner/miner/ herbalist keeping their spoils from inside an instance or dungeon is fine.


See your second point - if you want fair, then DE has to be a second profession like herb/skin/mine - can't have your cake and eat it too kid.

I might also point out that the way you phrased that gives the distinct impression that you feel that anything that anyone doesn't need you have a right to in order to shard it for yourself.

Quote:
Even if they did make Disenchanting its own separate profession, would we still have this discussion because you want the armor/weapons you get disenchanted?


Ah, so I was correct - you do feel that all greed items should go to you.

See, here's the difference between disenchanting and mine/herb/skin.

If there's no chanter, I still get value from an item in that I can sell it or give it to an alt.

If there's no skin/mine/herb then you get ZERO benefit because you can't skin/mine/herb.
#36 Nov 22 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Default
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104 posts
way to try and put words into my mouth. I even said in a previous post, everyone is entitled to roll on loot from a boss. The point I am trying to make (please read slow here to try and comprehend) is that as an enchanter, I have the choice to let my profession be used or not. miners/LW have the choice to allow others to roll on nodes that are in dungeons... it is NOT my right to demand that I get a share of the spoils. If I am running a dungeon with a group of people it is MY choice to DE for everyone or not. Now saying that, I add that in order for me to do this, the group has to do it in a fair way... I get ALL none needed loot , then at the end I will DE the pieces and everyone rolls on them. However only one per person to keep it as fair as possible.

So no I don't feel all greed items should go to me, but if the group I am in doesn't want to distribute loot to EVERYONE fairly, they can just sell the armor and I'll just DE for guild mates who are on run with me.

And you are the one making it sound like disenchant should be a separate profession. :)
#37 Nov 22 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent
I think that at the end of the day, the complaints are pointless.

Enchanting as a profession won't be harmed by this. If enchanters were already D/Eing for their PUGs before 3.3, this change will come as a convenience for them.

If they weren't D/Eing for PUGs because it was a hassle, this change will come as a convenience for them

If they weren't D/Eing for PUGs because they decided through their flawed reasoning that doing so was helping to keep their market inflated, they'll be pissed by this change.

And I'll mock them.

That is all.
#38 Nov 27 2009 at 12:53 AM Rating: Good
31 posts
Ok, after reading this whole thread I notice that the whole point of the change has somehow escaped everyone here. When we start using cross realm instances, you will not be able to trade things to people on a different server than you. So.... this means you simply CAN'T de that BOP item and roll for the shard at the end. Everyone makes this big thing about it, and I must admit I agree with many of the points. I am an enchanter and the thought of my skill being not completely under my control kinda weirds me out just a bit. While the fact remains the change is due to a technical hurdle that Blizz would rather use this bandaid on than properly fix (though that might be unfair, this bandaid seems to be a bit too extravagant to claim they didn't attempt to fix it proper).

So, basically, don't say you'll take all the loot, DE it and distribute it after the run if you're doing cross server runs. That won't work. You *won't be able* to give those people their loot. Period. You can't trade with them. Not won't... *can't*.
#39 Nov 28 2009 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ok, after reading this whole thread I notice that the whole point of the change has somehow escaped everyone here. When we start using cross realm instances, you will not be able to trade things to people on a different server than you. So.... this means you simply CAN'T de that BOP item and roll for the shard at the end. Everyone makes this big thing about it, and I must admit I agree with many of the points. I am an enchanter and the thought of my skill being not completely under my control kinda weirds me out just a bit. While the fact remains the change is due to a technical hurdle that Blizz would rather use this bandaid on than properly fix (though that might be unfair, this bandaid seems to be a bit too extravagant to claim they didn't attempt to fix it proper).


If one more enchanter says that this change makes it so DE isn't completely under their control, I may have to shoot someone.

JUST ROLL GREED.

There's your control. Happy? You have JUST AS MUCH control as before. The only thing you lose is the ability to ninja all the shards. And, honestly, that's a good thing.
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#40 Nov 28 2009 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
That emphasis on control does kinda make me wonder if there's some deeper issue going on with those peeps.

The ones who feel its going to hurt their pockets I can understand.

The ones who feel its unfair that they can't roll on other people's gathering skills I can understand.

But this whole "I'm losing control of my free gathering skill" thing, I don't know - seems to call for a pseudo psychological examination of the folks saying that.

Like I said, I've got a chanter and while I do realize that the downside is that I'll get a few less shards on that toon due to people simply shard rolling rather then having me gather the shards and occasionally forget or not care at the end of the run (no, I don't disband and hearth real fast - I always say "everyone roll for shards") I know that I'll get far more in the long run from being able to shard stuff that I'd of otherwise ended up merchanting due to the chanter staying quiet - that's a win for my chanter in my book.
#41 Nov 28 2009 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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The ONLY thing I'm worried about with this, is if Blizz doesn't automatically change DE rolls to Greed rolls if someone else chooses it.

Would ***** a lot of people out of drops if they didn't.
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#42 Nov 29 2009 at 1:14 AM Rating: Decent
I'd think that DE rolls would be on par with greed and need would trump all as usual - just upgrade the button panel to GREED, DE, NEED and it should be kewl.

I wonder if this will result in cross server enchanting becoming possible - had someone want to do an enchant on my toon tonight but it wouldn't even let me put the item in the no trade slot.

I'm sure there'll be a few bugs at first, probably something stupid like if someone gets a needy or greedy achievement the item accidentally shards or certain items just always shard/wont shard, etc.
#43 Nov 29 2009 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
31 posts
Quote:
If one more enchanter says that this change makes it so DE isn't completely under their control, I may have to shoot someone.

JUST ROLL GREED.

There's your control. Happy? You have JUST AS MUCH control as before. The only thing you lose is the ability to ninja all the shards. And, honestly, that's a good thing.


Yeah.. I guess you missed the memo where DE and Greed have equal weight. Way to keep up with current events here... oh wait that's not current it's been that way almost a month.

So.. back to the fact that the control, the choice I have to use my skill or not, is being taken away in some small fashion. I'm sorry if some of you want to call me crazy if I'd choose to not freely DE for some schmuck scrub that just wiped us for the 3rd time screaming "Leeroooooy Jennnnnkinnnnnnnzzzzzz!!!1!" and is getting dropped from the party after we loot this last trash before we go further, my choice, my control. Yep, that's me, bring on the straightjacket cause I'm obviously a nutcase. Oh, and thanks for calling me a ninja, since any shards I have left go in the guild bank afterwards. Nice. I appreciate that.
#44 Dec 02 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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1. Yes, I had yet to see that. Okay, so you have slightly less control. You still have every chance to win the greed roll, though. So it wouldn't be as bad as the "Top x rollers get a shard" system that usually happens now. You could end up with all of them. But, I'll admit you have less control than I thought. Still, there is a chance it'll be a setting you enable. And, if enough people QQ, it probably will get one.

2. I never called you a ninja. I said that (thinking the greed option overrode the DE option), the only thing you lost was the ABILITY to ninja. And I didn't mean "you" you. I meant "you" as in "the Enchanter in the group." You know. Everyone trades you items and your hearth, etc. I'm just saying is that this can't happen now. I didn't say, "Haha, now your ninja'ing ways are over."

Much like, changing from Master Looter when I'm lead to Round Robin (or whatever) dampers my ability to ninja. I WOULDN'T do it, but it hampers my ability to nonetheless.
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
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